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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Jan 12 2006 at 9:00pm | IP Logged
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We've been Catholic for about 5 yrs, and in that time, we've lived in two states, one pacific time zone, and one eastern time zone. I noticed that in both areas, the homeschool community was split between attending a local parish, or driving to a "magnet parish." I call it that because in each area, there is one parish that seems to draw out homeschoolers (or large Catholic families with children attending Catholic school), who will often drive long distances to be members there. In both cases, it was not a Latin Mass parish (nor were they schismatic in any way), but they did have some things in common...communion on the tongue and altar rails, a "high mass" feel, more pageantry on feast days (and more feast days celebrated), no girl altar servers, fairly strict and conservative CCD, and confession offered daily.
I've noticed that sometimes there are some negative feelings between the homeschoolers who have made different choices.
Honestly, I can see both sides of the issue. And I think I reevaluate our own choice too sometimes, because I am honestly not sure what is the best thing to do.
I'm not looking to start any controversy. I'm just wondering, since so many of you are longtime Catholics with much more experience than I, what you all think about this, what kinds of decisions your own family has made, and if you are happy with your decisions.
~Books
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teachingmom
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| Posted: Jan 12 2006 at 11:16pm | IP Logged
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We travel out of our geographically designated parish to belong to the next parish over. The parish that we joined when we moved here 6 years ago(and still belong to) was brand new and meeting in a school back then. We have since moved into our own building a year ago. We chose our parish because of a solid, orthodox pastor. Since it was a new parish, we knew that the pastor would have a lot of influence over the development of parish life and had high hopes that it would be a great faith home for our family. We have not been disappointed. The liturgy is great, we have holy hours offered 4 evenings each week with confessions, and we are all being well-formed in our faith. There are a handful of homeschoolers at our parish, but probably not more than in many other parishes in my diocese. The parish in which I live, by contrast, had a more liberal pastor at the time we made our decision, so we were not interested in belonging to that parish. The drive to our church is only about 10 minutes longer than the drive to Mass for the parish in which we live.
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 13 2006 at 12:51am | IP Logged
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We have had to address this in our area (although there really isn't a homeschool magnet parish - closest approved Tridentine is 3 hour drive in a different diocese, other really reverent Masses are 2 hours away and neither of these is a parish (the shrine and another Mass for a religious community) so while most homeschoolers try to attend as often as is feasible for their family, each family has to find a parish home for receiving sacraments.). I really believe that each family must assess their own situation - my understanding is that there is no requirement to abide by general parish boundaries any longer and in our area these are universally ignored by all (not just homeschoolers or even orthodox Catholics). At one time (I think) Catholics were required by canon law to attend the parish in which they lived but that this changed with widespread liturgical abuse. I do know folks from up North are usually surprised at how next door neighbors in our area are registered and attending different parishes (often across town from each other) and it has never been a big deal here. I do not know if parish boundaries were ever observed in this area (perhaps because we were mission territory for so long)- so that aspect has never been an issue here. It may be more difficult for Catholics in areas where boundaries were rigidly enforced for some time and there may be some general confusion about was is or is not allowed.
Also as faithful Catholics we do have the right to Mass celebrated according to the norms of the church.
In our area this is non-existent - some parishes better than others. If we had a parish like the one you describe within a reasonable drive, we'd be there without any hesitation. I do think it very unfortunate that there would be hard feelings about things - it is a matter of prudential judgement as far as I can see and we need to support one another.
I know the idea is not to church hop - run from parish to parish whenever pastors are transferred or whenever something doesn't suit your liking. This, I believe, really should be avoided. There is something about supporting a pastor who is really trying to make improvements and not nit-picking our poor priests to death whenever something isn't perfect. However, this does assume general obedience to the norms of the celebration of the liturgy and other such things. Most of us have experienced extreme and widespread abuses and at some point the fall out from this becomes so destructive to our dc and their spiritual formation that I believe with prayerful prudence it is often necessary to find a supportive, reverent, accepting parish and then stick with it. This will be different for different folks as various factors come into play - ages and vulnerability of dc under your care, your own faith formation (ie how easily will you recognize abuses and be reasonably able to assist the pastor in making improvements or bringing abuses to the attention of those in authority), the length of abuses and their seriousness(those of long standing may not be corrected during your lifetime even by the most diligent and faithful of pastors simply because bad habits are hard to break - also there is a huge difference between an abuse that calls into question the validity or access to the sacraments(use of parishioners to make "host" with homemade recipes - this happened in a parish of mine when I was growing up and there is no wonder that there is very little belief in the real prescence) and something that is approved by the church but which you do not particularly think is wise (altar girls come to mind here). If access to the sacraments were in question, it no longer is even a matter of prudence - if the abuse cannot or will not be immediately corrected then we would go elsewhere right away even if it meant a 2 - 3 hour drive with a car-sick dc. Another consideration is the length of time that you have been exposed to abuses (I think of the frog in boiling water analogy - at some point even the best of us get so worn down that we don't even realize how bad things have gotten). Some of us are stronger than others and some of us need more support at times.
