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MarilynW
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The thread on books for tween and teen girls has got me started on the whole fantasy genre. We have our own 4real fantasy author  who has been a great help to me and I hope will contribute. I re-read Landscape with Dragons - and it has scared me a lot more, and I was uneasy about a lot of young adult fantasy fiction anyway. The author basically endorsed Tolkein and CS Lewis and everyone else (including Madeline l'Engle's
Wrinkle in Time series) is in a gray area. Some kind person sent me a link to someone's blog (Willa's?) where I think there was a positive presentation of the teen fantasy genre. Unfortunately I lost the email.
I would love to hear both sides. As I mentioned in the post - apart from CS Lewis I am not over keen on the genre, so I find it hard to make a judgement.
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Bridget
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Marilyn, I have the same problem. My kids like the genre but I have concerns about most of it. I don't have any answers. I keep meaning to ask their literature prof, but he is always so busy. I'm glad you brought it up.
I will say that my older kids write a lot of fantasy/science fiction. The boys belong to a writing club. But their stories have an unmistakable Catholic slant.
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I should mention that my oldest did read Landscape With Dragons. I think that has helped him discern (for the most part) what is worthy and what isn't.
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Natalia
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I have not read Landscape With Dragons. What are his objection to Fantasy other than Tolkien and Lewis?
This is a timely thread for me as yesterday my dd (16) was talking about a book recommended to her by another girl at her dance studio. It is the Magic Circle Quartet ( I don't remember the author). The tittle raised an immediate concern but, my dd is almost 16...
I am not as strict as others here. My kids have read Harry Potter and enjoyed the books immensely. Now my son is immerse on the Ranger Apprentice and Percy Jackson series, which are fantasy. I have not read much Fantasy myself. I don't particularly care for it but my dc seem to gravitate towards this genre. So my questions (piggybacking on Marilyn's post):
Why does Fantasy seem to raise so much concern?
What is the danger?
What makes some fantasy books OK and others not OK? Is it solely the presence of magic? Do all fantasy books involve magic?
PS.Marilyn, Who is the author on this forum?
PS2 Can somebody direct me to the thread on books for girls? I must have missed them.
Thanks,
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MarilynW
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Natalia - we find Rangers Apprentice and Percy Jackson fine - dh has read and finds them ok.
My worry is about the young adult fiction (I could send you my dd's list of 435 books! ) - they seem to me to be dark and brooding. Have you got the book Landscape with Dragons - he has a lot to say about fantasy. When I have a spare arm later I will post you some quotes.
Angela is the writer - and she has been so helpful to me.
The thread is here
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Angel
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Well, like I told Marilyn, I'm not really *much* of a fantasy writer; I've only had a few stories published, for adults, and those several years ago. I haven't actually written any fiction in a while because I've been too busy taking care of little ones (and bigger ones). Most of my own stories were written before my reversion to the Church. As I was in the middle of coming back to the Church, I stopped and asked myself just what I was doing... because as has been noted, the genre is a bit dark these days. But just because SOME books are dark or otherwise inappropriate (thinking of Phillip Pullman's books here), it doesn't mean that ALL books in the genre are bad.
It may help to think of fantasy in terms of fairy tales. I think most people here feel all right about reading fairy tales to their children. And yet, fairy tales are full of magic, fairies, elves, giants, gnomes, witches, evil sorcerers, dragons, knights on quests, castles, damsels in distress, monsters in need of slaying, talking animals, thieves, swords,... etc. Fantasy, as a modern genre, owes most of its existence to JRR Tolkein, whom even the most die-hard atheist fantasy writer generally still adores... but deeper than that, fantasy stories have their roots in fairy tales, medieval epics, and mythology. As I was chatting with Marilyn, when done well fantasy can be very moral -- it's about good vs. evil, duty, honor, love. It just tells these kinds of stories in an imaginative realm rather than the real world. (OR, it tells this kind of story in the real world with imaginary creatures.)
I don't think the problem with dark, surly, moody, broody stories only applies to fantasy these days, but I think that fantasy's use of "magic" makes many people nervous. However, I would consider reading fantasy, as a genre, less damaging to my tween/teen-age girl, say, than those YA romance books. I would not recommend reading EVERY YA fantasy published, and I have vetoed books my son has brought home from the library. Mostly I veto them because they are part of the current crop of YA urban fantasy, and the real-world characters are engaging in talk or behavior that he is not mature enough to deal with yet... or that I don't want him to deal with, period.
