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JennGM
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| Posted: Feb 01 2006 at 7:47pm | IP Logged
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I was reading this thread on music lessons and wanted to know some more specifics about Suzuki. My son is 2 1/2. We want piano lessons, as we have a piano, but I want to look into violin, also (that was dh's family's area).
I'm searching for some good teachers that won't be a long drive for us in this area, but in the meantime, I'd like to
1) read more about this method, since I was taught traditionally and only heard mostly negatives and
2) listen to cds...someone suggested listening and familiarizing the child and oneself before even starting the lessons.
So what books to recommend? Websites? Which cds? Already I have heard controversy, because someone highly recommended the piano cds recorded by Haruko Kataoka, where my one sister's teacher said avoid them.
What do I look for in a good Suzuki teacher?
One other question: when your children were really small, did you decide that you wanted the best teacher, thinking that your child will probably be serious about the music? Or did you see promise and followed your instincts? Kelly, your family had the musical, especially violin, background. MacBeth, at what point did you family become so musical? Janet, what about your family?
It's a strange question, but the reason why I ask this, is my sister had some recommendations of piano and violin teachers in the area...but of course, they are far from me. To hear: "She is a super-intense teacher, though, and requires a year of observations before she will even take a beginner. Also, she only takes new students during certain periods. A lot of her students go on to be professional musicians." makes me think $$$$ and forcing your child's interests. My son is too young for that. So how and when do you decide the intense training? If they show remarkable talent? It seems like a chicken and egg question....
I don't want to force a child to do this, and hence "waste" money...so how much is too much?
And what is this "observations"? Is this by both the parent(s) and child or just the parent to decide? A year of observation? How can you make a young child sit still that long?
Why, oh, why, does this have to be so complicated and cost so much?  Some of these questions are just rhetorical...I'm trying to figure this all out and try to figure out a musical budget to present to dh.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Kelly
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| Posted: Feb 01 2006 at 8:44pm | IP Logged
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Jenn,
Read Suzuki's book, "Nurtured by Love". I loved the book, although my kids have never been really hard-core Suzuki students. There's another one that a lot of people have loved called, "Teaching from the Balance Point", I believe.
Everyone has different viewpoints on the topic of When to Start Music Lessons. I just know that I began ds at 4 and for him, it was too early, even though he had expressed interest in violin. However, he had a lovely, loving, enthusiastic teacher (key with children, I'd skip the intensive teacher, personally, while they're young), so no real harm was done. I guess I got the message, though, when I found his little Suzuki violin on the floor of the living room, with a perfect little Nike footprint smack in the middle it. He *thought* he'd get to quit violin at that point, but of course, I couldn't let him after that performance. However, after the Punishment Period (three lessons a week for a couple of months until Summer began, it was a pretty destructive action, afterall...) we "loosened up" quite a bit. He's still at it, at age 16, but has only stayed with it because music lessons of some type are a requirement in the household and he figured he'd be so behind if he started a new instrument, and would get stuck playing Froggy in the Pond , or something. Ironically, though, he has a real feel for the instrument, so maybe one day he'll thank me!
But back to the When To Start Issue...did I learn with all that angst with ds? Nooooooo! I promptly started dd with piano, at age 3! She hated it, too. At least I figured it out sooner and stopped after the requisite year. I then waited until she was happy and eager again, about age 7, and started her on her instrument of choice, violin. She's doing great.
The next three started with traditional piano lessons at around 6. It was the only instrument I could work out so that EVERYONE (violin and piano) has their lessons at the same time----perhaps not the noblest of reasons---but surprise, it's been a good fit for all three. One of the little pianists has asked to take Suzuki violin, but so far, she's done much, much better with piano.
So you see with all these scenarios: instrument chosen by child vs. instrument chosen by mom; that there's been no one Right Way. Contrary to the Suzuki way, starting young has backfired for me---but been a huge success for others. For us, first or second grade has worked out better than younger.
I guess it's a long way of giving a short answer: go with your gut!
Kelly in FL
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JennGM
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| Posted: Feb 02 2006 at 10:08am | IP Logged
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Kelly wrote:
Jenn,
Read Suzuki's book, "Nurtured by Love". I loved the book, although my kids have never been really hard-core Suzuki students. There's another one that a lot of people have loved called, "Teaching from the Balance Point", I believe. |
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Teaching from the Balance Point seems to be a very rare book! Amazon wants $89.95 for a used copy, and I couldn't find any book on www.bookfinder.com! Yikes! My library system stinks...really. Not one Suzuki book.
Kelly wrote:
| Everyone has different viewpoints on the topic of When to Start Music Lessons. I just know that I began ds at 4 and for him, it was too early, even though he had expressed interest in violin. However, he had a lovely, loving, enthusiastic teacher (key with children, I'd skip the intensive teacher, personally, while they're young), so no real harm was done. |
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Oh my! The things we try to get away with! That was an implied question...are you creating possible bad habits or not helping by getting a less qualified teacher at a younger age to get their feet wet? You're saying try a kid-friendly teacher if starting younger, if they show promise, more intensive later.