In our area some Catholics have even simply stopped attending local parishes and always go to the more reverent Masses at the shrine. I must admit we continually re-look at this but so far have felt led differently (our ds tends to get car sick and this would involve 4 hours in the car weekly, plus more difficulty approaching about the sacrament and no real parish involvement). These families have had to find ways to get their dc Confirmed and receive First Communion - and somehow at that point they do have to go through a parish. I have not really asked about details of how they accomplish this. We have chosen to stay with the best possible parish we could find in our area (very far from ideal - sometimes I get angry and frustrated and discouraged as I see the fall out and its effects on our dc) and try to supplement with monthly Mass at the shrine or the other religious order Mass that is particularly reverent, frequent access to the Sacraments, we have our ds trained to altar serve for the sisters rather than the parish (as the sisters teach the reverence, they get to serve at a Mass celebrated according to the norms with all boys and what you learn first becomes most deeply ingrained, so even if they do decide they want to serve at the parish they will carry this over)and we need to constantly read documents of the church on areas that touch what we see everyday by way of abuses. Currently I am looking for documents on music and on plays as a part of Mass(I don't think it is allowed but I want dc to hear it from the church's mouth not in a discussion of me against what Father or the DRE allows) as well as re-reading what was said about extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, etc. This way we are trying to teach our dc what the church has told us and they are able to see/recognize abuses in our parish without us being critical of those responsible for liturgy (whom I believe to be sincerely trying to follow the Pope but are left with major confusion because liturgists and others have put such odd spins on things and sometimes instructions from the Vatican sound so different - ie in U.S. the word "norm" implies law and when documents came out about reverence before receiving Holy Communion, we were basically told we were being disobedient if we continued to genuflect before receiving - it was a moment of intense suffering as this was how we had been viewed for years - even though various clarifying correspondence cleared this up in my mind. When the priest instructed us otherwise at a talk on the liturgy which was otherwise quite fabulous, I was in tears and agonized what to do. We spoke to him privately about our agony after some general questions - he told us it all depended on the weight of the letters, what offices were involved, etc. and he would look it up. He did - took it up with the Bishop and ever since our parish bulletin has clear instructions that include genuflection as an act of reverence. Our pastors were following what they thought were clear orders from the Bishop, the Bishop never gave such orders - but how it got translated through the offices and employees of the diocese is anyones guess. Things are a mess from mass confusion, direct and long standing disobedience and misunderstandings all around. It will take a long time to clear it all up. In the meantime, we have been denied our right to a reverent Mass celebrated according to the norms of the church. The Mass does not belong to any individual (lay or clergy) but to the whole church. While we trust God to help us since we are doing the best we know how, still we do see very direct effects on our dc and ourselves.
All of us in the area - regardless of the approach we have taken to the situation - gather together for plays, May crownings, etc. and we all pray for whoever our new bishop will be - especially that he will be more open to having a Tridentine Parish in the area. We are not particularly familiar with the Tridentine but I do want a Mass celebrated according to the rubrics and our family is in need of general support for our homeschooling and our attatchment to traditional reverence and sense of concern for some of the decisions to allow experimentation (children's lectionary, altar girls, Communion on the hand, etc.) Our dc need to not always feel so different - the pressures can get intense.
Janet
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Mary G
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We are smack in between two parishes -- one fairly liberal but good, active families and the other sort of dying on the vine. We were members at the dying on the vine but now are members of the active one. We were letting the teens go to Life Teen, but stopped that.
We also go to a Latin Mass two times per month at another parish -- about 20 minutes away. It's fun because it's in the evening with a potluck afterwards. Almost all the families that go are homeschoolers so it's a good social outlet for all the kids.
I used to be pretty adamant that you went to the parish you lived in. I'm a cradle Catholic that was raised this way. The rules have now changed so you don't "have" to attend your parish -- but I was still of the "bloom where you're planted" school of thought.
I have recently changed my mind on this after seeing the effect of bad liturgies, liberal Catholicism and dumbing down on my kids. I can't, in good conscience, do this to my kids. Here in the Bible Belt we have enough distractions and encouragement to be Protestant, without exposing the kids to bad Catholicism.
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mary
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| Posted: Jan 13 2006 at 6:59am | IP Logged
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We have a similar situation here in that pple either attend their local parish or the 'magnet parish.' however, there is no ill-will between the two groups. sometimes i wish i lived closer to the magnet parish (it's 45min away), but then, we just got a new priest and i think he's terrific. bloom where you are a planted is my feeling.
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MacBeth
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This is such an odd question from our perspective. There are 5 Catholic churches within a mile of our house, and 10 within two miles, etc. While we are registered at the most orthodox one, we also attend one of the others if it is convenient, or if one of the kids is working at another parish.