Here I should mention a bit about how the publishing industry works. The reason YA fantasy is so big right now is because of Harry Potter. Harry Potter was not "high" fantasy; it didn't have castles or kings or knights or swords... although it did have a few dragons. It had modern-day characters. So I think that the reason you're seeing so many YA books with modern-day teens and magical creatures as characters is directly related to the fact that publishers want to publish these sorts of books right now. My ds bemoans the fact that there is so little YA science fiction out there right now, but it's directly related to the fact that YA fantasy is selling, and a particular kind of YA fantasy is selling, and so that's what's being focused on -- bought, marketed, etc. There are, of course, exceptions to this "rule": if an editor runs across a book that he or she thinks is really good, that editor is going to buy it anyway. So not ALL YA fantasy is going to be in this urban fantasy vein... which is where I think that most of the books that have the words "dark" or "edgy" on their back covers happen to be.
Anyway, it looks like my dd is finally ready to do her math and my ds needs help with a report, but here's a link to an article by Martin Cothran I found helpful:
Harry Potter and the Attack of the Critics
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MarilynW
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Bridget wrote:
| I should mention that my oldest did read Landscape With Dragons. I think that has helped him discern (for the most part) what is worthy and what isn't. |
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Thanks for your input Bridget. My dd used to use the book lists in LWD a lot when going to the library etc. I read a lot of the fantasy chapter aloud to everyone at breakfast yesterday - and I hope she will be inspired to read the book. I really like his TV chapter too.
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anitamarie
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Natalia wrote:
| I have not read Landscape With Dragons. What are his objection to Fantasy other than Tolkien and Lewis? |
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His main objection is the inversion of good and evil in these books. For example, dragons were considered a symbol of Satan and are now protrayed as sympathetic characters and/or heroes, ditto witches and vampires. He doesn't really object to all fantasy but he does have a sort of "sliding scale" cost/benefit analysis of many titles and authors. It's worth the read, just to get an opinion. I would bet he is more on the strict side than many on this forum, though, including me. We've read Harry Potter, the Charlie Bone books, and are starting down the Percy Jackson path.
Hope this helps.
Anita
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Thanks for posting Angela - so much to think about there. I read the Martin Cochran article - and like it. I will have my dh read your post too - the problem I have is that there are just so many books out there to try and review. Dh has read Harry Potter with dd and found them ok ( I have never read) I am trying to sell this to dd with showing her how many good alternatives there are - as well as pointing out the dangers. So far I am not succeeding 
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JodieLyn
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Fantasy and Sci-Fi are on a slippery slope. If you take modern ideas out far enough you have "worlds" that can be (and are) written about that portray cloning as ok, any sort (sex or number) of adults living together as marital.. homosexuality is usually portrayed as ok.. basically a lot of the sexual norms and mores are part of what is challenged. Sci-fi tends to be better there but you get a lot of limits on the number of children, cloning, and life on other planets and questioning of religion (often seen as superstition)
And that's older and newer stuff.. Heinlein, while I would recommend some of his for adults, I would NOT be letting my 12 yr old be reading him. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" for instance, brings up interesting challenges to how society works.. and one of the things that is changed is how marriage works.. it's not about religion but about legalities of property ownership and such. But it's very thought provoking in many ways. But definately not for children (who aren't as old as they think they are )
And the categories are so broad.. not that there's enough out there to reduce it further.. but one book may be labeled fantasy because it's like a fairytale (with clear cut good and evil).. and another because it's written in a whole other world.. like Tolkein.
And like all categories of books there's good books and bad books and good writing and poor writing (and sometimes the good writing is a bad book).
And series can be trickier I think.. simply because with fantasy you're going that one step "out there" to start with.. and each new book almost raises the challenge to take another step out.
And what bothers one person may not bother another. I read a couple of Harry Potter and nixed them.. and it had nothing to do with it being fantasy or having magic etc in them. I found much more mundane objections. Not saying anyone else would be bothered by those same things.. different kids, different experiences, different lifestyles.. all mean that what I might not allow would be fine at your house.. and vice versa.
At this point.. I read fast and we don't use the library much so my 12 yr old is stuck reading what we have or borrow and I can usually snag them and read them before she does.. because I can read young adult fiction in a matter of hours.
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In case I wasn't clear, the slippery slope is the pushing the boundaries, challenging the status quo, to go that one step further to find a "new dimension".
The challenges can be good but oft times the presentation is bad. For instance Haddix, shows the bad side of gov't limiting children and hidden children. Marion Zimmer Bradley on the other hand writes some where cloning is seen as a reasonable thing.