Kelly wrote:
So you see with all these scenarios: instrument chosen by child vs. instrument chosen by mom; that there's been no one Right Way. Contrary to the Suzuki way, starting young has backfired for me---but been a huge success for others. For us, first or second grade has worked out better than younger.
I guess it's a long way of giving a short answer: go with your gut! |
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Thanks, Kelly! I appreciate it! I don't have a gut feeling yet...except that I need to observe and work with ds in small ways with music to get more feedback.
With traditional piano, it was the idea that the child needed to read before embarking on the lessons. Suzuki doesn't need that, right? But for a small child, piano is harder because the size doesn't adjust like a violin can.
I started late in my lessons, but my younger siblings were younger, around 1st grade. To see the littles' legs dangling playing songs like "Cowboy Charley" at the recitals are just endearing memories! But I digress....
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Kelly
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| Posted: Feb 02 2006 at 10:51am | IP Logged
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Jenn, if I can find my copy of "Teaching from the Balance Point", you're welcome to borrow it. I can't believe they're asking such an exorbitant amount for it...I certainly didn't pay that much for it!
One thing about the Traditional method. Only one of my "little pianists" could read when they began, and he's progressed the slowest of the three! The six year old is moving right along---has really taken to sight reading though she's still not reading words. If you found the right teacher, I wouldn't worry about itthat aspect of the program (assuming the teachers are ok with it, that is).
Kelly in FL
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Feb 02 2006 at 11:09am | IP Logged
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Jenn, look for Suzuki books, videos and more at Shar.
We have had great success with starting young (3), but on violin or cello, not on piano. Piano we start at about 7, but the kids are so familiar with so much music by then that piano comes very easily.
But, as I have been involved in the Suzuki program here for 12 years, I have seen kids who do very well on the piano from age three...one boy, who was four when he played his public debut, needed to be lifted onto the bench, but his little fingers began playing before the teacher got him adjusted.  He is amazing...his name is Tycho, so look for him in the future! And he is not as unique as one might think.
I guess that I believe that exposure is good no matter what age, and you never know what might spark that something that makes the difference. As long as the teacher is gentle and understands little ones, the lessons are worth having.
Lesson length is so CM! A young child should have no more than a 15 minute lesson to begin. If the child does very well right away, you can increase the time slowly. In Libby's case, she moved up quickly, and was taking an hour-long lesson by 5, and practicing for hours. The violin became her second voice, and we were careful never to discourage that.
Teachers tend to be picky about the recordings they like. At the time we began, there were three different Suzuki Violin Book 1 recordings available, and we were instructed to get a certain one. Another teacher, later, preferred another player's work. And this is still the case. Talk about cost! We often have to buy three or four recordings of a piece so Libby can listen and compare. Of course, she is not listening in the same way she was when she was three, but the listening is still very important for style and technique. And videos are even better. and then there are live performances...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. The nice benefit about the music school in the city is the large library with recorded music. They only let the pre-college kids listen in the library, though--no borrowing.
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MacBeth in NY
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MacBeth
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Oh, and while I have the forum open  , Libby has a competition today. She is playing at 3:45. If y'all could take a second to say a quick prayer that she plays her best, we'd be grateful  .
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MacBeth in NY
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JennGM
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MacBeth wrote:
| Oh, and while I have the forum open , Libby has a competition today. She is playing at 3:45. If y'all could take a second to say a quick prayer that she plays her best, we'd be grateful . |
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Prayers coming!
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Jennifer G. Miller
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ALmom
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| Posted: Feb 02 2006 at 5:17pm | IP Logged
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I guess we are the odd balls here, Jenn. I was too ignorant to even think about music or its importance in terms of lessons. I played a lot of CDs in the home because I wanted exposure to good music - that was the sum total. It was a God incidence that led us to music lessons - my dh is into acoustics and was playing with entering music on the computer (which involved dragging me and toddler to his single friends house while I watched them mess around between piano and computer - the friend played piano - my dh and I both stink at anything musical!). When I saw a drawing for a cheap
keyboard, I entered dh - and we won. Within a month dd was picking out Christmas carols on the keyboard by ear. A short time later she started asking for music lessons - and I put it off for a whole year (something I regret now).
I didn't know the first thing about music teachers, asked my sis who had dc in lessons and went with the first teacher mentioned. I was not all that concerned about anything at the time - other than not killing the interest with too much pressure and intensity. The teacher was a good first teacher - taught her to read music, let her pick out pieces, etc. She did not get a lot of theory, was not required to memorize anything and had a new piece every week. She was interested in playing some church music, so the teacher arranged something with our church, etc. At one point, especially when this dd started talking about majoring in music (surprise to me), this teacher insisted that we find another teacher. We interviewed several teachers, and our dd picked her teacher. She happened to pick the "strictest" and supposedly most demanding and the best teacher in the area. We really love her - she is strict only in the sense that she does point out errors and pieces are worked on until they are really learned, she does expect you to practice and not waste her time - But she is very, very positive and supportive and does not just push superstars. Obviously, when our dd started with her, she was way behind in theory and in memorization of pieces and her technique needed a lot of work. She had never done a competition and had only done very informal recitals with unmemorized pieces. There are other teachers that would not have bothered with her and written her off - this teacher gave her all the same opportunities as any of her other students - and our dd blossomed under her guidance. She is now quite competitive in the area, continues to love music and will be majoring in piano performance. All of her teachers in piano are "traditional" teachers, but these traditional teachers are each different - some are better fits for our dd, some offer more opportunities to play in different settings, etc. There was only one Suzuki piano teacher in the area at the time - and this one never had anything positive to say to any of the dc and her students were all quitting or ending up with our dd first teacher as parents tried desperately to undo the harm of too much intensity and not enough encouragement.