We chose our parish because the tabernacle is at the center, and the priests are no-nonsense (most of the time). The new pastor is phasing out the altar girls (they are everywhere here, except at Tridentine Masses), and suddenly, there are many boys interested in serving. Someone suggested that as soon as the boys no longer consider it a girl's job, they are more willing to serve.
While most homeschoolers in our area have the same sort of choice we do (a short drive to several parishes), many of the local families attend our church at least sometimes, as we have 8 Sunday Masses. But the large geographical spread of our group (120 miles) precludes all of us from going to one particular church, and luckily, there are enough choices.
Some of the families attend only the Tridentine Mass (we do every other week). Some split their time, like we do. Some prefer their local parishes. As far as I have heard, no one gives any one else a hard time about what parish they attend, except many years ago, when I began homeschooing, an older couple suggested that I wasn't mature enough in my faith yet  . I stopped going to homeschooing meetings for years after that. Now we all intermingle freely  , and as far as I know, no one is offended.
I can't help myself. I have been looking for a photo of the interior of the church for a while, and Libby finally took one, after Mass when the boys (Trip and cousin) were handing out candy for Epiphany.
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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Elizabeth
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I hit on this in the How Catholic is Your Curriculum thread. We started at Irene's parish. Actually, I think we might have been the first people to register. And we loved it there, except that I felt sort of left out socially, since it wasn't my neighborhood and everybody knew everybody else.
Then, a mission began in my neighborhood. I knew the pastor was a loose cannon but I talked with the pastor at the good parish and he supported the idea of us joining in order to try to influence the new mission. Admittedly, I had some grandiose notions of evangelization. We jumped in with both feet. I started a women's ministry and dh was charter Grand Knight of the Knight's of Columbus.My boys served every week.We loved the CGS program.
But it didn't work over the long haul. I loved being so involved with something in my neighborhood. Because my kids didn't go to neighborhood school, I never really felt connected. Being part of the parish opened all kinds of doors to friendships. But, everything felt like a fight. Every time I wanted to plan something "orthodox," I had to make a case for it. Every time the priest said something that I knew wasn't solid Catholic teaching and I mentioned it to the other women (because I couldn't keep my mouth shut), I felt like I was spreading ill will. And, there was that social misfit thing too. I had way more kids and my lifestyle is, by necessity, very different. I took a couple of very dear friendships away from the experience, but I took a whole lot of pain too.
I sobbed my way through spiritual direction with the "good pastor" and I'm still sorting through the mess.
If there is a solid parish available to you, by all means, go there.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Courtney
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Okay, I'm putting myself out here now to reveal my ignorance: I converted 11 years ago but have learned so much more about the Catholic faith just in the last few years (since homeschooling  ). That being said, I'm not certain I'd know a 'solid' parish. We live near three parishes. One I really don't like to attend b/c there is no regular priest and the church is pretty much run by the nuns (not that that is a bad thing). We went ot Ash Wednesday mass there a couple of years ago and one of the sisters did the mass.
Another parish in our area has a priest who is married. He was Episcopal and was "grandfathered" in when he converted.
The church we attend regularly feels most "Catholic" to me. I have found more homeschoolers there than at the other two. Also, the DRE at our parish has no problem with me keeping my dc home from the religious ed program there. My questions are: what should I be looking for or looking out for?
I feel so young in my faith sometimes but I feel blessed to take this journey along with my children.
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Courtney in Texas
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Mom to Candace 10/97,Christopher 4/00 and Connor 11/11
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mumofsix
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We have finally made the firm decision, after nearly a decade of wavering, to go to a parish other than our own, local parish.
The dilemma is this: our own parish is dying. We have a poor priest who should be allowed to retire, imo. He is "forgetful" to the point of turning up half an hour late for Sunday Mass because he forgot it was Sunday and speaks about his mother as if she were still alive, when she has been dead these two years. He falls out with people and just cannot really cope.
The congregation is in free-fall. Nature abhors a vacuum and you can be sure that the Ladies Who Think They Should Have Been Priests are tramping all over the sanctuary, both literally and figuratively. There is no real discipline, which is why the sad lady who recently made a malicious allegation against us felt able to do so. (It was thrown out within two weeks, but it was a horrible experience while it lasted.)
There are almost no teenagers here, few children and lots of old people. Many of the old people are lovely: they have frequently commented to me, sometimes with tears in their eyes, how lovely it is to see young children and especially teenagers in the church. They are the main reason we have stayed, at least part-time, for all these years. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ, our nearest ones.
However, when your devout and enthusiastic teenagers let you know that they would almost rather not go to Mass at all than go to this parish, it is time to act.
