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ALmom
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| Posted: May 07 2009 at 1:35pm | IP Logged
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Ok, I didn't want to divert the other thread on chemistry that seemed about Singapore and what was available overseas. What about a good chemistry for the U.S. student. My daughter has just finished the chemistry portion of the Prentice Hall Physical Science text that is on Kolbe's plans (with a great tutor who has made science come alive for her) and is trying to finish this up during the summer. She wants to try and finish up chemistry this summer so she can take Anatomy and Physiology next year and maybe graduate next year.
With her tutor, she has done very, very well. But her tutor will be having a baby soon and we may be on our own. Our daughter is a big picture learner so if there is a preponderence of disorganized words, she will get lost. If there is a good overview with practical real life connections and lots of hands on she does really well. She has gone from hating science to considering science related fields with this tutor so I know she is not dumb in science. Just confirmed what I suspected - I am not a science teacher and have no business trying. Of course, now with her newer direction, the science course is a bit more critical.
So, I need a good text that she can use, with very good, detailed plans and tests (because I wouldn't know from beans whether she understood something or not). I need one that will be good for a potential science related field (yet understanding that the background she has gotten that she comprehends, all occured this year with her tutor). It should be solid, not a repeat of what we just did. I need a chemistry and chemistry lab for this summer (her choice not mine) and Anatomy and Physiology for next year. (Oh and we did do Prentice Hall Biology and I'm not sure how much she comprehended there cause I was the teacher and I think she mostly memorized to cope - which is why we got a tutor this year).
So far I only know of the Kolbe recommended sciences and Apologia. Is there anything out there for someone to recommend for a potential medical related field.
Janet
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Carole N.
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| Posted: May 07 2009 at 4:24pm | IP Logged
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Please don't feel that you are diverting the thread, Janet. While I live overseas, most of my books (and curriculum ideas) come from America. I am just as curious as to the best chemistry program for our family.
I need a program much like you are describing only I do not think that my ds will go into a scientific field. We are struggling with biology now. And I am not the best teacher, so I really want a program much as you describe.
Many of my friends use Apologia. That is what MODG uses and I am leaning toward that because I need the curriculum all planned out for me. I am not a science person although I do find it interesting.
I did check out the Singapore and it looks very intensive. I had additional questions about the program, but I am not certain that it gives me all I need to be able to successful teach this to my son.
So I am also waiting for suggestions. But it sounds like your dd may be further along in Chemistry than my ds.
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 Carole ... in Wales
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ALmom
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| Posted: May 07 2009 at 6:34pm | IP Logged
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Carole:
Thanks Carole, if this is relevant to the science discussion on the other thread, I'm game for it being moved.
My dd is doing well in the Kolbe physical science text - but only because we found a lovely homeschooling mom of 6 who had it on her heart to help my dd. May God bless her for the service she has rendered us in exchange for a little dishwashing and sweeping. If I had this mom for the duration of my dd high school science, she could become a science whiz. Reality is that this mom is about 20 weeks along and when the baby is born, she will rightfully need to focus in on her own family. She may offer a lab since she will be teaching her own son chemistry, but I know she will not know for certain until she has had a chance to get her feet wet caring for the new baby. I have to be prepared to do it on my own or find some other tutor for next year. The other problem is my dd who decided last year to take 5 years of high school to allow for greater depth of study - now wants to be done in 4. I sense that she is really getting to the stage of needing to get on with her life and move on from high school. I don't want to be in the position of dragging her high school out because we are bogging down in science.
