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kingvozzo
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| Posted: Jan 22 2006 at 8:06pm | IP Logged
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I'm hoping that some of the more 'veteran' moms can help me ou t with this problem. My ds2 started climbing out of his crib over the summer (while we were in the middle of a move), when he was about 20m. After we settled into the new house, we got the toddler bed all set up for him. My normally amiable 2 year old is awful at bedtime. 
He's the first of my kids to climb out of a crib, and the first to not really cooperate with bedtime. We have tried numerous methods to get him to stay in bed. In no particular order, we've tried:
1-Gently and consistently putting him back to bed (literally dozens of times per night). When he sees us coming, he just starts walking back to his bed.
2-Dh sitting on the edge of son's bed till he settles down (or goes to sleep). This is increasingly time consuming, and frustrating for dh, who's tired after a long day at work.
3-shutting the door and just letting him cry (which he's doing as I type this 
4-Nursing him to sleep. This is a very long process. A lot of the time, he will just start playing while he's nursing, which I take as a cue that he's all done. Even when he does get to nurse to sleep, he often wakes up when I put him to bed.
None of these has worked for more than a day or two. I"m really stumped. My other 2 children went through a "training" phase (for lack of a better term) for bedtime when they were infants, and they were NOT climbing out of bed.
I hope all this makes sense. I'm a bit distracted by his crying right now---although I'm sure that sounds truly terrible. I would really appreciate any suggestions, or even some encouragement that he's going to figure out that bedtime is for sleeping--in bed!
Thanks so much.
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Noreen
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JennGM
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Noreen,
I'm sorry to hear your troubles! I've just gone through this with my son. He was already weaned, so that wasn't part of the pictures. Does your son have his own room?
Our ds crawled out of the crib around age 2 (he's now 28 mos). We had to take most everything out of the room that he could climb on. I set up the bed to be "cozy" like his crib. I have the same blankets, draped them around the bars, and we started a routine that he rolls over and put his big blanket over him and rub his back. He also has a blankie he's very attached to which signals bedtime. We kept his little Fisher Price Aquarium so he can play his music in his bed.
At first, it was a big game. He wanted to run around and try his newfound freedom. He got into everything! Taking the vent cover out, playing with the open cavity (dangerous), playing with the night lights and sockets (he slept in the dark for a while after that), ripping up books, taking out drawers, climbing onto the diaper table, climbing on the ottoman. Like I said, we had to remove a few things!
After going in a few times, we decided to give him a few books (he loves his books) and let him wear himself out. We went in periodically to settle him down, straighten the room up and put him in bed. But he was also a little intimidated by the opened up space and freedom, but he didn't know how to handle it. He was proud of his "big boy bed," but not so sure if he wanted to be so grown up!
For a few weeks it was a battle to see how long it would take him to go to sleep, sometimes finding him on the floor. It took us longer because we were travelling to my MIL's frequently on weekends, which disrupted the whole rhythm. I'd say it took 2-3 hours each night for him to finally crash.
I did more singing and rocking to calm him down, make him feel secure before his bedtime, and coming in and checking on him, rubbing his back. Now he feels comfortable and hardly roams around in his room, but stays in his bed. He loves his bed and nightime routine.
Oh, as a side note, I had to find nightlights that plugged behind the bookcase with cords, instead of directly into the outlet.
So, maybe this is no help, except to say "this, too, shall pass."
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Jennifer G. Miller
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JennGM
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| Posted: Jan 22 2006 at 8:57pm | IP Logged
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One more thing, we put a "kid-proof" knob cover on the inside of his room. At the time he hadn't learned how to open doors, so we were preventing it before it happened. As he does get into things, I don't like him running around without supervision.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Victoria in AZ
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Noreen, I'm quite a few years removed from such a little one and may not be the best to answer. What I will offer is a perspective from 13 years past.
My then 2yo ds was also awful at bedtime. I ended up speaking with our pediatrician about it because it was such a struggle. I thought the doctor was a monster when he suggested installing a screen door on ds's room and keeping him locked in his room once put to bed. We never did it.