Meanwhile, less than five miles away (we too live in a big city) there is the Congregation of the Oratory which also run a parish. Here lived Cardinal Newman: you can still see his rooms, exactly as he left them, with picures of his friends on the walls near his tiny private chapel, and chits for feasts at the Plough and Harrow next door lying on his desk. It is a place filled with 150 years of reverence and prayer and devotion. We hear the riches of the best of church music from down the centuries at Sunday Mass, sung by a superb polyphonic choir. We kneel for Communion: there is such reverence for the Blessed Sacrament. My children beg to go.
Best of all, Confession is available for several hours each day, from a choice of priests including during Mass. (How many people know that having a choice of priests for Confession was traditionally regarded as essential for the freedom of the faithful?) All my children go to Confession regularly. At our own parish, the first thing our parish priest did when he was new was to reduce Confession times from one hour a week to half an hour a week, on a Saturday mid-morning while my children are variously at swimming lessons, orchestra or army reserves.
Availability of Confession is crucial. Most young people leave the church. They almost always begin their exit by giving up the sacrament of Confession first.
For years we attended both parishes, alternately. We have thereby failed to be fully active members of either. I feel sad at leaving the lovely elderly at my own parish, but God gave me a particular commission that over-rules everything else: my job is to do my level best to help my six children attain their eternal salvation. Nothing comes close to that, and to continue at our own parish would, I believe, potentially imperil that, so there is no contest.
My brother, a parish priest, who therefore stands to lose by this practice of parish-hopping, said to me, unequivocally: "VOTE WITH YOUR FEET". (He is actually a huge beneficiary of this practice however, and many surrounding parishes the losers, so perhaps his is not such an objective voice!) Only this way will liturgical abuses and sheer unChristian behaviour cease.
Jane.
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Mary G
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MacBeth wrote:
This is such an odd question from our perspective. There are 5 Catholic churches within a mile of our house, and 10 within two miles, etc. While we are registered at the most orthodox one, we also attend one of the others if it is convenient, or if one of the kids is working at another parish.
We chose our parish because the tabernacle is at the center, and the priests are no-nonsense (most of the time). The new pastor is phasing out the altar girls (they are everywhere here, except at Tridentine Masses), and suddenly, there are many boys interested in serving. Someone suggested that as soon as the boys no longer consider it a girl's job, they are more willing to serve.
While most homeschoolers in our area have the same sort of choice we do (a short drive to several parishes), many of the local families attend our church at least sometimes, as we have 8 Sunday Masses. But the large geographical spread of our group (120 miles) precludes all of us from going to one particular church, and luckily, there are enough choices.
Some of the families attend only the Tridentine Mass (we do every other week). Some split their time, like we do. Some prefer their local parishes. As far as I have heard, no one gives any one else a hard time about what parish they attend, except many years ago, when I began homeschooing, an older couple suggested that I wasn't mature enough in my faith yet . I stopped going to homeschooing meetings for years after that. Now we all intermingle freely , and as far as I know, no one is offended.
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MacBeth -- this is exactly what I grew up with in San Francisco -- parishes every mile (most with parochial schools) and all had their own chrisms. We attended our parish but went to a french school downtown so sometimes attended the French parish becuase my brothers served at their Masses. We always felt weird going to our non-parish. But as you mentioned, sometimes it just worked out that we had to go to another parish becuae of iming or location.
Now, SF is not like that anymore  -- still lots of parishes but you have to be careful which ones you attend. 
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MaryG
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Bookswithtea
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I think for us, if the option was a dying or ultraliberal parish versus a magnet parish, the answer would be an easy one.
For us, the closest parish is about 20 minutes away. The priest is young and enthusiastic. The surrounding community is growing. I suspect this priest has lots of plans for the future. I think he is orthodox (he's new). He's a fabulous homilist.
Downsides? A lot of girl altar servers and few boys. My dd wants to serve next year when she is old enough, and you should have SEEN the look on my oldest ds's face when he realized she was almost old enough to do this. I have this horrible feeling he's going to quit when she is old enough. I can't say why, since I wasn't even a part of the RCC when it was an all boy thing, but it bugs me to see girls up there. And I don't know how to tell my dd I don't like it when the parish welcomes it, kwim?
CCD is not horrible, but its not good, either (we just don't attend). And I don't like the middle school youth group, which seems to be based entirely around fellowship and social events (including some activities we wouldn't do at all, like xbox tournaments!). There is no Lifeteen or anything like that.
There isn't a lot of pageantry or high mass feast day kinds of things. My kids have never even seen a communion rail or a Mass where everyone receives on the tongue (truth be told, I've only seen it on tv, myself).
The magnet parish is an hour away. Its run by ordered priests (Dominicans, I think).
They have boy only altar servers, and some very good looking jr high and high school programs. They do all the processions for feast days and celebrations of the Rosary and stuff like that. The CCD is excellent, from what I've heard.
