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nicole-amdg
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| Posted: Feb 03 2010 at 11:52am | IP Logged
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My 10yo son is very good at mental math, but we're behind in math--we just got stuck for a couple of years and never caught up. We used MCP very early, which he liked well enough, but we switched to Math-U-See to compensate for other problems and got through Gamma. He liked it at first but the last year took a bad turn, don't know why but I suspect a few reasons...
Now we're using Saxon 5/4--just started, and he hates it. He's bored--he's capable of higher concepts but we're stuck reviewing stuff because I'm afraid of missing something. He doesn't like the written work (no consumables, so he has to copy), and maybe just has some problems with school and discipline in general (in short, what I think we had with MUS and would have with anything). I don't have a *lot* of time to spend on designing a curriculum from scratch (though I'd be happy to target areas that I know need work), and I don't want to bounce him around programs, relearning stuff over and over while trying to make sure any holes are covered!
So, what I'm asking is: Can anyone recommend a way to 1) assess weak areas and mastery and 2) address those specific areas, so that we can dispense with the boredom issue at least, and I have a reliable guide in moving him to where he needs to be? I'll stick with Saxon, or go back to Math-U-See, or even MCP as needed; I just don't want to speed him along and miss something in the process. I pulled CA's math standards and I'm trying to devise a sort of checklist--"what your 5th grader needs to know" kind of thing. And I'm leaning heavily toward an online program called ALEKS--anybody have any experience with it? Any other ideas that might help (him or me   ) would be welcome, too.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Feb 03 2010 at 11:57am | IP Logged
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I've heard that the "key to.." series is great for addressing specific areas.
Also, instead of reviewing everything.. could you do some sort of chapter review page or test and then only go back and do those things that he didn't get right?
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ALmom
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| Posted: Feb 03 2010 at 1:15pm | IP Logged
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Nicole:
I assume you have Saxon so here is how we use it with a strong mental math kid who really hates to write and copy and can get slowed down, bogged down and bored.
First - If you haven't done a placement test with Saxon, do it and put him at the level where he tests. If you have then - take tests in 5/4 until they get below a 90 or 95%. That gives you a place to start in the book. A good bit of Saxon is repetetion ad naseum. I think the first 1/3 of every book is review, at least and then they still have all these things throughout just about every book. Instructions in how to do something is more thorough in the book where it is first introduced. However, if you come across a stumbling point in a later book - just pull out the instructions from that book. The new Saxon generally references exactly which chapter a concept is found. It really is OK to skip some problems - even sometimes some books.
Then look at what he missed on the tests he took before he got less than the 90% (or on the placement tests). Be sure to circle those kind of problems in assignments you make.
Then, in the book, circle in light pencil, all the problems that deal with the new concept taught and be sure to assign the practice problems. Circle any other problems that resemble the ones he has missed in the past say 10 or so lessons and a few that are tricky. (I look at the solutions manual quickly to look for problems that will result in things like 0 as a place holder in the middle of a long division problem or where you have to know some finer points (I know my kids continually get stumped over when you distribute and when you don't or in order of operations so I am sure to circle those kinds of problems very, very often - things that will require that they bother to think about it and even periodically spot check by adding that type of problem in even if they haven't missed it in a while.
Then you can do a full lesson just before the test just to make sure there aren't any things overlooked.
Once a child does a problem type correctly (especially the trickiest kind) for 10 lessons - I no longer circle it unless he misses it again somewhere, other than a very occassional spot check on things that I know have been patterns for my own children.
We proceed like this through Saxon.
The other I will point out for a very good mental math kid - often most of their mistakes are going too fast in their head. Part of the reason you make these kids show all their work (and they HATE it) is because they often have an intuitive feel for math, do it in their head but don't pay attention to the step by step process involved in getting there and once the numbers or concepts get too large to do in their head (for some kids this won't happen until Algebra or so) they get burned. It will burn them by Algebra I if they haven't gotten it down by then. I have attempted to prove to these kids that they really do have to show all their work. It is a continual battle - but they are finally convinced - and I will not accept work unless they put it in a certain systematic way so I can follow their steps. That way, I also know what it is they aren't catching and know what to explain. If they just don't see a negative sign, it is one thing - but sometimes it is that they didn't quite catch the finer point about what happens with parenthesis and where they are located  . You like to make sure you at least point these things out.
You really can make any math program work - so use what you have around unless you just need an inexpensive supplement for a topic or two here and there. (Developmental math or Key to Math both seem to do this). So would going back for a concept in a younger book just to reintroduce something quickly and move on in the book you are in.
Good luck from someone who has a kid like you describe
Janet
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LeeAnn
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| Posted: Feb 03 2010 at 2:39pm | IP Logged
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Have you thought about doing something completely different like CLAA Classical Arithmetic I? He certainly wouldn't be bored! Students can start anywhere from age 7 to 12 or up.
