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amyable
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I *really* need a place to come and say "what would you do if your 4yo did X or your 9yo did Y and Z" without taking up thread after thread here. I've struggled with the more unclear aspects of parenting/discipline for way too long, and it's definitely contributing to my anxiety/depression and my kids unhappiness. I need to make some major changes.
By "tricky" in the subject title I mean the things that are *not* outright in your face disobedience/refusal... but more the constant "almost backtalk", the "I can never be wrong so I'll always get the last word in" child, the constant forgetfulness of another. So I guess by discipline I don't mean punishment necessarily, but ways to work through these annoying and family-disturbing things.
I'd love it if others contributed their own scenarios for advice and also gave advice about "this is what we do here" or "this is what worked for me in that situation last year".
So if this is OK (I'll know it's not when I come back and see the thread gone  ) I'd like to start with two little things:
A. It's lunch and your 4.5yo gets down from the table every day, you ask if they are done/full and they say yes, so you say "OK, go potty for your rest time." and they say "Ooooooh! No! I meant NO I'm not full!" I'm mad because she lied, I'm mad because she's manipulating me to avoid going to bed. I do nothing, because she's 4, I let her eat some more. But inside I'm upset that I feel I have no authority or control.
B. Your 11yo asks to borrow your MP3 player. She has broken 3 sets of her own headphones in the past month or so. You say, "OK, but if you break my headphones you are buying me new ones." And instead of "OK Mom" she comes back with "Those all broke because they are cheap." Implying that NO, I won't pay you, and nothing is ever my fault. This is a constant way of relating for this child. It feels disrespectful to me and I personally want it to stop, but don't know if I'm being unrealistic.
OK, your turn. 
I'll be back with a million others.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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KackyK
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| Posted: Oct 28 2009 at 10:31am | IP Logged
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Okay I'm probably not very helpful because what I do doesn't always work  but I can give you what my first reaction would be.
A. At our house, as soon as you get off your chair (other than to go to the potty or to serve yourself some more) you are done.period. You have to wait till snack time for more. So what you wrote, I'd just deny the extra food and then ignore any tantrum that may follow. Then follow up on the going to the potty.
B. My immediate response would be fine, you are being rude, you aren't using mine, save your money and buy yourself some good ones.
I'm probably not very proactive in "changing" the behavior. I sometimes just think that showing them their poor behavior doesn't "work" for them, takes care of it. It isn't an instant fix! 
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MaryM
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| Posted: Oct 28 2009 at 10:52am | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
| So if this is OK (I'll know it's not when I come back and see the thread gone ) I'd like to start with two little things: |
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Don't worry, Amy, it won't be gone  . It's an EXCELLENT idea for a thread. I think the ongoing idea generating for real everyday scenarios could be very helpful. The only caution that would be suggested from a board point of view is that we are all careful to focus on behavior and not the child - being respectful of our relationship with them by avoiding TMI (especially with an older child) as this is a public forum. The other point to consider is avoidance of engaging in polarized discussion on methods of discipline (i.e. punishment) as that is a prudential decision that will look different in different families. We should not judge another family's methods.
With that being said, I'm very interested in following this. We currently have a big issue of
amyable wrote:
| ...the "I can never be wrong so I'll always get the last word in" |
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between two siblings. When you have two that won't "give it up" until one storms off, it's not pretty. 
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Mary M. in Denver
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: Oct 28 2009 at 11:46am | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
| A. It's lunch and your 4.5yo gets down from the table every day, you ask if they are done/full and they say yes, so you say "OK, go potty for your rest time." and they say "Ooooooh! No! I meant NO I'm not full!" I'm mad because she lied, I'm mad because she's manipulating me to avoid going to bed. I do nothing, because she's 4, I let her eat some more. But inside I'm upset that I feel I have no authority or control. |
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I would ask if she's full/finished. Yes. "OK, go potty." I wouldn't say "for rest time." Just "Please go potty." If she says NO, then I'd physically help her go potty, in a nice way....just helping...holding her hand while walking to the bathroom. Not discussing....if she keeps up the debate, just keep repeating the same phrase...."After lunch, we go potty." If you want to get chatty, you could add: "After lunch, we go potty, that's just what we do!" or whatever. Simple, stick with the facts. Unemotional.
Under no circumstances would I let her go back to the table and eat.