Downsides? I've met some of the hsers who attend this parish (not all, by any means, so I'm not making a judgment on the whole parish). They act as if NO OTHER parish in the area is holy. They are kind of fundamentalist. I used to be a fundamentalist protestant, so I'm kind of leery of this kind of thing. Also, its hard to get involved when its that far away. The geography of this is that we live in the country, 40 minutes north of a large city. The magnet parish is on the *south* side of the city. So it feels like a very long way away. Having ds serve at the altar there or if he got involved in the youth groups would be very difficult... getting him there is the problem. (Dh works rotating shifts and I've got babies and toddlers in the house still).
A dear hsing friend of mine (we live about 5 minutes from each other) is making the drive now. She doesn't dislike our local parish, she just likes all the bonuses of the magnet parish. She does a lot of driving, and attends locally when they just can't get there.
I just don't know. All this talk about how teens are begging to attend the high mass parishes makes me wonder if we are not giving our children what they need to really love the Mass? Our local parish Masses are not irreverent and the priest is good. Its just not that high mass feel with the communion rails and processional feast day stuff. And I am leery of putting them in CCD.
Maybe those of you who have shared about your teens asking to go to the magnet parish...could you share what your teens liked about the magnet parish? What is it that draws them? Why do they only want to attend a parish like this?
I don't understand teens. I'm still having regular panic attacks as I watch my oldest (12) turn into a teen, so I am way out of my league when it comes to leading teens into a vibrant faith for life.
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ALmom
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MacBeth,
Please pray for those of us who do not have the great opportunity you do for solid, orthodox liturgy in a parish home. It has been a tremendous cross for our family.
In terms of the question about orthodox liturgy - my first suggestion to help discern is to read the documents on liturgy from Vatican II (they say things like Gregorian chant should have primacy of place). They also talk about how nothing in the words of the prayers of the Mass should be altered. (We never get to pray the Lamb of God as written - it is turned into a musical litany with all kinds of titles for our Lord -with only the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world being said once at the beginning and lost in the rest of the song - also sometimes the Psalm is replaced by a hymn) Then you can also look at the letter of JP II on the Eucharist. He said a lot about the excessive use of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, and the blurring of roles between priest and laity, etc.
It is also generally pretty obvious by other aspects - at our parish there is no silence, ever - either before, during, or after the Mass. People enter and leave at will throughout Mass, talk while prayers are ongoing (the usher shouted instructions for lining up for Communion during the "Lamb of God "litany" during the 5PM Christmas Eve Mass), fill every minute with music (to include bongo drums as a Communion meditation and instrumental music throughout the first part of the Eucharistic prayer) and do not hesitate to hug and greet one another as they are approaching Communion. We have also been subjected to plays done after the gospel and before the homily, a loud boom box blaring rock music (eventually I think the words were the Our Father but it was hard to tell) while some teens did something that resembled dance (guess it technically wasn't because the feet never left the ground). Even those involved in liturgy have no embarrassment about loud talking in the sanctuary - even immediately after Mass.
We have been interrupted in prayer - people actually going so far as to tap us while we are kneeling and praying to try and carry on conversations about incidentals - (We always struggle how to handle these as we do not talk in the sanctuary - if I can respond with a smile and a whispered thank-you so be it. If not, I have been known to motion towards the vestibule, quietly leave my praying family in peace and try to politely expedite the conversation without offense outside the sanctuary before returning to finish my thanksgiving.)
Our dc have been in tears because they couldn't concentrate to make their thanksgiving. Our dd wanted to know if she had to sit with the group for Confirmation (couldn't she just sit with us) as they had chatted throughout Mass at a Confirmation Prep function. Also a good portion of the congregation leaves directly from Communion. There seems to be a sense that we have to be entertained to keep us from bolting to the nearest Protestant church. Every parish we have been to includes a priest either thanking everyone for being there (including the deacon who gave the homily)or cracking jokes in the homily and at some point or another we are asked to give a round of applause to someone for something. If the priest is asking some lady to give the homily or blasting the bishop from the pulpit, that is a pretty direct clue (this is the pastor of our geographical church (5 minutes away) - we belong to a parish about 20 minutes away. All the parishes in our area (within an 1 hours drive) hold hands during the Our Father, the sign of Peace becomes a chat session (to greater or lesser degree). These are no better than the one to which we belong (some of them are worse). If the shrine or the others were parishes, I think we would drive the 2 hours (even though it is hard on our littles to be in the car that long).