Our 8 yo just started piano with our dd current teacher. He is a real attentive dc, loves the piano - and about a dozen other instruments he claims he wants to learn. We have been delighted at how gentle this supposedly "strict" teacher has been with him. At our first meeting she asked him to try various things - I could tell she was checking to see what his left/right awareness was, how well he could coordinate both sides of the body, etc. so that she knew where to start dc. She starts dc at a point where success is guaranteed if they spend a reasonable time at practice and she goes very slowly and gently. Again, we love her and she is a perfect fit for this son.
Our dd (#2) asked to take lessons around 7 and we started her with our dd first teacher (dd was still with her at the time). It turns out this dd wanted piano just because oldest sis was - she had vision problems and cross body difficulties that slowed her down. She always sounded clunky on the piano. She resisted practicing even with this very layed back teacher and came up with ways to beat the system (doing first and last page of theory and skipping all the middle pages, etc.) We insisted on diligence since we were paying for lessons, but allowed her to quit at the end of the year. I do not regret the piano years at all - they were a means of integrating the brain and body over both sides and much more enjoyable means of doing that than drawing various circles on the chalkboard. She took up Cello at 11 and was naturally better at this. She resisted at practice for a time. She quit (for financial reasons in our house) with the idea that we are looking for a Cello and then will resume lessons. She has no desire to do anything beyond play Cello for her family and as a service. She actually has quite a bit of natural talent - but not the same burning intensity of her sister towards music. That is fine - we want her to have the music for its own sake and her enjoyment. We are not sure which teacher to go with when we return. The Suzuki teacher we were with was quite insistent on good form and we appreciate that - and seems to introduce music reading, theory early enough not to make this a huge issue. But it is more of a personality thing - our dd really likes her and respects her, but this teacher seems more competition - goal-oriented which is not at all motivating with this dd and our 2nd dd sometimes has difficulty understanding her due to a thick accent(she has been a perfect coach for oldest dd chamber group). Our 2nd dd has matured over the year break and now has a sense of really practicing so she can improve and play more variety so this may work now. One cello teacher in the area is considered the "best" but does not pay much attention to form (some really bad habits form in her students unless they have had a pickier teacher first) but is noted for working very well with little dc. She is a "traditional" teacher.
Our oldest started violin at 13, after many years of piano. The piano helped her make the transition. You are not supposed to be able to start strings late and really progress - our dd may never be a soloist on violin but she is the concert master (while keeping on top with piano and also taking organ lessons). Our orchestra is not one of the world class orchestras - but it is well -respected - so I guess what I am saying is that I am no longer a believer in the necessity of starting an instrument at 2 or 3. I really think it is such an individual thing - family finances, child's readiness, etc. I do agree that early music exposure is important. However, I do think the Suzuki book recommended was a wonderful read and gave me a lot to ponder and quite a bit that rang true with me. It said a lot about what to look for in the teacher.
Yes, our dd had to work hard to make up for lost time - and she hasn't gotten comfortable enough on the violin to solo with memorized pieces (Suzuki probably has something going here in how they help dc with this skill from an early age) but she is having a ball in orchestra (and will be playing in the college orchestra)and chamber groups where you don't play from memory. We started with a Suzuki teacher that was a wonderful person, encouraging and didn't discourage dd from starting at 13. Since dd was 13 and reading music - and her goal was to get in the senior orchestra, this teacher adjusted her teaching to the child's goals - so we didn't have a completely traditional approach or a completely Suzuki approach. We credit this teacher with awakening a love of the violin in our dd (our dd started violin sheerly as a means to get into the orchestra so she would be around a large, diverse group of peers). The teacher was sensitive to issues of a 13 yo. She tended to hesitate to push too hard and was very opposed to competition so as our dd fell in love with the violin and then wanted opportunities to compete with violin in chamber groups, etc. we moved on to a teacher that does not accept every student (probably would have turned us down when dd was 13, but took her as a senior and has been able to jump her skill level quite a bit!) It was a delicate thing - not wanting to hurt feelings because we owe quite a bit to this first teacher - but it was time to move on. It has been wonderful and no hard feelings - though I wish her first teacher would have gotten some of the credit for our dd concert-master position.