Quote:
Your 11yo asks to borrow your MP3 player. She has broken 3 sets of her own headphones in the past month or so. You say, "OK, but if you break my headphones you are buying me new ones." And instead of "OK Mom" she comes back with "Those all broke because they are cheap." Implying that NO, I won't pay you, and nothing is ever my fault. This is a constant way of relating for this child. It feels disrespectful to me and I personally want it to stop, but don't know if I'm being unrealistic.
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Nope, not being unrealistic. MY response would be "OK, then you can't borrow my headphones, but you're welcome to save your money and buy your own expensive headphones!"
You could also go a bit further later when you're calm, cool, and collected ...."You've broken a lot of your headphones lately, which can be frustrating and awfully expensive for you. Do you need help figuring out how to keep this from happening?"
You haven't PURCHASED THOSE 3 sets of headphones FOR HER, have you, Amy???? Where did she get those? I'd say breaking one set of headphones is understandable...but 2? 3? Where are they coming from? Did she pay for all of them and now she's running out of money? Good, she's learning the value of money and caring for one's things. Or are you buying them for her? I'd say allow one break, but after that....they should pay for their own. Explaining taking care of things, etc.
Don't argue. Set the limits, explain the consequences, help them problem-solve.
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Suzanne in ID
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JSchaaf
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A. Don't get mad. Anticipate the conflict. Don't ask if she's done when she gets down from the table. Just clear her plate and say "In five minutes you will get ready for rest-time." No choices. No more food. Do not respond when she yells and whines. Set the timer for five minutes and when it rings, escort her into the potty and then into bed. Be loving and kind, but FIRM.
PS Can you tell I am going through this right now??
Jennifer
B. "No. You may not borrow my things until you can demonstrate more responsibility with your own things."
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lapazfarm
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KackyK wrote:
Okay I'm probably not very helpful because what I do doesn't always work but I can give you what my first reaction would be.
A. At our house, as soon as you get off your chair (other than to go to the potty or to serve yourself some more) you are done.period. You have to wait till snack time for more. So what you wrote, I'd just deny the extra food and then ignore any tantrum that may follow. Then follow up on the going to the potty.
B. My immediate response would be fine, you are being rude, you aren't using mine, save your money and buy yourself some good ones.
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Exactly what she said.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
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JodieLyn
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Well with the 4.5 yr old.. I think you got lots of good responses. But I would also consider why she might be fighting me on the rest time. Does she not need the sleep time? Is she having to lay down.. is she able to have quiet time toys in bed with her? is she able to look at books maybe? or listend to a story on tape?
The reason I'm asking is that mine have long outgrown naps by 4. Oh sure occationally one might take a nap but less than once a month just isn't a regular need.
Now mine if they take a nap after they've outgrown them you can just subtract that time from what they would sleep at night. And I'd really rather have that longer sleep at night.
But if she's fighting it because it's so unappealing, maybe she's ready for a change. Maybe she's feeling singled out? or like she should be one of the big kids getting to stay up (if they do)?
I don't really know but sometimes we do need to examine if it's the child that needs to change or the situation.
And then, do what the other ladies said. If she gets up, ask if she's done/full. Remove her plate etc. Tell her to use the potty.. no options (her plate is already gone) and then not until after the potty do you tell her that it's quiet time. No reason to drag the battle about quiet time out into both meal time and potty time.
On the older child.. "OK, but if you break my headphones you are buying me new ones." And instead of "OK Mom" she comes back with "Those all broke because they are cheap."
Be that as it may, you either agree to replace it if you want to borrow something or you don't borrow it.
BUT again, does she feel that you're not just looking for agreement to a condition but holding up the past and scolding her more for it? How would you feel if someone did that to you? probably fairly defensive, if you've already appologized or whatever for an accident to have it brought up can feel pretty hurtful.
Maybe if you have a rule about if you borrow anything and it breaks you replace it. Then you can ask.. "what's the rule about borrowing things" to anyone asking to borrow anything.. and it's less personal and less pointed.
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Angel
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Or, with the potty thing, I might split it up, like... "Ok, you're done, take your dishes to the sink," or you clear the dishes off the table, whatever. After the dishes are cleared, then I would say, "Now it's time to go potty and get ready to rest." That way, there isn't anything on the table to argue over, and there is no possibility of using a meal to avoid rest time. She will just have to think up something else.