I have used Apologia Biology with an older child - and we really disliked the chapter after chapter of theology posing as science. I said I would never use Apologia again and sold all my books. I have heard that MODG lesson plans skip those chapters and substitute other reading. But in any case this is not the science we are looking at right now. (We did Kolbe's Prentice Hall text with this second child - and I have some complaints with it as well. It was not nearly as well organized. It often felt like they were not trying to help you understand science but were doing their best to make things confusing and difficult by disorganized text, tons of detail, lots of exteranneous detail and never presenting a really good overview. The attitude seems to be to stuff your head full of vocabulary, and stuff - make sure you have tackled at least cursurly every single concept you may ever encounter with this subject - so, for instance, PH Physical science had two chapters on nuclear chemistry. Please.... what 8th or 9th grader really needs to tackle nuclear chemistry - maybe a few rare talents but not most. I want them to have a solid base so that if they become interested in something that requires nuclear chemistry, it won't be impossible for them to learn it with reasonable effort. Oh and the PH Biology also started out as if it was very open minded - then proceeded to assume things simply because - and most of the text seemed like an attempt to tell you all that had changed in the classification of animals (ie this critter is no longer considered this) and all the terminology like Clads and such of evolution without feeling any need to explain on what basis they were changing where these critters belonged. You were left hanging and felt like how dare you ask a question. I felt like we got more agenda than Biology (but more subtley than Apolgia and with a lot more science vocabulary). - not quite as blatant as Apologia, but it was still there. Or we got so much disconnected stuff at levels more like what a pre-med student might learn in college courses.
Of the Apologia texts we did use, it seems to me that the Chemistry was the most serious in terms of science. However, that being said, there were still some things like Oxidation/Reduction reactions that we simply could not remember how to explain and could not piece together with confidence from the teaching materials provided. I'm not sure it covered as much as your secular courses, but what it did cover seemed decent - but this is coming from someone who is not science minded and chemistry is the field neither my husband and I remember. I liked my high school chemistry course better, and I still have my book - but it is so old that I could not get a hold of a TM for it and without that I simply cannot use it - though I went to it from time to time for reference when I could not understand why we weren't getting a problem correct in Apologia.
My current assessment of secular science courses is that they try to cram into one course, every single thing you might have to do in a college level course and you are a unique person if you ever get a big picture. I need some good science advice here. I want to provide my dd with a solid foundation so that she can tackle whatever course she needs to take in college. I do not have a problem with my child being exposed to new material for the first time in college as long as the professors are not assuming this is already known. I do not expect her to clep out of basic science courses in college if she goes into a science field. I don't want her to get weeded out in her first course, either. I don't mind if she has to work hard - that is good for them and keeps them out of trouble  I see no point in giving her the same course at home that she will have as a freshman in college. I want her to have the foundation on which to build. At that time, she will have the advantage of learning from someone who hopefully loves the stuff - unlike her mama who just wants to somehow survive the high school science teaching that must be done. (I'm trying to get enthused - and I could, if I could understand the explanations).
Sorry about the rant. I'm really totally lost about what to do for science. I have a couple of e-mails out and if I hear back any suggestions or comments relevant to you guys, I'll be sure to post. I just don't know what to do about science and don't have enough knowledge myself to do it without a program or to really critique programs. I really need a science teacher in my house.
Right now I'm praying that my tutor has a suggestion for another tutor or some ideas. The two science tutors I've really liked and who have really helped my children - they just teach and don't seem to really rely on texts much at all other than as an outline.
I have one potential co-op class (an hours drive) for Anatomy and Physiology. I think they are using Apologia so here we go - but maybe with a real science teacher?
Dh just came in. I'm off to consult with him - and try to make the poor guy a decent dinner.
Edited to add: Oh the other nightmare of using a science text without a solid understanding of science yourself is how often you go around and around trying to understand something only to find out that you were correct in the first place - it was an error in the AK.
It would be great to have the support of somoene - Kolbe, Apolgia or something where phone calls are returned in a timely manner so you can definitevely resolve some of these things.
Please - if there is a science minded mom with time, please write a really good science text for high school sciences but assuming nothing in terms of previous knowledge - is that possible? It is easier to skip what you already know than to figure out what it is that you cannot figure out because you don't know something that you don't even know you are supposed to know and understand! I don't need business or lots of pictures - just real life connections, good explanations, and a systematic presentation!
Janet
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Carole N.
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| Posted: May 08 2009 at 3:45am | IP Logged
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Janet, I think that you and I are having pretty much the same feelings about science! In my situation, I am the only teacher available. So I have to find a program that I can guide them through hopefully without to much hassle.