I'm not necessarily saying that the priests are always particularly unorthodox (except for the one blasting the bishop) - we have respected all our pastors. One parish involved a very elderly priest who was very dear to us - people took advantage of his age and ill health. We have seen priests try to make improvements - and have seen marked improvements. However, the liberal, silliness has been entrenched for so long that it is extremely difficult and there are often those delegated to different aspects that still get goofy information from publications - and our bishop is a long ways off - right now we don't have one. We avoid any Masses that involve the children or youth choir (except that our oldest is the accompaniest for the children's choir so now we have to discern our obligation here), try to attend the earliest AM Mass (tends to have less of the silliness, we have discovered) and are grateful for some very good confessors (although confession is only available for 30 minutes before the Saturday evening Mass and we were initially frustrated because we often didn't make it in - the priest had to refuse confession in order to say Mass. Now there is a priest that will hear confessions after the Mass if everyone hasn't gotten in beforehand and he takes his time so you don't feel like you are being rushed through the McDonalds version of Confession). If dc come out of confession confused because the words of absolution are changed - thats definitely a problem. Or if you are told not to use the Act of Contrition because we cannot offend God (that happened to me), there is definitely a problem. We avoid communal pennance services (or make sure we wait to the bitter end in order to get a familiar priest)for these reasons.
I guess I've diverged (and probably whined too much!) but I guess my point is that you generally see some aspect of the liberalism in your face if it is there. It is very entrenched in our area. I'm not saying that we complain about every little thing (we once saw a very orthodox priest at Mother's (before she built the shrine) get jumped on for a single word slip) and we have tried to remain positive and supportive of our priests and put the best possible light on what we see. However, what we see has a huge impact on us all, especially when it is repeated over the course of many years and we do have some sort of obligation to our dc as well.
Janet
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guitarnan
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Janet,
Wow. I'm stunned. I've been Catholic all my life, grew up in a parish-hopping family (my parents just switched parishes last year AGAIN!) and I've never been to a parish like the one you've described.
Guess I have less to worry about than I thought. We're such a tiny parish that we're kind of stuck with the way things are right now (reading the responsorial psalm truly annoys me, but I'm suddenly grateful for our spoken Lamb of God!). All kids' presentations are done right after Mass, never during.
Bookswithtea, I can totally understand your concerns. That long drive can really wear you out. I know; I do it. Our closest parish is half an hour away and we almost never go to any weekday events because of the distance. The next closest parish is an hour away - it's a big, vibrant parish but I just can't commit to slogging over the mountain for Mass, music practice, etc. I'd have to live inside my van. It's a tough choice. (Maybe I'd be different if the drive were flat...I don't know.)
Regarding altar serving, is there a possibility that your pastor could assign your son to serve with other boys, not with girls? I can't tell if it's all girls that would bother him or if it's the Pesky Sister Effect, which we have going on all the time here.
At my house we have a different problem. We're putting up with our driving situation as we prepare to move back to our "parish of the heart" in Maryland, where our son was baptized and where we still have many friends. Now my son has no interest at all in getting involved there. Not Lifeteen, not CCD, nothing. Maybe this is a topic for a new thread, but I'm really worried he'll retreat into his room and never come out. He's pretty shy and has not found any kindred spirits here to hang out with (well, there's one teen at our parish but he lives so far away!), and now he's reluctant to start yet again and try to find friends. We already know which parish we want to join (and it's not the geographical one, that one is way too modern...the sanctuary is a long rectangle and there is a weird bronze thing that I guess is supposed to be a risen Christ...). Now I can't get my son to agree to attend anything but Sunday Mass. Sigh.
Great topic. It's often very hard to decide what to do. I'll keep everyone in my prayers!
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Marybeth
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Janet,
I am crushed for you. What a burden to carry when all your trying to do is live your faith and grow closer to Our Lord. I will pray for you at Mass. We are so blessed to have two holy and fervent priests at our parish.
God bless everyone!
Marybeth
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ALmom
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Marybeth, Thank you so much! Also for our priests who are really trying to improve things. Their cross must be heavy too.
Janet
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mumofsix
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Hello, Bookswithtea, I will try briefly to explain what it is about the Oratory that my teenagers love, as opposed to our own parish.
1. Confession. This is such a problem for many youngsters. Mine love to go to Confession. Why? (I didn't, as a youngster, or not particularly.) I think it is because the Oratorians love this sacrament and have a special charism for it. They give great spiritual advice. A child or young person feels totally validated and important, as if his or her soul is the most important thing in the universe to God at that moment (which it is, in a way). My 9 year old literally begs to go to Confession every week, and my teenagers go frequently without any prompting. They are treated with such utter respect by these priests.
2. Reverence for the Eucharist. The all pervasive reverence helps their faith, helps them to love Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, makes the whole business of going to Mass higly significant.
3. Wonderful priests who befriend them and talk to them, without being in the least patronising ever, and who give them a tremendous example. They literally love them.
4. The presence of other children and young people in reasonable numbers: they do not feel "strange" and have friends to talk to after Mass. It is socially fun. (Okay not the main point, but important to many youngsters, especially if they are homeschooled.)