In hindsight, I can see now that this nightly struggle was a battle of wills and an issue of obedience. I was too soft-hearted and believed ds would have terrible nightmares, etc. if his bedtime was not pleasant. He stayed in our bed until age 6 or so.
Honestly, to this day, this kid does not like to go to bed. He is extremely strong-willed. I believe we are both now paying that my dh and I were not strong enough with him. Sometimes I now respond to him like a 3 yo and know I'm paying for losing that battle at bedtime (and other times) a long while ago.
You do seem to be trying all the right things. Keep them up and be the strong one.
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amyable
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Is he still napping? When each of my two year olds became obstinate for hours at bed time, taking hours to fall asleep, we took it as a cue that they were getting too much sleep during the day and cut out naps on most days. Each of my kids has gone through this phase at around 24-28 months - needing a nap only every few days. On non-nap days we put them to bed pretty early, like 7PM instead of 8-8:30. This hasn't solved all problems but it has always lessened them tremendously.
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Erin
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Noreen,
I am currently going through a battle at present with my 19 mth old. She has been weaned and is painful at night! No problem for her day sleep I just pop her in the cot and off she goes. I can also hear her crying through the monitor as I type. I make it worse as I generally give in in the end after lots of heart-breaking crying and lie with her on my bed, which is time consuming and often she then decides its play time.
I watched an episode on Super Nanny a few weeks back, (yeah, a surprise as she really irritates me, however some of her methods are effective) Anyhow this child had his mother demented, he was still roaming at 11pm (well its 10pm here  ) his poor mother would put him in his cot and he would just get back out until in the end every night he fell asleep exhausted on the lounge, I just wanted to hug the poor mother. She was at the end of her tether.
What they worked out was the mother was to sit in the room on the floor on level with the cot. She wasn't to look at the child, no eye contact, but he could see her and be reassured. The plan was every night to move a little further out the room until in the end she was sitting in the hall. The first night he screamed terribly (but he had been doing that every night anyway) after 25 minutes of horrendous crying he fell asleep!!  Oh whenever he climbed out she just put him back in without making eye contact. It was terrible but it did the trick.
So I've tried it, but I couldn't manage to do it strictly. I ended up patting her and talking to her, so she was still awake after half an hour. Well. dh has gone up to her and is walking the floor with her on his shoulder she will soon fall aleep that way.
I don't know if I've helped Noreen, I'm sure I went through this with my others and I dare say I wasn't strict enough with them also. Maybe I need to do the Super Nanny thing, I guess I will when I'm desperate enough. Which is now.!
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Rachel May
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We were fairly fortunate about moving the kids to big beds. One thing that may have helped is that the kids weren't alone in the new bed, a benefit of having twins first!
Each 21 mo who is pushed out of the crib by a younger sibling is welcomed into the next older sibling's bed. They share until they get too big to be comfortable which is based on their preference. The twins still share, but the other 2 sleep alone. Those 4 are all in one room which, contrary to our fears, has cut down on bedtime playing and people getting up.
We have never been co-sleepers, and all the kids were already trained to go to sleep on their own in the crib (I didn't nurse them to sleep as a general rule.)so I'm sure that also affected their transition.
For all of us, our self control as parents is truly called into play when we have to allow our children to cry and not respond or not respond as the child wants. I think the best responses of those you've mentioned are those that do not increase the attention your son is getting. That is counter productive, in my opinion.
I think Victoria has a great point about obedience. If this child is old enough to be trained to obey, then bedtime is another training. I personally have no issue with a solution that involves the child crying. When my children cry about something they are unhappy about (as opposed to being hurt or scared), I say to myself, "This is a temper tantrum." It may seem silly, but that helps me as a parent choose how to train the child. A temper tantrum in our house needs a firm hand, isolation, and lack of response to the child's demands.
