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JennGM
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I'm just curious to hear from those that have "been there, done that".
I consider handwriting important. I know with boys it's harder to make them write, but I do want to emphasize and practice the writing. "Sound Beginnings" has lovely instructions on how to make letters, and reinforces the phonics. We loved it. Would you say this is traditional Ball and stick approach to printing? Not sure what to call it, but it's mainly the way I learned. Good printing is a lifetime skill.
However, I am attracted to the Italic approach of Getty and Dubay, and am wondering if that would be easier for my son to do with the letters. Some of the style seems similar to the Handwriting Without Tears. Montessori likes to do the Italic approach, too.
So, what approach do you take? If you didn't learn the Italic approach, was it harder for you to teach?
How was the transition into cursive?
And after many years how is the printing?
A little general questions. I learned italic later with cursive, and to me, all three ways of writing are good to use.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Betsy
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My first two boys (9 and 7 currently) are using Getty Dubay Italic. I really love it and couldn't be more pleased.
I found this explanation of what distinguishes GD Italic's to be very beneficial to my decision making, epically the part where they compare other styles.
Some of my reasons for picking this program were:
1. I assumed that my son's would never used cursive, so I wanted a very efficient yet beautiful handwriting for them to learn.
2. When I was researching programs GD Italic seemed to have had a lot of thought put into it. The least amount of stroke thing appealed to me for my boys who didn't love to write. Just seemed less complicated.
3. And, after using the program for four years I have found the books to be laid out well. One page takes about 5-10mins. (occasionally longer if they really think they can't do it! ;)), which is about the amount of time that I want to spend on it.
4. The price is reasonable and available.
My 9yo started when he was 6 with this program. We have done a very relaxed approach, but always expecting his very best when he works on it. He has very, very nice handwriting and gets many compliments...yet he doesn't enjoy writing and often balks at copy work. Also, he is asking/begging to do the GD Italic Cursive, so towards the end of this year I will probably start that with him. So, even though I assumed they wouldn't use cursive it looks like we will be doing it!!!
Betsy
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Maryan
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I don't have any answers, Jenn, but I'm currently researching handwriting. I learned cursive in 3rd grade -- and JP has hit that. I just don't know which one I like!
I think I like Getty-Dubay better than HWOT... but still not as much as I like the curly cursive that I learned.  But... not sure how well that will go over. Beautiful writing down quickly is my goal. So... still studying.
Will be watching this thread. 
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Maryan
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JennGM
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Maryan, I am thinking similarily. Betsy, those links were helpful. When I look at the comparison I do like the curly traditional cursive.
I keep wondering what's the right approach? Do homeschoolers do less to make it easy for them to teach and easy for the child? Are we lowering our standards?
Was there a reason for the contrast in Zaner-Bloser or Palmer methods? And how about the even older script/pointed pen methods (Copperplate, Ziller, Spencerian)?
Have we changed because our approach to writing is different in general? Rarely do people hand-write notes...
I guess I'm looking for the philosophy of the past, and what aspects of our society and teaching that would make us try a different way. New isn't always the way I like to take.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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ekbell
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As far as I can tell there are three goals for penmanship.
The first and most important is that people need to be able to read it. My husband was a teacher's assistant in University and he still remembers the paper which had lovely but unreadable handwriting.
The second is to be able to write with ease at a appropriate speed. The major uses of handwriting in an academic setting are note-taking and test writing, which requires a certain speed and endurance.
The third is having a hand which is a pleasure to look upon.
It may well be ideal to have an everyday hand with which the person writing can produce a legible work reasonably quickly and an finer hand for works which deserve more care.
BTW I found this page with five samples of 18th century handwriting a good reminder that handwriting was not more uniform in the past. http://dohistory.org/on_your_own/toolkit/writing.html. The site as a whole looks very interesting as well.
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Betsy
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Jenn,
What about teaching your ds Italics or some other form of beautiful printing for all the reasons ekbell listed. Then, when your ds is ready, teach him Calligraphy?