On the one hand you are challenged to look where we are and where we're going and on the other you're being made to see something inherantly wrong as good. (the very twisting of truth that Landscape with Dragons warns of)
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sarahb
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Im not a fantasy fan but that is a matter of personal taste. My son is an avid reader of fantasy.
I think Landscape with Draons is a needlessly strict approach, personally but Im admittedly very liberal in what I will allow. The idea that dragons were always synonymous with evil is silly since My Father's Dragon and other children's fiction about dragons has existed for a long time and portrayed dragons in a cute way. pete's dragon is an old disney movie for example.
I think in general read and discuss beats dont read it at all any day of the week, no matter what genre you are talking about.
And throwing out a whole genre seems like a really uninformed biased approach to the whole situation. (nt that anyone here would do that necessarily.)
I think laregly people are uncomfortable because probably like me they rpefer cute stuff like Anne of Green Gables and Alcott and so on. Its just that fantasy seems well...odd.
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Natalia
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sarahb wrote:
| I think in general read and discuss beats dont read it at all any day of the week, no matter what genre you are talking about. |
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What do you do when you are not available to discuss? I find it hard to discuss a book when I haven't read it. And as much as I like to read, I don't have the time to read everything my children read.
I agree with you that we should not throw out a whole genre because some books are bad. If I did this, I would never read any Christian fiction because I find some of them so badly written.
I think I am a middle of the road person when it comes to what I let my kids read.What is hard about fantasy, for me, is that I don't like it. And I don't like it not because I am afraid of magic but because I can't relate to it. Maybe I lack imagination, or maybe I am not smart enough. It seems that a lot of smart people like fantasy
 So it is not so much that it makes me uncomfortable but, as you said, a matter of personal taste.
Angel, I like your post very much. It clarifies what is consider fantasy and why. I will have to get a hold on a copy of LWD. I always disregarded it because some people I respect consider it too extremist.
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MarilynW
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sarahb wrote:
I think in general read and discuss beats dont read it at all any day of the week, no matter what genre you are talking about.
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Sarah I would agree - problem arises when parents are unable to do this. We manage to dicscuss technology and watch movies as a family. But my children are voracious readers and I cannot always discuss what they are reading. Also I am about to have my 6th baby after a tough pregnancy and have not been able to pre-read or discuss every book read.
At this point in time I prefer to play it safe. I have cut a lot of things of her reading list until her father or I have more time to review them. IMO books can be just as damaging to a child as images - once you get certain ideas in your head it is hard to get rid of them. My dd is a lovely girl and we have a great relationship - I want this to continue as she hits the teen years. We had a lot of discussions today - she was not happy at first. But I explained my reasons - and she knows her dad and I are always consistent. And I explained how I don't read certain things because of their effect on my mind and my mood.
Philippians 4v7-8 and Matthew 16V26 are two things we judget a lot of things by in our family - and she was able to understand that.
And I provided her with a lot of really good alternatives - we went through the revised book list and she reviewed the things I put on and was happy. I explained that it was not that she could never read fantasy - just that we would together find the right kind and also vary it so that she is not only reading that genre.
I really like what Jodie said above about them being less grown up than they think. My dd is very responsible and helpful and advanced academically - but she is still a little girl to me and I want to keep her innocence as long as I can.
Just my very long 2 cents worth
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Red Cardigan
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This is an interesting thread. I read a lot of fantasy as a young adult, and am currently hoping to publish a YA science fiction manuscript, fwiw.
I think there are certain specific dangers to some YA fantasy which may, to be honest, be present in some form or other in YA books of other genres. I'm not really a fan of Michael O'Brien's approach, though I haven't read LWD, so maybe it's not fair for me to make assumptions based on his other writings I've encountered. Still, I think some of his generalizations are just that--generalizations. Dragons may have represented evil in Christian fiction (which, since the Genesis passage which refers to the serpent can also be translated dragon, makes some sense) but they represent different things in other cultures, esp. in China where dragons are revered. So a Christian from a Chinese family might not see dragons as always and everywhere a symbol of evil.
Worse, not all Christian literary symbolism is worth retaining, something I don't think O'Brien's book mentions. I speak specifically of the "evil" character common in 14th and 15th century Christian literature, the man in love with money and in cahoots with the devil (often in an actual occult sense), stooped, ugly, bearded, and sinister--the Jew. No one would argue that contemporary literature ought to portray Jewish characters as always evil, no mater what the symbolic literary roots from the Christian past did.