Our 11 yo son has suppression problems and claims he hates music. We will insist that he take music lessons (either strings, piano or organ) for the brain, cross body integration that it promotes and in order to have a minimal skill in music. Since his "disability" is not a commonly recognized one in our community, we will need a teacher willing to listen to me and be sensitive to some of the coordination problems. He will need an extremely positive teacher or he will simply hate music even more. We suspect that his adament hate of music is a fear of failure. We also don't want him in anything remotely resembling competition as this would further exacerbate confidence issues. We are planning to ask our oldest dd first organ teacher to teach him either organ or piano (whichever he prefers). She expects good form but is not into any of the teacher associations or competitions and just works one individual at a time. Her personality is such - and our relationship is such that I think it will be a good fit for him. As much as I love our dd piano teacher, I just don't think this son would hit it off plus he would be put in a theory class with his younger brother (the one that takes easily to everything) and I just have a gut instinct that this will be a source of discouragement (even though we nor the piano teacher would ever make any overt comparisons).
Our 3yo and 6 yo both want violin. We asked dd about using a student as a teacher and she advised against it. She said that it is just harder to unlearn bad habits and better to go with a really good teacher to start with. Our dd is modeling for them at the moment and gently showing them how to hold their instruments. We plan to begin the 6yo with our dd first violin teacher as soon as we can afford it (all depends on oldest dd and whether or not she gets significant music scholarship from her audition on March 11) and go from there. We did go on e-bay and buy 2 very inexpensive pint size violins. It was a chance we took - but sound quality isn't horrible and at their age a bit of time will be spent in just holding the violin and bow properly.
Boy, have I diverged all over the place. We have not started any of our dc very early. I do not know of any teachers in our area that start dc before age 4 or 5 - but know children who started very early and have done quite well. I think the mom's taught these dc until they got a teacher to take them. Since this is out of the question for musically illiterate me, we do what we can. I also have 6 dc, many medical bills, etc. and music lessons are not cheap (whether you get a good teacher or not). I cannot afford to start dc really early and still have books, food, and other necessaries of life. We play tapes, go to all free concerts we can find, support the older dc that are in music. So while we cannot get lessons early, we do have early exposure. I also have instruments around now - and think that is a plus.
If I could afford it, I would begin dc early but gently or at least try it out and be willing to back off if dc is really not ready. It is wonderful for the eye-brain development and there is something very special in having the emotional outlet of a musical instrument. If it is impossible or too much stress at the moment, then realize that all the insistence on starting early is simply one idea. Any child that really loves the instrument can overcome a lot (even late beginning and less than perfect teaching) if they have the passion for it and the willingness to work hard. You can switch teacher's later if necessary. It can be harder emotionally as you do form real bonds with your teachers - but the good ones understand and continue to be a part of your life even after you move on.
As far as picking out teachers - don't go by basic hearsay. Interview the teacher,and when you have narrowed it down ask for a trial lesson to see how teacher and child work together. What do you want from the teacher? The first teacher does not have to be the one with all the superstars - however, they should teach good form. Does the teacher require participation in competition, simply make it available to the students or have nothing to do with it? Go to a teacher's recital and watch her students. You will notice certain things right away. Does the teacher require her students to take in the summer or does she take off in the summer? We had actually heard rumors that our dd second piano teacher was mean and telling students to find another teacher - I asked her a specific question about encouragement and got a satisfactory answer before I went with her. (This teacher actually described to me that she listened to the student play - found positive things to say first, then pointed out areas to work on including a written list so they can remember. She gives compliments but only deserved ones - that way her compliments mean something. But then she said there is always something a student did well - even if it is that they had all their music, etc. so she could always find something positive to say. She has also said many times that her job is to help the students get better so she cannot ignore mistakes but you can point them out in a kind way or a mean way and it is so much better to do things in a kind way. To this day I cannot figure out why anyone would call her mean, unless they were expecting her to tolerate laziness time after time or put up with disrespectful behavior). You will also be able to see things about the teacher's studio when you interview them. Our current piano teacher is the most organized person in the world, we receive a written bill at the beginning of the month and are expected to pay by the 10th, her hand out even includes where we can park in her driveway (so as not to block her husband). She gives us a written list of competitions at the beginning of the year, and on and on and sends notes home to me to ask about things. Her studio is neat and orderly, she knew exactly where every piece of music was, etc. She gave us a copy of her studio policies on our first visit to interview each other. Our dd current violin teacher's studio is a wreck, she may forget you have a lesson, never knows where any music is, sometimes posts false information about when she will be there and when not, she probably wouldn't have accurate information about our payment status, etc. She is an excellent violinist and teacher - for our oldest who does her own driving, this is fine and I pay by the lesson so I don't have to worry about the books. I do have to go out and get her music whereas the piano teacher gets it and adds it to the bill. All these things, while not essentials, are factors to consider. If you become frazzled by logistical hassles, then dc sense it and they become tense (esp the younger ones). With the violin teacher, as good as she is and as well as it works with our oldest, it would drive me nuts with young children I was having to drive to and from lessons. She is a bit of a maverick in her personality - she and our oldest get along fine but it is good for you to see the child and teacher together before deciding as clashes may show up then. Our oldest interviewed one piano teacher that she decided not to go with - the teacher was a very, very good teacher and highly recommended by the teacher we went with. However, dd sensed right away that something didn't click. This teacher seemed to see all her faults and not really want to be bothered with all the catch up required - the teacher we went with seemed to see the possibilities of how she could help our dd improve. None of this was spoken - just sensed after an interview where our dd played a piece for the teacher. Also a deciding factor was a bird in the studio. The bird drove my dd nuts. Both were excellent teachers and it all depended on that intangible fit between teacher and student.