Betsy
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MarilynW
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My twins started off with HWOT (which I find ugly) In 4th Grade they transitioned from HWOT cursive to regular curly cursive and have done fine.
My 5 year old had always had great fine motor skills - I started him on regular manuscript and he is doing fine.
Just to mention that with you little ones now I use the giant triangular pencils - Faber Castell textured jumbo grip - and I think that this has made a big difference to them writing well and being more comfortable writing. We also use the giant Lyra crayons and colored pencils so they are happy with art. My two year old has taken to these too.
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JennGM
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Betsy wrote:
Jenn,
What about teaching your ds Italics or some other form of beautiful printing for all the reasons ekbell listed. Then, when your ds is ready, teach him Calligraphy?
Betsy |
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That makes sense, Betsy. I'm realizing that when I read "Italic" I'm thinking calligraphy already. That was what I did -- print, cursive, learn calligraphy, starting with Italic.
So I'm having a hard time thinking "print" with Italic when I see Italic as part of calligraphy. Does that make any sense?
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Betsy
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JennGM wrote:
That makes sense, Betsy. I'm realizing that when I read "Italic" I'm thinking calligraphy already. That was what I did -- print, cursive, learn calligraphy, starting with Italic.
So I'm having a hard time thinking "print" with Italic when I see Italic as part of calligraphy. Does that make any sense? |
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Clear as mud...as a favorite teacher use to say!
I often get stuck in this kind of thinking. I do feel like Italics is truly somewhere in between the ball and stick printing and the cursive that we learned. And, that is exactly why (epically for boys, IMO) it makes a tremendous amount of sense to use. It's kind of a one stop shop font..with the potential to learn Italic Cursive and/or Italic Calligraphy very easily after, if desired.
Let's be honest, does any one really print ball and stick? Not really, we all end up curving lines or getting sloppy. But, with Italics I think it puts all those natural/logical curves in there so that it is really feasible to write with it while taking notes in class, etc. yet maintain a certain beauty.
Okay, I will get off my soap box!!
Betsy
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Maryan
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True!
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Maryan
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CatholicMommy
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From the Montessori perspective, we utilize cursive. Now my son is 5 and he's also learning print (italic style), but he started with cursive (actually he started with a combination of both, but that's another thread!).
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kuehnemom
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To the original poster:
From my experience- My son's traditional cursive was "going nowhere" at about age 11, so I said "Lets try Italics! We'll all learn it!" (I even got myself the adult book and worked through it.) The end result (said ds is now nearing 20yo) was that ds ended up with beautiful penmanship in the end. Muchbetter than I had ever hoped for with regular cursive.
I think the transition to cursive with italics is the key to its success- its so natural and easy. We began with the first book in the series that did some manuscript and then moved into cursive. From there on we worked through the rest of the books.
HTH,
Theresa
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JennGM
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I could just cry. When I started this thread I had already decided that I thought Dubay would work for us, and I had the books coming.
Where was my observation skills? I didn't notice that the Ascenders and Capital letters don't go all to the top line. Of course, that's how Italic works, but I really didn't want that aspect for the printing.
I know it's minor in the scheme of things, but an aspect I wanted. Back to the drawing board....
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Karen T
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My oldest ds learned to print and write cursive in ps and his handwriting was horrible (they admitted to me once they could care less if he learned to write well, since everyone types nowadays  ) When he came home after 5th grade I started him on Getty Dubay, first print and then cursive. He has beautiful handwriting now at age 16!
Dd8 is doing it and also does well. Ds9, though, has had a lot of trouble with it. I really resisted what people kept pushing for kids with dysgraphia - HWOT - I agree it's very ugly. But, it's working well for him so I did make the switch. Maybe eventually he can learn another style.
I don't worry about where the ascenders and capitals reach to - I'm fine with them going to the top. I still really like the way that italic print morphs easily into italic cursive.
btw - I learned with the old ball-and-stick, and then "loops and groups" cursive and I have always printed wonderfully but could never do well with cursive,letters get cramped together, etc. I taught myself the italic and while not perfect, my cursive is much improved and easier for me to write it also!