It's an online math course and teaches principles first then puts them into practice. Multiplication and Division are taught in just one or two lessons. It might be a nice change from workbook or textbook math which all have different schedules for when concepts are introduced.
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Bethany
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| Posted: Feb 03 2010 at 2:56pm | IP Logged
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I probably shouldn't be posting anything because my oldest is only 7, so I haven't worked as far as all of you in teaching math, but I'll use my own experience in math. I always did well in Math and was in the class of kids who were put a year ahead, into pre-algebra, and we were always one year ahead of the rest of our class. I also have a degree in finance, which included a lot of math. I've just recently discovered and learned so many math techniques that I never even thought of before because the "show your work" rule was so ingrained. In class, we wouldn't get credit, or get marked wrong, if we didn't show every step. I think in a lot of ways this stifled my creative thinking in math. It's like my husband and I were saying to each other that we knew people could work these long, complicated problems mentally, we just didn't know how. We were, and still are, bogged down in trying to show the steps in our heads and you just can't keep up with them all.
I might tell my child to work whatever mentally, write out what they need to, and any problem worked incorrectly, they'll have to work out again and show their steps so we can identify what went wrong. That might slow them down enough to make them pay attention, because they don't want to write it all out. Just a thought.
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nicole-amdg
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| Posted: Feb 03 2010 at 3:14pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
The other I will point out for a very good mental math kid - often most of their mistakes are going too fast in their head. Part of the reason you make these kids show all their work (and they HATE it) is because they often have an intuitive feel for math, do it in their head but don't pay attention to the step by step process involved in getting there and once the numbers or concepts get too large to do in their head (for some kids this won't happen until Algebra or so) they get burned. It will burn them by Algebra I if they haven't gotten it down by then.
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This is exactly what I have run into, and one of the things that is making things so (ahem) difficult right now. He detests writing the steps. With some advice from his adviser (we're with STAA) I allow him to give just the answer for much of the simple stuff but I put my foot down for the word problems, where we both need to see the progression/logic of his solutions.
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greengables
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I apologize in advance for this LONG post; I got carried away!
I have a lot of experience with this!!!! As a matter of fact, I currently have a 10 year old ds that sounds a lot like your ds. He is my eighth child and I have been down this road before.
I have heard that one either loves or hates Saxon. I guess I think of it as a means to an end. My experience with Saxon varies though I have used Saxon at some point with all of my children. Our oldest son and firstborn had such a hard time with Saxon 54 that I had him use the Saxon 54 text twice (that is two years in a row from start to finish)thinking he didn't understand the concepts the first year. Now I look back and laugh at how unnecessary that was.) I can laugh at some of my past mistakes! ha ha! This son went on to graduate from the United States Naval Academy despite his poor mother!!!
With another son, now 18 years old, I took way too long to choose another curriculum. After Saxon Alg I which took several years for him to complete, I finally switched to Teaching Textbooks. Though he is very smart, not staying focused and daydreaming seemed to be his problem. He was very happy with Teaching Textbooks and successfully completed Algebra II. I have to say that he did not utilize the cd's and computer helps of Teaching Textbooks, but he did seem to understand the presentation so much better and for whatever reason was so much happier with it. Funny though, now he is back to Saxon for Advanced Math. This is a real challenge for him and thankfully he is pushing himself. He has humbly asked his younger 15 year old sister , who is truly a math person and 3/4 of the way through Saxon's Advanced Math book,to help him through the first half of the book. I am very proud of him and love being able to be a support person for him rather than a NAG! This morning it was a delight to see dd helping ds on the couch.
Our 10yo ds used Saxon 54 the year before last and it was VERY difficult for him. The work/concepts were NOT too hard; it is just that it was painfully slow due to the copying. He loves to do mental math and is slowly learning that sometimes it is faster to write down the problems even if the writing slows him down rather than to do everything in his head which at some point is just impossible! Well, towards the end of that Saxon 54 year, I realized that it was not too wise to let his math consume so much of his day. I am sorry to say that I often let him work/daydream for up to 2 hours on his math AND I KNEW BETTER from my experience with my 18yo.
This year I switched my 10 yo ds to Singapore math and NO, though I am not totally unhappy with this decision, we are no longer using it because I feel it just does not have enough review built into it, ... but...it was a good semester break from the grueling Saxon. I left Singapore for several reasons primarily because I felt he would fall behind, because of the lack of review, and because it was more parent intensive than I thought it would be probably because I was unfamiliar with it.