Any one of the approaches could work depending on the temperment of the child and what you are expecting out of lessons. I would only be concerned if the personality fit was bad, the pressure too intense or the teacher was sloppy about form. You would naturally expect some instruction about bow hold and motion of arm on violin and curvature of the hand on the piano for instance. If nothing at all is being said here, then you probably want a different first teacher. Also don't hesitate to ask about price. It is funny, but in our area some of the best teachers also have the best prices - and long waiting lists. You can get on a waiting list for a teacher. You can make a better informed decision after getting all the information even if some things are more important than others. Also if you really want a teacher in your area, ask a very respected teacher that is too far of a drive for you. They will recommend good teachers - and then you can look for personality fit - a very pushy teacher may not be for you, but they might be able to recommend someone else in your area (and they are recommending based on musical teaching skills - so the teachers that recommend each other won't all have the same personalities or be similiarly pushy). They will weed out the really silly teachers for you.
If you are looking for a teacher for a 2 1`/2 year old then make sure it is someone that does work with young students. Ask what they do - some will be pushy, some not and you will get hints in how they answer your questions. How do they feel about you remaining in the lesson - for a 2 1/2 year old, I'd want to make sure I was welcome to observe (Suzuki will require your participation, so be prepared for that if you have infants and toddlers as well). None of our teachers have ever balked at me sitting in on lessons - even with older dc - even our traditional teachers but I have heard that some do not care for it. I did have to stop attending Suzuki lessons with my dd2 because of a restless nursing toddler who became a distraction to dd - but the teacher accomodated and started videotaping lessons. I couldn't keep up with dd - and was still working on rythm long after she was working on songs so we don't model like a traditional Suzuki lesson). Think about the personality and how it will fit with your dc. Some will only talk about how their students are the best - others will talk about teaching to anyone to help them improve themselves (whether they intend to go on with piano or not) and some will say they are teaching for enjoyment only. You could end up picking a teacher from any one of the above, but at least you know where they are coming from and whether it matches your goals at the moment and you will know you might need to change later. I personally like the middle option best - IF the personality also fits because it leaves more options open and you are less likely to end up with pushiness and pressure than the "my students are the best" or a teacher who is refusing to provide all the other things because they are hiding poor teaching. However, all the approaches have some wonderful teachers in them and the teacher with the "best" students may not be pushy at all and the one who only teaches for enjoyment may be an excellent teacher.
Also, how attentive can your dc be - that is usually a hint at readiness for lessons and how long will the lessons be. Generally Suzuki teachers are more open to younger students but that is not always the case in more suburban areas. We have teachers here that call themselves traditional - but look more like MacBeth's Suzuki teacher's in practice. For what it is worth, we were told by professional musicians (pianist and violinist) to start Suzuki but not stay with it more than a couple of years. I am not sure if this is across the board but suspect this is a regional thing(from MacBeth's posts I think someone in NYC has a different kind of Suzuki teacher than what we have).
This whole music thing has been quite a venture for us - we've been learning as we go. The good news is that our dd who did end up surprising us with a passion and goal to try to break into performance, is still in good shape for achieving her goals despite our meanderings. I think the worst thing we could have done was to kill the interest with too much pressure too soon. Of course, I wish we had started her a bit sooner on violin (13 is considerably later than even the late starters) and transitioned a little sooner to more serious piano study - but she is doing fine, is loving what she is doing and seems to respond quite well to having to work from "behind".
Have fun, do the best you can to find the best overall teacher for your circumstances and don't stress too much about it. Have fun learning what you can along with dc. A basically good, nearby teacher may be better for now than a superb teacher across town - simply because the young child will be less stressed by the time away and you will be less frazzled and more patient and more likely to continue.
Hope this helps. Let us know what you find!
Janet
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JennGM
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| Posted: Feb 12 2006 at 12:39pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for all the advice. I am giving myself some time to do the research and see how much ds has interest. He's very active, so that's another consideration. He can't sit still for very long. That's not bad, but it is a hindrance for a lesson.
I'm back with more questions. 
One of my sisters has her girls taking Suzuki violin lessons since they were little. Three are taking right now, ages 8, 7 and 5. The newly 3 yo will be starting soon....The oldest has been taking since she turned 3 or 3 1/2. My sister adheres to many Montessori methods in her home and education, and gives her girls many opportunities for independence....
But in the violin department, I don't see the girls taking responsibility for their own music. My sister does all the tuning, which I understand is required. But I don't hear the girls even givin input, like "Mommy, that doesn't sound right." or "Can you go back and tune it a bit more" or even plain comments, like "Wow, that kept it's tune!" And so much hand-holding for practice times.