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Angela
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amyable
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Ugh, I just lost a HUGE response.  Let me try to summarize...
First I want to thank everyone! I love hearing the similar and different viewpoints. It lets me see choices, then I can pick what can work best for us.
I think I'm realizing I'm a pushover compared to most of you! No wonder I'm "simmering" all the time, wondering how my household and family got away from me.
I'm going to quote from a few posts, but I'm really replying to everyone:
SuzanneG wrote:
| I would ask if she's full/finished. Yes. "OK, go potty." I wouldn't say "for rest time." Just "Please go potty." If she says NO, then I'd physically help her go potty, in a nice way....just helping...holding her hand while walking to the bathroom. Not discussing.... |
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Suzanne dear, this child sees right through that! Any *hint* at her lunch-free-for-all being over would bring the same result of begging to NOT be done, I don't have to mention lying down.  I guess I give in because she probably IS hungry, seeing that she spent most of lunch fooling around, and only got down because the baby did or an older sister. Clearing off the table doesn't make a difference, she would just ask for something hand held like a piece of cheese.
But I'm not arguing with YOU Suzanne, I really do now see I need to just call her on her behavior and Be The Boss. She does need the rest/sleep still every day, because she is up at O'DarkThirty on a regular basis, and is crabby all day.
SuzanneG wrote:
| You haven't PURCHASED THOSE 3 sets of headphones FOR HER, have you, Amy???? Where did she get those? I'd say breaking one set of headphones is understandable...but 2? 3? |
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Well, to be honest, I think 2 of the 3 really WERE cheap - probably dollar store things. It wasn't so much the truth/untruth of the statement she made, so much as the attitude that came across with it. If she had said, "OK Mom, I'll try, but those others WERE cheap" I would have been fine. But my kids can be so blunt all the time it feels disrespectful. There's no spirit of *wanting* to do what we say.
And Jodie, your entire post reminds me of what goes through my head with every little issue here. It's great and necessary to analyze the situations like that, but half way into every discourse with a child I felt like they walked all over me or each other, because I was busy "analyzing" what was going on and trying to think the best of that child, while they were truly in need of a firm hand, I think!
Hope this made some sense...
...and I hope someone else will post THEIR problems so I don't feel like the biggest parenting loser.
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amyable
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Ooo, and can I inject a little question in here for everyone? Do you all have a ton of house rules, either written somewhere or unwritten? Jodie's thought of "maybe you could make a rule about borrowing things" made me think of that. We don't (obvious, no? ) but sometimes I think we should - except we would have SO MANY it would be, to me, ridiculous. My kids want to argue every little point, that if we didn't have a *specific rule* about everything, there would be no point.
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Amy
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: Oct 28 2009 at 2:23pm | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
| Suzanne dear, this child sees right through that! |
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Of course she does! But, that's not the point. Obedience in the little things when you're 4!!!
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| I guess I give in because she probably IS hungry, seeing that she spent most of lunch fooling around, |
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So, that's another issue. Remember "no-eaty, no-treaty" from that other thread?
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Suzanne in ID
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amyable
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SuzanneG wrote:
| Remember "no-eaty, no-treaty" from that other thread? |
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And yes, we have many multiple layers of issues here, in one big soupy mess.
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Amy
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JodieLyn
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I certainly didn't mean to say you need to think through every single argument.. only after you see a pattern over time should you go into it.
And it's something that you consider seperate from the interaction with the kids. Just like a preschool teacher or day care wouldn't consider how to rearrange the classroom or schedule while the kids were there.. it would be something they'd work out seperate and then implement.
And it's much better to be positively wrong when dealing with your kids than it is to be wishy washy. You can always appologize later if necessary.
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She does need the rest/sleep still every day, because she is up at O'DarkThirty on a regular basis, and is crabby all day.
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See, that's sorta what mine were doing.. they'd either resist going to sleep at night until really late or they'd be up way way too early.. when they didn't have a nap they'd get all their sleep at night and sleep from a reasonable hour, until a reasonable hour.