4. For my teenage son especially, all male altar servers, including many adult men and teenage boys. He has just started serving again, after a gap of four years. It is so wonderful to see, and he has some really good friends in the other altar servers. Girls on the altar, as well as being inappropriate theologically, definitely will deter most boys, especially more macho ones like my son, from serving. As it is he enjoys a wonderful camaraderie with the priests and other altar servers. The feminisation of religion in recent years has caused many young men to lapse, feeling that the Church is not for them, they are not "nice" enough.
There are other things, but I think these are the main ones.
Jane.
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ALmom
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Bookswithtea:
You don't necessarily have to do one or the other. When my sister moved, they felt the pastor at their geographical parish was a wonderful and holy priest trying to keep things reverent and holy despite some flak from DREs, etc. They felt their family should not abandon him to the liberal demands and were able to have some influence (I think) and at least provide some support.
At the same time, they found out about a Tridentine parish which was 1 hour away. It was too far to travel to on a weekly basis in addition to what they felt was a responsibility to stand by this priest - but they made a once per month committment. It gave their family support, exposed them to truely beautiful liturgies and very solid and tangible help in spiritual direction and support. They also attended here on some of the major feast days where they could really celebrate with others. Their son also could serve here with only boys. Their dc looked forward to this - and it strengthened them all to serve better in their geographical parish. Her son served at daily Mass in their parish church when there weren't a bunch of girls running around - but didn't necessarily go nuts if there was an occassional girl.
They prayed fervantly for guidance, discussed all their feelings about each and my sister let her husband lead the way in the final decision. The dc were not suddenly thrust into a new environment, there was time to reflect and pray as they decided - and a familiarity that allowed for a quick change if things deteriorated in free fall. They and their geographical parish were blessed by this.
I don't know what you have done in terms of prior discussion or how you personally view the altar girl thing - but we have girls and boys as well. Every parish here has more altar girls than altar boys. We don't want to get into a "we know better than the church" mentality but for what it is worth, here is how we handled it. Knowing that our daughters would be approached and encouraged to serve at the altar immediately after First Communion and probably in the year prior to this, we tried to spend some time well ahead of any of these things in discussing the historical aspects of altar serving being a training and encouragement for the priesthood. Since women cannot ever be priests, we didn't think it wise for our girls to chose this mode of service. We, I don't think, ever actually forbid it directly, but I think our daughters had the sense that we would not allow it. We also spoke of how with so many girls serving, the boys hardly get a chance to serve - and perhaps be awakened to a priestly vocation. Our diocese is in desperate need of priests (many of our priests cover 2 parishes an hours drive apart and quite a few were elderly with heart problems, etc. so this was very obvious to them). We felt that this was a step our family could take to encourage priestly vocations. We made clear that the church had granted permission (after people were disobeying the rules of only boys) and each family had to respond as they saw best - so we were not saying that the girls that were serving were doing anything disobedient. We then spoke of different areas in which she could serve Our Lord. As a result of our discussion, I got involved with Sacristy work and we did that together. Neither of our girls ever expressed a desire to serve despite being asked numerous times by the DRE. (We do know some young ladies in our area that did serve, and funny thing - because serving at the altar is so connected to the priesthood and the particular parish had a very feminist agenda in all areas, one poor girl was absolutely offended and shocked when the Pope came out with his document about how women could not be priests - she had planned on being a priest. I don't think this would necessarily happen where the children are better catechized but I do think it illustrates the connection between the two).
I know someone said something about finding the homeschool magnet in their area having some families that seemed sort of fundamentalist. I know it is hard when there seems to be a division in a Catholic group - its easy to come away feeling judged like you are not Catholic enough. It is also the result of sin or the devil somewhere to divide us and usually there is at least some dose of pride thrown in - but it might be easier to be compassionate to these families if you see it from a little different perspective.
Perhaps these very families have suffered from extreme silly liturgies. We have seen this in our area for sure (and in some places where we have traveled). It is very hard for us to not be angry and bitter(and sometimes we give into discouragement and sin and complain). Sometimes it pushes people in what seems an extreme, opposite position while their thirsty spirits are refreshed. If you have been starved for years, then you need very special care, if that makes any sense. We (stuck with liberal parishes) hear a lot about accepting differences - but it doesn't seem to extend to reverence. There is a hesitation to correct abuses even by very Holy priests that we don't fully understand (and surely there are factors in the decisions that we do not know about and which is not our business) but sometimes it seems to be rooted in fear to offend. Yet, there doesn't seem to be any concern about shocking and offending those who simply want a reverent Mass without any showmanship or joking, children's plays, dances, etc. When we asked about a Tridentine Mass, we were told it would be divisive (but bongo drums and liturgical dance and changing the words of the Mass prayers are not?)