I had heard much of what you said about Apologia. This is one reason I am hesitant to avoid it. I look at the Singapore and think that it is way to detailed for me to teach (still need an opinion from dh who is a chem engineer).
And my dc are not necessarily driven to study science. But maybe that is because of poor exposure?
We do have a friend who has degrees in science who is going to work on a set of books, but I am not certain when that will happen. It probably won't be next year.
Anyway, I can relate to all that you are going through and I am still looking for the *perfect* book as well.
ETA: I wrote that I was hesitant to avoid it. I think that I meant hesitant to purchase it! 
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Carole ... in Wales
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ALmom
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| Posted: May 08 2009 at 8:17pm | IP Logged
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Ok, here is some info I received. Hometrainingtools.com sells a microchem kit (with lab manual) for chemistry. It is correlated to the Apologia science and a much better lab than what is in Apologia itself. Those labs are mostly dumb. The kit is about $114. I'm thinking this might be a good thing. It came recommended by the chemist who teaches one of the co-ops here.
I e-mailed my science advisor and have spoken to my dd current science tutor plus the chemist who did the course in chemistry at that co-op this year. She uses Apolgia and while some explanations are not the way she'd do it, she felt it was a good course as long as you do different labs. Her main reason for using Apologia is that they do a better job communicating basic concepts using real life analogies and helping the children make connections where as the secular texts seem to lose most with the preponderance of excessive information and clutter. She did tell me that agendas are most prevalent in Physical Science, General Biology and Earth Science. I will say that the Apologia Chemistry seemed like straightforward science as far as it went when we used the older version long ago. At the time I used it they did not have 2 levels and more things are covered now. My daughter got through most of it on her own, with a little help from me looking back at my old high school chemistry book for help. There was only one area I couldn't help her with and we never got - even with dh trying to help. I have since learned we could have called the author and gotten help - so you at least have their help service.
In talking to the Kolbe advisor, Apologia doesn't cover quite as much but it looks like you can get a decent high school course by combining the levels and doing through chapter 8 in the second level. If we used Kolbe's PH chemistry we should be fine if we make it through test 5 in their plans. I will say that Kolbe does break down the text a lot for me and I wouldn't attempt PH without Kolbe. (In the physical science, even their honor students did not tackle nuclear chemistry so they are in agreement with me that that is certainly nutty). Kolbe plans provide for an honors track and a basic college prep track. Obviously we'd use the basic college prep track, but even that seemed optimistic so I asked for what was absolutely essential to do well in General Chemistry courses for a nursing major. We are not going to become chemical engineers or anything like that. Basically if we understand through test 5 in their program, we could reasonably expect our daughter to do fine if she suddenly decided to be a nurse or something requiring General Chemistry I and II in college. (Right now our daughter has no plans for college and wants to be a combat medic  . Of course she has actually done the unheard of and chased off 2 recruiters so far with all her questions. A prayer that she really, really discerns on this would be much appreciated. This is waaaay outside my comfort zone.)
I have currently ordered a used PH chemistry text from Kolbe (since I'm with them for EES). At $45 it was worth just getting it to look at knowing my chemistry guru 12 year old will probably eat it up. My sister is loaning me her Apologia level I text and I'm going to stop by a used curriculum store and see if I can pick up level II for less than $20. If I can, then I plan to sit down with my daughter and compare all 3. We'll share whatever we find in the process.
I am currently leaning towards ordering the Kolbe books (I already have the lesson plans with my enrollment) but I know for Anatomy and Physiology, we just signed up for the real teacher course and will live with Advanced Biology from Apologia with the assurance that the teacher supplements and it is not heavily agenda driven - at that level it is more science. I have ordered the Kolbe text to have on hand for our daughter to use as a reference for further research. She can dig into this as far as she is able and yet not have the stress of bogging down waiting for me to figure things out. Plus, while she is in the course, I'm sure the teacher would be willing to field related questions that come up from this textbook.