And after 5 years of lessons, my niece plays very mechanically and still the very basic repetoire. How long does "Twinkle, Twinkle" stay in the rotation???
I know some of my observations could be because of personality, temperament, teacher differences, but maybe there are other common denominators and Suzuki approach that I need explained to me. Can you help?
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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ALmom
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It may very well be the particular teacher. In Suzuki, they do continue to play from the beginning repertoire even as they add more and more pieces to their repertoire. That is one of the things that has really bothered my dd who takes cello, but she is 14. At 2 and 3, remember, that the dc do really enjoy repetition - our 11 yo dd did not appreciate it as much. I do understand that repetition and good tone and form are extremely important. Some of the reason she stayed at the same things and didn't move on fast enough for herself was her own fault - not practicing enough or with attention. However, she was also plain bored and sick of Twinkle and rapidly losing interest in the piece and in cello. She was in book 2 when we quit and very bored. This is one of the reasons we would consider another teacher. The teacher also seemed to pick at everything at once and it seemed that dd had to be absolutely perfect on everything repeatedly before moving on. Our dd quickly became bored with the repertoire and lost interest in both practice and the cello. The teacher also tended to tune her instruement for her at lessons without really seeming to train her to it. I think the idea was that they wanted them to really develop a good ear so they wanted it done really well. However, at home, dd messed around on her own. She would get very aggravated if the instruement didn't sound right. IMO it is more important that the teacher helps dd keep an interest whether it "fits" a particular philosophy or not. If dd had had one challenge piece to go with the other Suzuki stuff, she really would have been inspired to do well and would probably have worked more everyday. A more experienced Suzuki teacher or a more flexible one may have done this in recognition of the age at which she was beginning, I don't know.
How much of this is the particular teacher and how much is Suzuki, I'm not certain. However, I do know there is quite a bit of variation in Suzuki teachers. Some of our oldest dd friends had a teacher that seemed to really move all her students at a snails pace and would not even let them see written music until they were well past book 3. Our dd Suzuki violin teacher still wanted a gentle pace and good tone and form, but she introduced music reading a bit earlier (weaker but at least it was introduced) and then her students seemed to move at a pace that was quick enough to avoid the total boredom that others encountered.
With a younger dc, I cannot imagine teaching any other way than what Suzuki describes (imitating a good model, lots of exposure, listening to pieces and not stressing over competitions, etc. but realizing that every dc was capable and deserved the language of music). However, what I have found is that, in some areas like ours, the traditional teachers that accept younger students, teach more like Suzuki describes. I really would investigate who are considered the good teachers in your area. I wouldn't worry so much about whether or not they label themselves Suzuki or Traditional - just how they relate to your child and whether or not their students tend to develop good or bad habits on the instrument. I would read the Suzuki books - they give a great description of what he thought important in a teacher (and I tended to agree with most of his emphasis). But just like everything else, there are teachers that call themselves Suzuki, that I doubt he would recognize except in minor, exterior details and traditional teachers that really seem to incorporate the best of Suzuki's findings in their own studios.
We wish you the best - hope you find a good fit for your student. Also at a young age, just having the instruement around with good videos might be fun to see what happens. (MacBeth may have better ideas on this than I do as she had younger children actually in music. We are entering our first real forray into this and cannot yet get lessons). We have had a lot of fun with just having the instruements around. Our 3 yo loves to take out the violin, pretend to play something and then bow as we clap for him. His bow is great. We generally help him find the correct shoulder and Jennifer tries to position the violin as best we can with a wiggly, squirmy guy that just wants to look like her and make the bow go really fast across the strings. He pulls it out almost daily - just for fun. We try to make sure he has his hands generally in the correct position and then let him do what he wants. Since the instruement was very inexpensive, it doesn't bother me - although one of us is generally in the room to make sure the violin is returned to the case and not treated like a toy - or the bow isn't used as a sword - something little boys are very inclined to do .
Janet
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JennGM
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ALmom wrote:
| At 2 and 3, remember, that the dc do really enjoy repetition - our 11 yo dd did not appreciate it as much. |
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Janet, your description of your daughter was me to a "T". I started at age 11 and was disgusted by the beginner books. My teacher (traditional) was aware I felt it was "babyish" so she let me set my own pace in going through the books, and then challenged me with outside music for sight reading. I pushed myself so I could play "real" music.
I do understand that a young child loves the repetition. My concern was seeing after 5 years at age 8 (and 4 years with the 7 yo) it almost seemed like it was still the first few lessons. Or is violin that difficult?
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Jennifer G. Miller
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ALmom
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Our dd took to violin quickly - so I do not think it is necessarily the instrument. Violin, unlike the piano, does require you to really hear the notes as the position of the fingers isn't as clear cut as on the piano. I really cannot answer for you sister's children as I'm not their parent, don't know them or their teacher.