Now, obviously, Jewish people are real human beings who deserve our respect, while dragons are not real and not human. But I think that while for *some* authors having a "good dragon" or "good vampire" or "good wizard" etc. character is about pushing that envelope or blurring the lines between good and evil, for other authors having some member of these "evil" classes be drawn to good is a way of representing that no one is *forced* to be evil, and that even if people think you must be evil it is possible for you to choose good, even heroically.
And that's the problem--how are parents to know whether a book is morally solid or not, especially if they don't have time to read it all, or to read every book that their children want to read?
Asking around, checking reviews esp. those by other parents, reading at least some of the book, finding out something about the author and his/her philosophy etc., can really help. But it's also helpful to teach your children how to recognize a book that is subtly trying to manipulate them or teach them things that are opposed to their Catholic faith and understanding, so that even if a book slips through your filter your child will come to you with the book to talk about the problems with it.
What should they be looking for? For YA fiction in general, I'd ask these questions:
--Is the main character (MC) disrespectful of all authority? Are all or most of the adults in the book evil, weak, foolish, abusive, or absent?
--Is the MC absorbed with his/her own problems, focusing inward on his/her own feelings, desires, etc., with little concern for those around him/her?
--Is the MC an outsider, loaner, misunderstood rebel, troublemaker, or--to put it bluntly--brat? Is the author tending toward *correcting* these problems, or is he/she an admirer of the character as is?
--Does the MC drink, smoke, use drugs, display any sort of promiscuous behavior (even if it's only alluded to), use foul language, or otherwise behave in a way that isn't a good example for young readers?
--Does the MC use "situational ethics" to solve problems (e.g., stealing is wrong, but the MC "has" to do it in this case, etc.)? Exceptions would be stealing food to stay alive or engaging in a prank (such as stealing a rival team's mascot) but only if some lesson is learned from the latter situation.
--Is the main character described as being more than ordinarily attractive to the opposite sex? Do themes of romance, love, physical attraction, etc. occupy a disproportionate amount of the book? Does the author *ever* cross a line in terms of adding in sexual elements that are not appropriate for children as young as eleven (since the YA market is aimed at children from that age to the mid teens)? Any book that openly indicates that characters are physically active with each other should be rejected out of hand; I think that even literary classics which focus on these themes aren't appropriate until later high school, but books which are merely for entertainment have no excuse to include these elements.
These are the big ones, off the top of my head, for YA fiction. Specific to fantasy I'd add the following:
--Do the characters call upon spirits, gods, demons, or other spiritual entities in order to perform their magic?
--Is the character discriminated against for "being" or "doing" magic? (N.B.--the Harry Potter situation with the dual "worlds" isn't really what I'm describing, here--I'm talking of an integrated world where "discriminating against magic people" often deliberately sets up a parallel for "discriminating against homosexuals" or similar social constructs from the real world.)
--In a world where both "good" and "evil" magic exists, in the MC constantly tempted to do "evil" magic and jealous of its power? Is this presented in a morally neutral way, or are there consequences for that?
--Is the MC constantly made to feel superior because of his magical abilities?
--Does the MC use his magic abilities selfishly, for his own gain? Does this behavior go unpunished?
--This is the big one: does the magic, spells, enchantments etc. in the book come from "real" occult practices? The main Harry Potter stuff--waving a wand, chanting a bit of Latin--may *resemble* occult practice to people who don't know about it. But people who do, or ever did, attempt to practice magic agreed that what they did was nothing like that. If your MC is combining a kind of mysticism/meditation with potions that heighten his senses, invocations to a god or goddess or spirit, ritual symbols, natural elements like fire or water used in strange ways, and (sometimes) blood of some sort to achieve his results, there's a good chance the author either knows about occult practice, or included it in the book under the mistaken notion that it's all harmless anyway.
Now, specific to science fiction I'd have them consider these elements:
--Is the fictional universe one in which ordinary morality does not apply (e.g., it's okay to murder your enemies rather than kill them in self defense?) Unless your enemies are killer robots who explode when you get within five feet of them or something, this is clearly not good.
--Like others have said, are cloning, alternative family arrangements, etc. celebrated and/or accepted in this universe?
--Are people who believe the universe was created ridiculed, marginalized, etc.? What is the MC's attitude toward religious people? Do religious people "control" the universe unjustly, such that brave atheists have to fight against them? Is religion itself set up as something silly, weak, or fraudulent?