We have seen people so pushed and hurt that they no longer attend approved Masses - these were not people that started out believing that the Tridentine Mass was the only acceptable Mass, some of these people we know well and they are very dear to us. The woman that prepared me for First Communion is no longer Catholic, she became Greek Orthodox when our parish altar was destroyed and the statues and relics left in the gutter. We have people in this area so bitter, they do not go anywhere. We have many that are being very tempted to the unapproved Tridentine and many who attend this exclusively after begging for access to an approved Tridentine (not necessarily because they even started out that attached to it - but because it was the only way they knew to guarantee access to a reverent liturgy according to the mind of the church). Thank God that your area has something available for people who have been so deeply hurt by the sin and irreverence that pervades our society. When the only Novos Ordo you have seen for the last 20 years or more is irreverent, full of shocking and scandalous behaviour and practices (we were at a Mass in Chicago where the priest actually processed down the aisle with a suitcase, the priest and lay ministers joked throughout the Lamb of God, the homily was all about the priest's transfer and he actually placed his suitcase on the altar - yet we chose to attend Mass here because of the traditional look of the church with a beautiful, old altar and were there for a wedding so didn't know the parishes) and you have not had access to anything approaching reverence for a long time, then it is very hard not to begin to wonder if the Novos Ordo is legit (of course it is legitimate - but emotionally it is very hard and some folks find suspect literature just at their most vulnerable moments).
One of our friends that belongs to a Priestly Fraternity Parish in another state does sometimes get annoyed by folks that do not think the Novos Ordo is legitimate but with beautiful liturgies, healing of years of hurt, access to the approved Tridentine and gentle leading and instruction by the pastor - these spirits can be healed. Sin and bad liturgies cause harm much deeper than the obvious and it takes time. Please be patient and forbearing with these people. Pride really affects us all, and I'm not saying that this isn't part of the problem - but understanding what some of these people may have seen and dealt with over the years may help you "bear with them" a bit.
Hope this helps some.
Janet
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Jan 14 2006 at 9:28pm | IP Logged
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Janet,
You've given the best defense of all-male altar servers I've ever encountered. Thanks so much for your insight!
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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MacBeth
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ALmom wrote:
MacBeth,
Please pray for those of us who do not have the great opportunity you do for solid, orthodox liturgy in a parish home. It has been a tremendous cross for our family.
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Absolutely. As I have traveled around the country, I have been educated in a big way. It never occurred to me that everyone didn't have the choices we have. In one place, I asked my host where the next parish was, and he said, "15 miles." Another person said she travelled 45 miles to a particular parish. And those big churches? All protestant. Around here, big churches are Catholic or mainstream protestant, and evangelical churches are often storefront "Iglesias" with a few exceptions. I marvel at the baptist church complexes down south.  They are huge!
The issue that "books" bought up seems to be most apparent to us when Libby is at "camp". When she was in VT, the camp took kids who wanted to go to church to the Weston Priory, which was the strangest "Mass" I have ever seen, including no real liturgy, prayers to the 4 cardinal directions, vague guitar strumming that droned on and on, and, since it was outside, a host of farm animal sounds. Oh, and the "Eucharist" was self-serve pita bread. The Benedictine serving it (out of a basket) smiled, but didn't even say "Body of Christ". Whenever we could, we took her to a mission church run by a fastidious priest who was orthodox in action and homily.
Last year, the closest church (we arranged transport with a former prof. of mine, but it was within biking distance) was better, but still had problems, like a huge number of lay people (11!) milling about the altar, and during the consecration, one priest ran up to the other to have a conversation ! And even though there were three priests there, they sat and let the EMHCs distribute the Eucharist.
I could go on for days about music issues (we are particularly sensitive to that here ), but I can give most of that a pass if the Mass is done properly.
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God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Jan 15 2006 at 9:05am | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
Downsides? I've met some of the hsers who attend this parish (not all, by any means, so I'm not making a judgment on the whole parish). They act as if NO OTHER parish in the area is holy. They are kind of fundamentalist.
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That is a concern, especially at indult Masses. At the closest indult, it says clearly in the bulletin that the Bishop allows the Tridentine Mass, and that we are faithful to the magisterium. Someone asked me recently, however, if I had ever noticed any schismatic talk. Honestly, I have not heard any recently, but when I began homeschooling, I heard a good deal of it, and I felt it was wrong then, and I still feel it is wrong. OTOH, as I have seen such oddities at other churches, I begin to wonder where things are headed.
That is not to say that we do not have conversations about liturgical abuses. But I think it takes on a very different tone when there are so many choices. Almost everyone I meet has been to a parish where something wasn't quite right, but we just exchange knowing glances  and understand. I have a very good friend who has two daughters, both of whom serve at the altar, so there are some conversations that we never have. But again, I don't have to go to that church.
I wish I had some advice for folks with so few choices as many of you have. Overall, the only thing I can suggest is to find a parish that follows the GIRM as closely as possible. I like Jane's suggestion: "Vote with your feet", but I know for many, it becomes "vote with your car", and therefore, "vote with your wallet" at the pump!
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Do you attend a local parish?