Now I know not all kids are like that and I know some do need a nap until they're much older. Mine give up naps way to early but life just works so much better when they do.. and that's what I go with.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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jenk
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amyable wrote:
| Do you all have a ton of house rules, either written somewhere or unwritten? Jodie's thought of "maybe you could make a rule about borrowing things" made me think of that. We don't (obvious, no? ) but sometimes I think we should - except we would have SO MANY it would be, to me, ridiculous. |
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This question makes me think of a blog post I just read... I'm going to try to dig it up and link here but the idea of it was house rules were few, general and simple
We don't hurt each other
We don't hurt other's things
We obey Mom and Dad...
There were only a handful of rules and most situations would fall under these. For example- 4yo... Obey Mom
11yo- we don't hurt things that don't belong to us.
LOL! I still have that window open- from a week ago... was planning on printing the "rules" to use for our family. I need a personal rule about procrastination
http://www.yarnsoftheheart.com/2008/05/setting-boundaries-fo r-kids.html
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Willa
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JodieLyn wrote:
On the older child.. "OK, but if you break my headphones you are buying me new ones." And instead of "OK Mom" she comes back with "Those all broke because they are cheap."
Be that as it may, you either agree to replace it if you want to borrow something or you don't borrow it.
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Yes, in response to that my answer would be, "So do you still want to borrow my headphones under those conditions, or not?" After all, that is the standard condition for borrowers -- it's not something you just made up on the spot.
11 year olds are great at clouding the issue and it's a developmental skill, which is related to increasing cognitive maturity. But parents of 11 year olds need to develop the ability to keep discussions defused and on the issue. It is very helpful to have a chance to build that skill when they are 11 because at ages 15 or 16, they are usually better at it : -).
The issue of cheap headphones or possible poor treatment of them would be a separate one, to be handled in a separate discussion, AFTER the agreement.
It's true that my poor kids usually have taped-together, tissue-paper stuffed headphones because we buy the cheapie dollar store ones, so they could probably sympathize with your dd, and I do too ... however, if my kids want to get the good ones it's up to them to figure out how to get the $$$ and decide if that is really their top priority. Knowing that, they haven't complained  .
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Willa
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doris
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Great thread. I'll try to chime in with one of my many discipline issues as it occurs...
We do have rules... We try to frame them positively ie 'Kind hands', 'kind words' but that doesn't always work (eg 'No singing at the table'). I find it really helps, especially when there is conflict between the children. (The key one there is 'We take it in turns, youngest first.)
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anitamarie
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As far as a list of rules, we try to stick to these 3:
1) Respect for God
2) Respect for Others
3) Respect for Self
Pretty much everything falls under 1,2 or all of the above. They have gotten quite good at pointing out which of the 3 a sibling has broken .
Anita
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Mackfam
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Amy,
I've wanted to chime in on your thread all day, but I'm just getting a chance to drop by.
For what it's worth, my response to situations A and B would be identical to Suzanne's. A situation presents itself, stick to the issue, subtract the emotion, state the options/boundaries clearly, follow through. Period.
Now...getting to that point and being comfortable in that situation is sort of what I'm hearing you feel a lack of confidence with. Am I right? I get there too. I imagine we all do. Kids change, grow, mature, develop and articulate better or more clearly, learn to manipulate. As soon as we *think* we've figured out one challenge, another child steps up to the plate and challenges us again. Multiply this times the number of children and I do understand the angst!!! Been there!!! or...I am there!!! It never really goes away - we're always being challenged.
My husband and I are constantly brainstorming. We discuss the challenges - all of them. Work on the big picture and from there identify what small areas can be tackled first. The key to any habit training is gentle, but firm consistency.
So, I know you were looking for specific examples, but I thought I'd start this by suggesting a serious brainstorm with your husband.
** List all of the areas that seem to be unraveling
** List the challenges that each child is facing in terms of obedience/habit training (it's totally ok if this list is long!! You're just making a list and sometimes it's freeing just to get it all out somewhere!)
** List the environmental challenges that you perceive to be factors. (is lunch so distracting and full of activity that the little one is not eating and thus actually IS hungry AND also trying to manipulate? Can you do anything to assist with that?)
** In what ways do YOU feel challenged particularly? Follow through? Calm, gentle disciplining? Confidence in administering discipline? Discuss these and brainstorm the why of why you feel that way and how to overcome it.
** What kind of tools can you offer your children that help them solve problems so that you are going beyond disciplining and assisting them in building positive habits and skills?