After leaving Singapore at the end of first semester, I felt I had two options. I know there are probably many more, but I didn't want to open THAT can of worms. Option one,go back to saxon and Option 2, Teaching Textbooks. Since Teaching Textbooks is quite expensive and since I already own Saxon, I gave my ds a Saxon placement test which I printed off of their website. He has now begun Saxon 7/6 and I do sit beside him and at this point allow him to do as many problems orally as he likes. The pressure of finishing a lesson a day or even half a lesson a day is gone! Hooray! He accomplishes whatever he can in 45 minutes to one hour. If this is not a good fit for him for the rest of this year, I will know it and will be open to another solution such as Teaching Textbooks.
One thing to keep in mind is how much review is in Saxon.
I really recommend you give your son the Saxon Placement test AND I do recommend a few things for Saxon users.
1. Limit a fourth/fifth grader and really most children to about an hour a day or it can dominate your child's day.
2. With a student new to Saxon math especially, you might want to have your child first take the tests only to find out where they are as it is soooo easy in the beginning of the book and then start the lessons when your child begins to miss more problems.
3. Some people have the children do odd or even or just pick certain problems. I have not done this, but my 15 year old daughter reminded me that this is what she does. As she does not like to waste time in doing unnecessary BUSY work, she reads the lesson, works all the practice problems, and then works all the problems in that lesson that are the NEW concept as well as any problems she has been having difficulty with. Twice a week, she does an entire lesson.
Keep in mind that some children really struggle with Saxon math. I am going back to it because it is just a good solid approach with a lot of review. When children have frustrations with math, using an easier math can reinforce what they already know plus build their confidence making math a more enjoyable subject for them IF they are not too bored. To make Saxon more palatable for my son, I am still allowing him to do a lot of his math orally. I don't want to overwhelm him, but I do want him to progress. Yes, it is more difficult for me - it takes my time, but, in the end, I don't feel any HARM will come to him because of it.
I think it is great that you are willing to change curriculum midyear seeing that what she is using is not working positively for her. That says a lot for you as a teacher.
The Bible says in Romans 8:28, "We know that all things work for good for those who love God..." My math version is, "We know that all things work for good for those who persevere."
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Greengables - wife to best friend and mother to 11 blessings on earth
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stacykay
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Nicole,
with my oldest, we did just what Janet suggested. I had taken him out of public school after 5th grade and was horrified by the enormous gaps in his ability to do math (he had been all "A's" at the ps!)
The only thing I did differently was to assign either odds or evens for the practice problems. I did look at the ones he got wrong, (love that Saxon references the lessons for their problems) and if he got too many of that kind wrong, we would go back and review that lesson.
I only had this ds home for 6-8th grades, and in those three years, we went from 5/4 to Alg. 1/2. He scored well enough on the high school placement test to go into the honor's math at his Catholic high school, and he did great. He still loves calculus and has taken enough of it for a minor (he is a college senior now.)
A possibility for appealing to his mental math might be Teaching Textbooks, as there isn't the formal list of written answers since you are answering on the computer. But my #4ds does do a lot of writing on scrap paper to get the answers. Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to skip lessons that cover already acquired knowledge.
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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greengables wrote:
I think it is great that you are willing to change curriculum midyear seeing that what she is using is not working positively for her. |
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Oops! I meant your son! Sorry! I was recently talking with a homeschool mother about math her daughter's math.
Silly me
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AndieF
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I have two 10 year olds that I'm homeschooling - one 4th grader and one 5th grader and they are both using Saxon. The 4th grader (girl) is using Saxon 54 and the 5th grader (boy) is using Saxon 65. We started using Saxon at the beginning of this year after using MUS last year (I do like MUS, but we switched the older kids to Saxon for a bunch of reasons.)
Anyway, it took me until last month to not make them do the whole lesson. LOL Call me stubborn, but I was afraid of them not getting the material. Now, they do the problems in lesson practice, and then from mixed practice, I have them do three or four problems from the lesson that are review, and then all the problems from the lesson that are new. If they seem to be having difficulties with the past few lessons, then we will do all even or odd problems of mixed practice. It is just too much for either of them if they have to do ALL of the problems. I also put a time limit on math so that it doesn't drag out and make everybody's life difficult. So far, things are going much better.
If you are going to stick with Saxon, I'd recommend having him take the tests from the book until he got more than a couple wrong, and that should give you a good idea of where he is at.
That isn't what we did. What we did was start the year at least 20 lessons in. We are now to about lesson 60, and if they work on a lesson a day with tests on Friday, we should get through most of the book.
We don't have the DVDs for Saxon, but sometimes I wish that I did. I use the Math U See DVDs for the younger kids (2nd and 3rd grade) and it really helps them to understand the concept before they start a lesson.
Andie
Montgomery Academy
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pmeilaen
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| Posted: Feb 08 2010 at 8:28pm | IP Logged
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I would first take the Learning Style Test from Mercy Academy. That test will recommend suitable math programs for your child. To fill in gaps we've used the Key to Series and also Math Mammoth.
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: math-minded 10yo behind--need suggestions