I have known Suzuki teachers in our area that moved at a ridiculously slow pace - and the dc eventually got discouraged and gave up. That shouldn't happen - and is not at all what Dr. Suzuki intended. He felt that every child should be enriched with music and everyone could learn to play (he leant heavily on the environment side and didn't seem to think inate talent had anything to do with ability.) He wanted the dc to have exposure to adults that really loved music and the child and then felt everyone would become "talented". Or at least that is my take from reading his work - but really do read it for yourself. He had a lot of very wonderful ideas.
Now I'm really wandering into my own opinion so take it for what it is worth. I think you can get so hung up on a set philosophy (whether education for academics or education for music) that you lose sight of the child. Sometimes people are very set on Suzuki method that they will not deviate from whatever they perceive it to be (this can be true of teachers and parents) and Suzuki does emphasis repetition to get and learn a beautiful tone on the instruement (and with strings you really do have to eventually get a feel for this or the violin sounds very screeching and annoying). Some Suzuki teachers can take this to unreasonable lengths so that dc never gets beyond Twinkle for years - the tone isn't quite good enough, the bow hold isn't perfect, etc. Other Suzuki teachers expect a certain more reasonable level before moving on - but will continue to go back to those pieces to reinforce the technique learned with it - and may temporarily re-emphasize it again and again. I don't think this is a problem as long as the dc is showing improvement.
So not every Suzuki teacher looks alike - there is great difference based on temperment of the teacher and the degree to which they have a perfectionist nature. I am not saying there shouldn't be a certain emphasis of excellence - if you learn to ignore tone on the violin, you can end up sounding worse and worse the more complicated the piece. So Suzuki really had something in his emphasis on the ear training, the listening to someone playing the piece well, etc. Ideally the dc would be living with someone who was a beautiful person and good musician and they will naturally imitate the good. This is why Suzuki really wants the parent playing as well as the dc - in some areas the parent is required to take lessons for 6 months before the child so that the parent can be the model. Here that doesn't happen and what generally happens is the dc far surpasses the parent and then no longer has the home model. Our Suzuki cello teacher tried to compensate for this by videotaping lessons - then dd could practice with her teacher and still hear the good sound and see her teacher's technique. I will say that it did teach dd to pay attention - and if her teacher ever got sloppy with form, she would have recognized it, it was so engrained. We also listen to professional recordings of a piece. Our dd actually practices all her orchestra pieces along with a tape of a professional orchestra. This aspect of Suzuki is very helpful and I would even say essential. There are certainly traditional teachers who have recognized these elements in Suzuki education and incorporated them.
I think what I'm trying to say is compare learning to play an instruement with learning to read. You expose dc to lots and lots of books. You read to them and may even point out words. The dc eventually tries to imitate the reading or desires it - then you bring out tools to facillitate that process. Now Suzuki really thought you learned to play an instruement the same way you learned to read or talk. What happens with Suzuki is that there is great variety of opinion about when dc is ready to bring out the tools to facillitate the process. You continue to imitate good players, listen to music, etc. but at some point you need to have the tools of reasoning to add to your arsenal.
We get better at reading, by reading, true. However, what if a dc doesn't take off with just being read to. What if they show interest, but are getting frustrated because it just isn't coming together for them. Would it not make sense to give them another tool to facillitate the learning. So with reading you might make up flash cards for recognizing sight words or you might introduce a systematic de-coding techniques. At some point both are going to need a bit of both in order to really read (de-coding will help with pronunciation of unfamiliar words, sight words are essential for really comprehending what you read and a wide exposure to words in general and in their most beautiful use in literature and poetry is essential all your life. Well, wouldn't it be silly if we were so stuck on one technique or the other, that we refused to provide the dc with others simply because it didn't fit our perception of the philosophy. It would be like losing the point while getting caught up in the particulars. Some teachers in either method can do this - I know traditional teachers who think it is harmful for dc to hear the music they are learning before learning it (phooey) and Suzuki teachers who think that until a child sounds like Yo Yo Ma playing twinkle, they cannot move on to any other piece and regardless of their age, they should not ever see written music until they are past book 3 (again, phooey). I know both traditional and suzuki teachers that will work with the child (which is the heart of what both are about anyways) and begin with gentle introduction to notes, or letting them see the notes on a page while they are imitating the teacher and still listen to beautiful music, expect attention to tone and quality of sound and technique on the instruement without coming across as tyrants. These same teachers will know just what to do to help inspire a child to put forth their best effort. IMO the best teachers don't lose sight of the point of the method they are following in the particulars but keep to the heart even while modifying particulars to suit an individual child, culture, family, etc. Wouldn't we be silly if we insisted that phonics was the best and refused to try something else if dc got stymied. Using something else doesn't mean we have abandoned phonics - just that we didn't lose sight of the whole point.