--If religion in a formal sense is absent from the story (as often happens, and not always for sinister reasons), are the characters morally good, morally neutral, or morally evil? If they are or begin as "neutral," does the author try to draw them toward goodness--or away from it?
--Does the plot ever call for the MC and his companions to kill the innocent, to turn against their families, to behave dishonestly in a serious way, or otherwise to employ "situational ethics" with the excuse that the present state of the universe, galaxy, planet etc. demands it?
I'm sure that others reading this can add to all these lists of concerns. And in our teaching and discussion of literature in the home, we often cover these topics in some way or another.
One final thing--though this is way too long already!--the presence of one of these elements in a story is not necessarily a "dealbreaker." I think it depends a lot on the writer's views and whether the overall trend of the story is to let good triumph over evil. A few of them are the sort of red flags that would make me inclined to discard the book: inappropriate sexual content, real occult magic, or a sci-fi or fantasy universe centered around the author's desire to "debunk" religion. Most of the others are more like "yellow flags," points at which I'd want my children to bring the book to me to talk about it so we could decide if the book was worth reading or not.
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anitamarie
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Actually, Michael O'Brien does discuss the dragon in other cultures, etc. He is very even-handed and fair. He doesn't suggest that all "old" symbols are good and right. He basically instructs parents in the process of discernment similar to the questions Red Cardigan mentions. I don't think he is as extreme as most people think he is. He is just on the conservative side. Like anything else, he's one person with a point-of-view. You can take what you like and leave the rest. He does give us something to think about and then decide for ourselves and our families what's best.
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stellamaris
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One important consideration for me in discerning appropriate books for younger readers (under about 14) is the question,"If my child places themselves in the role of the main character of this book, will they be inspired to more noble behavior or not?" Younger children don't just read books for ideas as older children and adults do, they become immersed in the world of the book. They "take on", mentally, the main character of the book. They enter more directly and less discerningly into the events of the book. For this reason, we allow Narnia. The main characters are striving and growing more noble as they seek to serve Aslan. Similarly, Tolkien's Frodo struggles to overcome temptation and finally is victorious. We don't allow Harry Potter, because having read it, I personally disliked the fact that in his use of magic, he felt the ends justified the means. More serious sci-fi type fiction deals with adult concerns (the fall-out of nuclear war, racial issues, sexual norms, the place of religion, class conflict,etc.) that imo are not appropriate for younger readers, but might have a valid place in a high school level curriculum.
I would limit the reading of fantasy genre more now than I did in the past because I am seeing that the impact on my older children is, for the most part, not so good. It is often escapist reading, rather like romance novels, and for that reason alone does nothing to edify a person. Reading this type of book often tends to make true books about true life seem bland and boring by comparison, and leads to dissatisfaction with one's own lot in life (I have really seen this so often in young wives who are avid romance novel readers). Too much of this genre is like too many donuts...pretty soon your young reader will not want to eat their vegetables!
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teachingmyown
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Beautifully stated, Caroline!
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sarahb
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stellamaris wrote:
I would limit the reading of fantasy genre more now than I did in the past because I am seeing that the impact on my older children is, for the most part, not so good. It is often escapist reading, rather like romance novels, and for that reason alone does nothing to edify a person. Reading this type of book often tends to make true books about true life seem bland and boring by comparison, and leads to dissatisfaction with one's own lot in life (I have really seen this so often in young wives who are avid romance novel readers). Too much of this genre is like too many donuts...pretty soon your young reader will not want to eat their vegetables! |
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hmmm, I can't agree with you on that. Each to his own.
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MarilynW
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| Posted: May 19 2009 at 2:30pm | IP Logged
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teachingmyown wrote:
| Beautifully stated, Caroline! |
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I echo this. Caroline - you have managed to say what I wanted to in a way that I could not. My dd is fine with our decision - she loved the alternatives that I posted for her. She also knows that we do not make unreasonable demands or act unduly restrictive - her dad and I both try to give the children a good example in what we read ( no junk literature for us - though I confess to having a weakness for an occasional John Grisham Also - I am not saying NEVER - I am saying that at 12 there are so many many more edifying books to read. I think you are so right about the escapism and donut descriptions - the mind gets lazy and starts only wanting the one genre.
I think it is just another part of the battle for our children's minds - like technology which has a lot of good, but we need to choose what is better.
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Marilyn
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4Real Forums : Living Literature
Topic: Can we discuss the fantasy genre?