Lately, if there are bedtime tantrums, we walk up and say, "I'm going to have to close the door because you can not behave and I do not have to listen to you being disobedient." This shuts them off a bit more, but they still have a closet light in their room and plenty of company to encourage them to be good and feel secure. 
For your son, putting a child lock on the inside of the doorknob like Jenn mentioned might be a good choice. You could give him 1 (or how ever many you decide, just a consistent number) chance to lay down in bed and stay there. When he has used his chance(s), tell him you will now close the door and why. Be gentle. Be firm. Be consistent. We don't want to break their little wills, just train them to be supple in the hands of authority. 
Also, don't give up too quickly. Night training a 9 month old takes from 3 days to a week usually. At 20 months, you might need to try any new system for a longer time before giving up.
I hope you find something that works soon. I know that interruptions with my sleep or quiet time are the hardest for me to take which is why I could never co-sleep or even keep a baby in a room with me.
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Rachel
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Elizabeth
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We never use a crib, don't even own one. We use a co-sleeper in our room for the first year. I nurse my babies to sleep. After the first year, they move to a bed with a sibling. I read to them and then I nurse them to sleep.I slip out of the room. When they wean (around three), I still hold them or lay right next to them when they go sleep. I absolutely cherish the time and have never regretted a single minute of this very drawn-out evening routine. Eventually, they outgrow it and go off to their own beds to read while I'm putting a younger sibling to sleep.
I have memories of being locked out of my parents' room at night and they aren't pleasant memories. I'm sure that plays into my reluctance to leave them alone when they want me.The only time I've let a child cry was when I was forced to wean Michael at 21 months to start chemo. I was alone upstairs in my bed while my dh held my sobbing toddler downstairs on a sofa bed. We all cried ourselves to sleep. It was a horrible time, full of all kinds of fears for all of us. For me, it's out of the question to revisit nighttime crying voluntarily.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Cay Gibson
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My first two were those textbook babies that were sleeping all night by 3 months of age and have never had a nightmare or an unpleasant night...except for flu bugs.
Of course, I worked part-time 8 AM-12 N and we played and really lived in the afternoon and at night. I'm a night owl so I never pushed the dc to go to bed at X-time. They generally fell asleep on the sofa while we all watched a show or in the rocker with me reading a story.
I didn't know what people were talking about when they talked about children who wouldn't stay in the beds and sleep.
Then along came #3---my high-need baby. There was crying and temper tantrums. I tried it by the book, I tried it by the old wives tales, I tried it every which way but the way that worked for us.
By the age of 2, Garrett was sleeping in our bed. We moved him into a trundle bed with his older brother but he always inevitably ended up in our bed.
With his two younger sister, dh and I never read another book on the subject, never asked anyone else's advice, never sweated the issue. The girls were nursed in our bed then laid in their cradle. If they awoke, they were put in our bed and nursed again. I usually didn't wake up the second go round so the baby stayed put.
When they were about 2, they went into the room with their older sister. Kayleigh had a double bed so they all slept together. Now the three older ones have their own room and the younger two share a room. They both still wander into our room during the night and it just doesn't bother us.
In my 30's I realized I wanted my sleep more than anything else. Simply lifting the comforter and welcoming them into a warm spot in the bed was easier than worrying about tears and frustrations and sleepless nights.
Life is too short. Share it.
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Cay Gibson
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: Jan 23 2006 at 1:31pm | IP Logged
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kingvozzo wrote:
3-shutting the door and just letting him cry (which he's doing as I type this
I'm a bit distracted by his crying right now---although I'm sure that sounds truly terrible. |
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I wanted to add, for the sake of your sanity , don't for a minute hammer yourself with guilt and regrets about letting him "cry it out."
We all have those guilts. Once I mentioned to our deacon that I was filled with regret when watching a home movie my dh had taken. I could hear my baby crying in his room. I remember that video taping. I was hoping against hope that he would "cry himself to sleep." We were both stressing. I was filled with remorse for something that was past and could not be changed.