If we were working with a teacher, our child was practicing and yet still not progressing after a year or so, we'd find another way of approaching it. That doesn't mean that we would expect a 2 yo to progress at the same rate as an 11 yo and it doesn't mean that we would abandon a teacher when the progress was slow and steady. But if we ever got to the point of no progress, then it is time for a different way of looking at things (and it doesn't necessarily mean the first teacher was bad - just time to move on). Phonics isn't a bad method just because it didn't help dc #2 get over the hump and begin reading (and it doesn't mean it isn't an important technique or skill to have) but maybe dd#2 needs some quick reading to see the whole and then picks up phonics as they observe words. Why abandon one or the other entirely. Another dc may be just the opposite, you can do all the sight words in the world you want and be so hung up in the fact that that is how a child ultimately reads that you refuse to give them the tools of phonics which might just have spared the child endless frustration and helped them over the hump and allowed them to make those words, sight words. Well, how silly we are when we refuse to do this for the child based on some preconceived idea. Of course to read a word must become a sight word, but if de-coding helps that happen, why would we be opposed.
I guess that is where I am and I think the best teachers in any method do just that - start with what their method emphasizes - and then pull in whatever tools are needed at appropriate times to help dc along without losing sight of the end goal - beautiful music coming from the heart of the child. I think Suzuki made tremendous, unprecedented contributions to music education (and the best teaches have incorporated what he learned). I think the fight between Suzuki and traditional teachers is silly - good teachers use the best of all that is out there and who cares what label is attached to their studio.
I probably should go back and edit, delete the post as I may have gotten too opinionated but I really need to go help ds with something. Please, please ignore anything that is too much.
Janet
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MacBeth
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Most Suzuki teachers I know try to pace lessons to the ability of the child. Some kids will learn quite quickly, while others will take a while. I suppose a traditional teacher will do the same, though I have no real experience with a traditional teacher (esp. for younger kids), except my own...I had two years of traditional method in 5th and 6th grade, and never got past "Mary Had a Little Lamb"  . An 8 year old may be working on Twinkle (consider how many variations there could be--ask Mozart!), but should also be working on other things. Tuning is another matter. A child should be able to tell if his instrument needs tuning well before he can accurately tune it. Accurate tuning is a long lesson .
As for practicing independently, or initiating practice, it depends on the child. I have always left instruments out as much as possible so the kids can just walk by and pick them up. This encourages independence quickly. And a child should be taught how to maintain the instrument (care and cleaning) at a young age so that the instrument becomes "his" as much as possible.
Jenn, it seems to me, without knowing your sister and her kids, that she is active in their practices and tuning by choice, not necessarily by method.
I really don't have much to say against Suzuki, as it is taught here. All of Libby's friends, even the piano kids (she just told me) were Suzuki trained. These kids have all reached an amazing level of performance ability. Even kids in our local program who are at different levels all play well, and are pleasant to hear. Personally, I would rather hear an 8 year old play Twinkle well than hear her play a concerto out of tune, scratchy, and in poor tempo.
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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ALmom
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Yeah,  I was looking for your post to give your experience! I also wanted to ask how Libby's competition went - know she probably sounded wonderful in any case.
One other idea - there is a lot to coordinate on the violin - the ear, the finger hand position, the bowing and it takes longer for some than for others for it all to come together.
One thing you might have fun with is taking Suzuki lessons yourself with dd observing - then you get a chance to meet the teacher with no pressure on the dc - plus if she does end up taking to it, you already have some idea of what you are looking for and get a feel for the teacher and method - especially if it is mostly Suzuki teachers that are being recommended (we find the same 3 or 4 teachers recommended over and over in each instruement which is a clue to the better teachers in an area).. Of course this all depends on time, distance, expense and logistics of other dc. We never could do this ourselves - and I have trouble crossing the midpoint so I just slow all dc down. But it was a thought. Once someone is playing in the household, the other dc take to things more naturally, in general - or that is Suzuki's observation and our general experience as well.
Janet
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MacBeth
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ALmom wrote:
Yeah, I was looking for your post to give your experience! I also wanted to ask how Libby's competition went - know she probably sounded wonderful in any case.
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Oh, thanks for asking! I did mean to follow up. She took 3rd place  , which as a bit disappointing, as, once again, Mr. Perlman's students took 1st and 2nd. This was an "in house" competition, and Libby is still principal second for the concert (the entire sections switch after each concert, so being in the second section is no less than being first).
A few days after the competition, she got judges comments. One judge was very critical, but in a good way, offering constructive advice. At first she was put off by comments like "a bit too 19th century for my taste" , but in the end, the critical judge called her a "very interesting player." All three judges and the principal of the school were impressed with the short cadenza she wrote herself, and the technical difficulty of the main cadenza...she was the only student who attempted it. I reminded her that these were not NY Times reviews, and that the comments go to her teacher only. They are for the benefit of the student, and overall, are very encouraging. In the end, she is very pleased with her performance, and is looking forward to the next competition...recording on Tuesday, and hoping for a callback in March!
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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ALmom
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Sounds like Libby did a great job - 3rd place among those is not a small thing. She may be surprised at what good things come. Jennifer did a competition last year - didn't place, got very helpful comments. Then a few months later got a call from one of the judges to accompany his string students at their recital (the judge with the most helpful comments). She really likes those comments that get specific.
Janet
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4Real Forums : The Arts in the Everyday
Topic: Suzuki Questions