You might like Barchowsky Fluent hand
Karen
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anitamarie
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Karen T wrote:
Ds9, though, has had a lot of trouble with it. I really resisted what people kept pushing for kids with dysgraphia - HWOT - I agree it's very ugly. But, it's working well for him so I did make the switch. Maybe eventually he can learn another style.
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My ds 11, learned how to print in school, has a horrible pencil grip and atrocious manuscript. I taught him cursive with HWOT, which I thought was ugly as well. He learned it easily. He developed a slant to his cursive and his cursive is truly lovely. I think it helps with basic shapes and then they make it their own. So, there is hope. 
Anita
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pmeilaen
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When I looked at the Italic handwriting, I was disturbed by the fact that it was neither real cursive nor real print. I didn't think it really flowed -- combining the upper case letters with the lower case letters seemed not very smooth. I also didn't like the fact that the letters weren't 100% connected. I found another handwriting style that is a better option in my opinion. It's called SmithHand. Another very different option is the one I ended up using called Lateinische Ausgangsschrift. This one comes from Germany and is similar to the Italic and SmithHand. I now teach first a print alphabet and after a few weeks of practicing those letters, I immediately switch over to that one, all in first grade. I don't let my children write in print at all.
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JennGM
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pmeilaen wrote:
| When I looked at the Italic handwriting, I was disturbed by the fact that it was neither real cursive nor real print. I didn't think it really flowed -- combining the upper case letters with the lower case letters seemed not very smooth. I also didn't like the fact that the letters weren't 100% connected. I found another handwriting style that is a better option in my opinion. It's called SmithHand. Another very different option is the one I ended up using called Lateinische Ausgangsschrift. This one comes from Germany and is similar to the Italic and SmithHand. I now teach first a print alphabet and after a few weeks of practicing those letters, I immediately switch over to that one, all in first grade. I don't let my children write in print at all. |
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Very interesting! I'm loving to learn all these options! Do you know where I can get an illustration of Smithhand manuscript?
I learned the Ball and stick method, and my manuscript transition wasn't bad. But by the time I reached 7th grade my handwriting was atrocious -- all bad habits. I taught myself calligraphy, in particular Italic, and it changed my cursive writing permanently for the good.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Karen T
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I remember reading about that Smithand a few years ago when I was looking at various programs too. I still don't quite understand what they mean by most other scripts are copyhands, not true cursive. I mean, everyone learns to write by copying, and eventually it all has to flow together. I will admit that the problem with the cursive I learned in school is that I can't make it flow well; when I try to write as fast as I'm thinking, the letters get tiny, cramped and mis-shapen. But I figured that was just me. I can print extremely fast, and it's very legible (pharmicists love my prescriptions ) so what drew me to Italic is that it just helps me connect my print letters better into a 'sort-of' cursive - I would never call it a real cursive but it looks more formal than printing, and yet just as neat.
Now this has gotten me interested in penmanship again (I did teach myself calligraphy years ago long before I learned the getty-dubay form, but that was done with the nibbed pens, etc and very slow and laborious) - I'm looking at the old Spencerian script - looks elegant! But I don't think Smithhand looks much of anything like that.
Karen T
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ekbell
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I looked at Smithhand, peered at their cursive sample, checked out the r and winced (bad memories of trying to write proper r's). It most definitely is not designed with left handed people in mind. 
But then mosst cursive hands aren't designed with those of us who will be pushing rather then pulling in mind.
The funny thing is that I'm the only leftie in my family and I'm the only one who uses a cursive hand at all even if it's normally messy.
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pmeilaen
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Jennifer, I don't think there are samples of the manuscript, but it is similar to the D'Nealian manuscript, maybe somewhat simpler and more slanted. There is a review and an interview with the creator of SmithHand here: Review of SmithHand. There are also some reviews of other handwriting programs on that site.
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Eva
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Handwriting