This deacon (having raised 6 kids himself) gave me some valuable advice. He told me that we learn from our past mistakes and have to move forward. He told me that if I had guilt and remorse over letting my baby cry himself to sleep that my life would be filled with guilt and remorse for every step that child took.That is not a good way to live.
He was basically telling me to acknowledge my human-ness, commit myself to doing better, and move on in joy.
I think he was gently telling me to "get over it!"
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Cay Gibson
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Meredith
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Elizabeth wrote:
| We never use a crib, don't even own one. We use a co-sleeper in our room for the first year. I nurse my babies to sleep. After the first year, they move to a bed with a sibling. I read to them and then I nurse them to sleep.I slip out of the room. When they wean (around three), I still hold them or lay right next to them when they go sleep... |
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Elizabeth, I'm real interested in the co-sleeper, isit much different than a crib with one side rail removed and pushed next to the bed?? And what if you have a high bed?? Also, what about naptimes, do you have them nap in the co-sleeper alone? What about rolling, sitting up etc?? Thanks.
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Elizabeth
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Okay, all the secrets out of the closet . The Fosses are odd ducks when it comes to co-sleeping. We built a platform for the co-sleeper and put extra bassinet mattresses under the one provided to make it flush with the bed. And...we didn't leave the baby alone. At naptime, I nursed the baby to sleep and then assigned a sibling to be there, reading silently, to make sure they didn't roll out or sit up and fall out. A bit neurotic perhaps, but it worked for us. When I had only kids who were too young to be "naptime watchers," we all napped together! . I remember fondly days of shutting the house down completely between 1 and 3 every afternoon, reading stories and sleeping in my big bed with a baby and a preschooler.  .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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kingvozzo
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I absolutely cherish the time and have never regretted a single minute of this very drawn-out evening routine. Eventually, they outgrow it and go off to their own beds to read while I'm putting a younger sibling to sleep. |
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I wish that I could be more patient with ds at bedtime. But, I'm just not "cherishing" this time with him right now.
Elizabeth wrote:
| I have memories of being locked out of my parents' room at night and they aren't pleasant memories. I'm sure that plays into my reluctance to leave them alone when they want me. |
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I definitely don't mind having my son come into my room when he wakes up in the night. I'm actually wondering if that confuses him. Being "forced" to go to bed by himself (well, really with his 7yo brother), but then allowed to come into my bed and nurse in the middle of the night.
Elizabeth wrote:
| The only time I've let a child cry was when I was forced to wean Michael at 21 months to start chemo. I was alone upstairs in my bed while my dh held my sobbing toddler downstairs on a sofa bed. We all cried ourselves to sleep. It was a horrible time, full of all kinds of fears for all of us. For me, it's out of the question to revisit nighttime crying voluntarily. |
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I can see why you wouldn't want to relive any of those associations from weaning Michael and his bedtime.
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Noreen
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kingvozzo
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Cay Gibson wrote:
I didn't know what people were talking about when they talked about children who wouldn't stay in the beds and sleep. |
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I remember thinking this same thing with #1 and #2
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Noreen
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kingvozzo
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jenngm67 wrote:
| One more thing, we put a "kid-proof" knob cover on the inside of his room. At the time he hadn't learned how to open doors, so we were preventing it before it happened. As he does get into things, I don't like him running around without supervision. |
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I think I like this idea---it would allow ds7 to get out when he needs to, and allow us to get in the room when needed.
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Noreen
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SaraP
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Quote:
| When each of my two year olds became obstinate for hours at bed time, taking hours to fall asleep, we took it as a cue that they were getting too much sleep during the day and cut out naps on most days. |
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We've never used a crib either - our babies spend the whole night in bed with us until they are 6 or 8 months old and then I nurse/snuggle them to sleep on a mattress on the floor in another room and then bring them to my bed when they wake - but the taking hours to fall asleep/resisting bedtime thing has been a sign that it's time to cut out naps for us too. I also move bedtime an hour earlier when we eliminate naps.