This process could take a week or more. I remember one time a few years ago when I felt so dreadfully challenged by a then 4th grader. I was totally without a clue. I just couldn't see what to do. So, I found an old steno notebook and just journaled through the challenging behavior issues - I made notes, observations, guessed at motivations, tried to make connections, etc. I just wrote it all down on paper and I'd go over it in private with my husband and we'd brainstorm more. We did eventually figure out what was going on. I just didn't want you to think that the way I wrote this neat and tidy process out it might take an evening...it could take lots of brainstorming. Paper helps me because when I review my notes I begin to see connections.
So, after brainstorming, Rob and I kind of give each other a pep talk. He gently points out my weak areas and gives me pointers on how to stay focused...like a coach before a game. He's great about how he does this with me and we work hard each evening to keep building each other up and backing each other up. We talk specifics...if this happens...do this. Concrete tools. That's the discipline part of the equation. The brainstorming and note-taking/observation part is the solution/skill building focused part of the equation. This is important for my older children especially, but it's really important for all of them - even the littles. I try hard to brainstorm so that I'm setting them up for success. Does that make sense?
I'll give you an example of a recent issue we dealt with.
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| A child began to dispute and contradict everything we said. This child had to have the last word. While the points made were sometimes valid, the tone was argumentative and generally disrespectful. |
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I was flummoxed! This was going on in the middle of the school day, and it was really sucking a lot of my energy. I didn't want this child to feel they didn't have a voice, but I couldn't let the constant contradicting and disputing continue.
We brainstormed and came up with our solution:
1. First, we spoke with the child and clearly identified the problem. We pointed out the disrespect and we also pointed out that we did appreciate and want to hear this child's input, but in a healthy, respectful way. We let the child know clearly ahead of time what our plan was....
2. The discipline part -- When a request was met with a dispute, we would gently point out with the first dispute that we were not entertaining input at this time, obedience was expected or privilege X would be lost. Follow through. In our case it was helpful to have the consequence be a series of small things so that we could remove several small privileges at once...loss of x amount of time spent with a favorite thing because this child would press on with but...but...but...(remember the aforementioned desire to constantly have the last word?) to which we responded...consequence...consequence...consequence. No restating. No discussion. Just consequence.
3. The skill building part -- We wanted this child to feel they had a voice so we would invite input at a time separate from the request. We paid attention to objections, and tried to incorporate reasonable requests.
This child got the picture fairly quickly and within a week began responding with obedience and would politely let us know that there was a desire to talk about the options at some time.
So...that's my meager contribution...and I don't know if I'm anywhere near offering some ideas that you can take and bend to twist in your family. But, I do empathize!! 
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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I'll throw one out here...a child that is rude. I'm struggling with what seems to me rudeness all.the.time in the tone and words spoken and the general hands on the hip, eyes rolling, making faces etc. My personal struggle is differentiating betw. plain rudeness, the child's frustration and/or the child's lack of sleep and what/when do I allow things to slide. Lately, I've been enforcing a proper way to stand and requiring the words to be restated in a more polite tone and in a lower voice. Sometimes tho this could literally happen allllllllll daaaaaaay looooooong!!! I'm talking 4, 5, 6x per HOUR. This leaves me very little time and energy to care for a busy toddler and another schooling child. The constant "discliplining" of this child has truly taken a toll on me and I'm feeling at my wit's end physically, emotionally and even spiritually when it comes to this child. Anyone have anything to offer for that?
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Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
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monique
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Joined: Sept 11 2007
Location: Wyoming
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Posts: 345
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| Posted: Oct 29 2009 at 9:28am | IP Logged
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What a great thread. I'm going to come back and re-read this again and again.
I'm sick of homeschooling and I think the reason is because we have a general discipline problem in our home. I read the book "Homeschooling with a Meek and Quiet Spirit". In it she talks about having already set consequences for certain issues. This helps get rid of the emotion for the parent and the uncertainty for the child. I really like this idea but can't seem to come up with the consequences. What would seem right for the 12 yo wouldn't necessarily be right for the 2 yo.
I can see I get easily frustrated and overwhelmed with so many different needs. Many days, I just want to throw in the towel. How do you deal with this?
Also, I know I get too emotional. How do you keep from getting so emotional?
Thanks!
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Monique
mom to 5
Raising Saints
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Can we have a "tricky" discipline thread?