For her chemistry course, we are now leaning on using either Apolgia (going through to level II chapter 8) or the Kolbe PH text as the main text and the other as a supplement/reference. My idea is to read the simpler worded and more down to earth overview from Apologia and then do any work in the PH text that we feel needed but missing. (Since I have the Apologia to use free and the PH Chemistry only cost me $45, I don't mind too much. If I had to pay full price for both, I think I'd be nutty. Of course, if we look at the Ph chemistry and dd feels like she is capable of tackling it unmentored, then we will go for it and just do Kolbe and have my sis's book as easy reads when we need more down to earth explanations. I am still hoping against all odds that we can find a tutor - I actually plan to ask this co-op lady if she would be willing but I kind of doubt she'll have the time. I'm waiting until summer to ask since right now she knows how busy she is I also have a chemistry professor next door to me, but so far hasn't nibbled at any hints. I'm going to just ask if he has a chemistry student to recommend. Can you tell, I'm desperate, but someone else teaching science in our house has gone so much better - really it has. It is unbelievable to me how dd went from a science hater to it being her favorite subject - in half a year.
In order to do a lab, we'll just go ahead and order the microchem set. I'm not terribly concerned with the chemicals even though I have young children. My 12 yo has already done some scarey stuff just reading and creating things himself. This will be mom/dad controlled and much safer - just another perspective - but none of my littles have ever put anything in their mouth. It will be high and behind locked doors in storage so the 6 yo doesn't decide to try and do it on his own in imitation - but with all the complaining from big sis, I doubt he'll think it all that exciting. His brother's crazy stunts are much more entertaining with their big booms.
Janet
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Carole N.
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| Posted: May 11 2009 at 7:00am | IP Logged
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Janet, you have collected a lot of information here. The Kolbe curriculum sounds good, but we are not enrolled there. I have used MODG in the past, but I think that the plans there only go through the first Apologia book. Do you think that the advanced book is simple enough that someone could pick it up and do the lessons without a curriculum? I feel a bit out of my element here.
It is the policy of Home Science Tools to not ship overseas. I ordered supplies for them last summer for biology, had them delivered in the States, and was able to bring them on the plane. But I was not allowed to bring the chemical for the bug kill project (I had checked on this before hand). Since the microchem lab contains 22 different chemicals, it is a sure bet that I probably cannot have it shipped over here.
I am still considering the Singapore, but I am not certain that I can successful teach that. Erin highly recommends their curriculum, but I am not an engineer. While I have a great interest in science, I sort of bumble along in the teaching of it.  And I still need to find a few minutes of my dh's time to have him check out the curriculum.
I am not concerned about having chemicals in the home. My youngest will be 14 in August. And let's face it, we have all sorts of chemicals stored around the house for garden and laundry purposes. We have just taught our children to exercise care when using chemicals. I will have to check out how to go about acquiring the necessary supplies.
But thank you for all the information that you have discovered. It has helped.
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Carole ... in Wales
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Lauri B
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| Posted: May 11 2009 at 8:49am | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
| In talking to the Kolbe advisor, Apologia doesn't cover quite as much but it looks like you can get a decent high school course by combining the levels and doing through chapter 8 in the second level. If we used Kolbe's PH chemistry we should be fine if we make it through test 5 in their plans. |
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Wow, Janet! Thank you for sharing all this information. What chapter in the PH Chemistry is at the Test 5 level? I see (from Amazon) that PH Chemistry has 26 chapters, and I wondered how far into those 26 chapters would it be necessary to go?
Thanks!
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Tonya
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| Posted: May 11 2009 at 12:10pm | IP Logged
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While I agree that theology presented in Apologia gets very old, we have found the presentation in all of there books to be very clear. Both my daughter and son used the first book of Apologia chemistry. My son went on to take an AP Chemistry class online and when he was confused with the explanations that he received both in his college level book and online, he would resort the the Apologia Chemistry (the second book) for a clearer explanation. He scored a 5 on the AP exam which is as high as you can score. My kids have also used the Physical science, biology and physics from Apologia. Like I said before, though, the "creationist only" view from a Protestant standpoint gets very old.
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Tonya
Mom to 2 daughters (24 and 21), 4 sons (19, 15, 12, 12), and 3 in heaven
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4Real Forums : Exploring God's Creation in Nature and Science
Topic: Chemistry and Anatomy and Phys.