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Erin
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kingvozzo wrote:
| I wish that I could be more patient with ds at bedtime. But, I'm just not "cherishing" this time with him right now. |
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Noreen,
I've decided that all the books can tell us when or how. Friends we can watch and ask advice off but in the end it is all individual. Trying to force ourselves into someone else's box doesn't work. We all have our OWN areas that we tolerate or ouwn time frames that are unique.
When I experience what you've shared above I know that for me that is when I've had enough. Its time for something to change. As I'm fairly tolerant my snapping point is perhaps months later than say my friends but it is my point.
After last night I had enough. School starts back next week and I want the children to be in better routines by then. Tonight I tried the ' super Nanny' thing to a tee. It worked Genevieve was asleep in 17 minutes Now I just have to whip the other children into shape. Truly it is 10pm and I can still hear the 4 and 6 yr olds partying up there. I have reached my point.!! We have really slid in the last 5 weeks of holidays. Actually it really was before then.
How are you going with your ds? Any progress?
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Angie Mc
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This is such a sensitive topic. Our family has chosen to share sleep and this has looked different depending on our circumstances and the needs of each child. Some of our children have needed it for a longer time than others. Once our children have left our bed, on their own volition or with gentle prodding, they have all slept well which I believe has to do with having their night-time needs met when young AND because, genetically speaking, God has blessed our family with good sleepers going way back.
When a mom gets to her breaking point, it is time to look for a change. There are so many options for finding necessary family rest. I feel that it is important to choose the most gentle and gradual options from the child's perspective, first. This is why. Adults can delay gratification and understand that just the right option may be around the corner and/or that this time is fleeting. Considering brain development, issues of temperament, and an infinite number of known and unknown variables, there are valid reasons for a child to need parenting at night.
If I had to guess why sharing sleep has worked for this family, it is because my husband and I both are able and willing to share our sleep. I cherish my night alone time with my littlest and it so facilitates breastfeeding. Dh loves snuggling next our littles since he is away from them all day. As a care-provider who is on call 24/7, he sees that even adults need his care at night!
I just asked my older children what they think about sharing sleep with parents and siblings. They unanimously agreed that they have fond memories and warm feelings about it and plan to do the same with their children. They still enjoy times when we share sleep, while camping or on Christmas Eve or in the living room dozing off during a movie...
Keep up the great mothering and care, Noreen. I'm praying that you will find just the right fit for you and your family. Thanks to all for sharing their experiences.
Love,
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Maureen
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When my now 3.5 yo was 2 he had a hard time staying in his "big" bed. Our solution was to put up a baby gate at the door of his room. This kept him from feeling totally shut off, but was a reminder that he had to stay in his room.
I would remove the baby gate when my dh and I went to bed, so that the children would have access to us during the night if they had a need.
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Sarah
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We have a full bed next to ours that our 2's sleep in and we lie with them to go to sleep, then either go back to my bed or just sleep there--depending on whether I have energy to go back. Dh does a shift here and there--but he's super tired, usually. . .(well, so am I, but I like to read in bed)
I "weaned" each of my last two to "tickling" as a way to get them to sleep. Tickling simply means stroking their legs, arms or back. Although some kids may not be able to tolerate it, tickling works to settle a child down. I also keep a flashlight and book in the bed and read while they are going to sleep--so I don't get as impatient if it lasts 30-45 minutes.
Also, she goes to bed when we do and that relieves a lot of the nighttime stress. Older kids go to bed earlier. When I turn my light off between 9-10, she is in with us. Baby is too, and he nurses to sleep in dd2's bed while I "tickle."
Sometimes she wakes at night and says "tickle" I tickle for a few seconds, cover her, and she's back to sleep.
I've never used a crib. If I had someone napping that could roll off, they napped on the floor on comforters. A baby as young as 10 mo. can be taught to scoot backwards off a bed/stairs, and because we live in a dumb multi-level, there are tons of staircases to learn to go down.
You think they'll be in your room forever, but by 3-ish, they're good for a twin bed in a sibling's room.
All my kids are good sleepers with no sleep issues. (so far )
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Help with bedtime, please!
