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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Dec 26 2008 at 11:21pm | IP Logged
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First I was coming here for a suggestion. Ds is tired of the liturgical year. He "knows" it all. He gets it. He needs some "deep" stuff. He is tired of the spiraling Faith and Life(which I love). He knows most of the Baltimore Catechism. He is bored. He is 11. Amy Welborn's books seem a little too mature for him. He also has many questions--he wants to get "faith" but is questioning a lot. "Why are there no miracles now?" "It has been 2000 years, we have lost a lot from Jesus' time. We need God to send a reminder", "Why don't angels talk in people's dreams now?" HELP me!! Any ideas as to what to do with him--besides have him write it all down and make an appointment with a priest?
In addition to his questions, I have dh who wonders how a father of a baby can baptize her before she is transferred to another hospital. The family called the priest and he refused to baptize her again because the dad did it correctly. Why couldn't the baby be baptized again? It isn't going to hurt her.
I am feeling woefully inadequate lately.  Thanks for any help you can provide.
Anne
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Bookswithtea
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He sounds like my ds. He needed his faith to be grounded not only in the Church traditions but it had to feel practical and alive as well. Actually, its not just faith, its everything he does. Very kinesthetic and a pragmatic thinker.
Honestly, I think Amy Welborn is a good option. 11 is when I started my ds on Welborn (prove it: prayer). Maybe preread first, but these sorts of questions are the kinds that she deals with, in a very youthful, simple way. Also, I would put some stories before his eyes of current miracles. They are still happening. God just doesn't let us see them all the time because we walk by faith, not by sight. Maybe look into some missionary mags that tell stories of things going on on the mission field (Lay Witness??? never read it but its the only one I know of). And some modern saint stories (20th century). But maybe bypass the Vision Books version for something written a bit better. I'm thinking maybe you could read aloud from something written for adults and edit on the fly if necessary??? Maybe Louis de Wohl (these are rough in spots but incredibly inspiring...definitely read aloud and edit because of his age--MODG uses some of these in the 8th grade).
Also, maybe drop the F and L for the rest of the year. If he's a good reader, let him wrestle with these questions with God and good materials. Teach him how to journal and encourage him to have a quiet time every day instead of F and L. I wouldn't make his journal "schoolwork" though. Let it be his conversation with God. Other books I'd consier might be A Philadelphia Catholic in St. James Court and Priest on Horseback. It sounds like he needs more inspiring stories, both fiction and non fiction.
Just .02, but hope it helps some...
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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allegiance_mom
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About a second baptism....
Baptism done licitly leaves an indelible mark on one's soul. That mark cannot be put there twice. That is why a person can never receive the sacrament twice.
Anyone may baptize a baby in danger of death (and should). The person performing the baptism need not even be a Christian, as long as they intend to confer Christian baptism. Both of my deliveries were dicey, and both times I made sure my husband knew to have the baby baptized if needed. Once the neo-natal transport people were even in the delivery room with me! There was no way my baby was being transported without baptism. But he didn't need to go after all, thank God.
I believe it was St. Patrick who converted two girls to the Faith. They were imprisoned before they could be baptized. The night before their executions they baptized one another with their drinking water. Even though the first girl was not a Christian.
I had a cousin very ill at birth who was baptized at the hospital. He did eventually have a church ceremony with the white robe and candle and all, but not a new baptism. More of a welcome into the faith.
Hope this helps. If your dh has further questions about this, have him check the catechism section on the sacraments.
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Red Cardigan
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One more thing on an emergency baptism:
Parents should request that their pastor "supply the ceremonies," following an emergency baptism, which is when the additional prayers of baptism may be read, godparents recorded, etc. If there is any doubt about the emergency baptism, of course, the priest may use a conditional baptism (He says, "N., if you are not already baptized, I baptize you...etc.").
The "supplying the ceremonies" aspect helps to make sure the sacrament is recorded and also provides the moment for the baby to be welcomed into the parish community, even if he/she is already baptized.
There is, in the Roman Ritual book, a "Rite for supplying of ceremonies omitted in baptism," which goes through this particular rite. It is supposed to be done any time an emergency baptism has taken place; it is also often done when an adult converts to the Catholic Church and has been licitly baptized in his/her previous Christian denomination.
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JennGM
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Anne,
I've been giving your posts some thoughts, but haven't come up with concrete answers yet. I have some ideas, but I need to be home to pull them out and formulate an answer. I was wondering, does your son like to read? About what is his reading level?
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JennGM
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| Posted: Dec 27 2008 at 2:52pm | IP Logged
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mom2mpr wrote:
| First I was coming here for a suggestion. Ds is tired of the liturgical year. He "knows" it all. He gets it. He needs some "deep" stuff. He is tired of the spiraling Faith and Life(which I love). He knows most of the Baltimore Catechism. He is bored. He is 11. |
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Back again. I see you are using F&L. Can you describe "liturgical year" presentation in your house? what aspects is he tired of? Truly, the liturgical year just gets deeper, and brings us closer to the liturgy. It's not just for kids, but the presentation works well to begin teaching the kids to live the life of the Church. But perhaps the presentation needs to be deeper. I'm wondering if apologetics and deeper study of the Church's rich Liturgy is the approach to take. Just thinking out loud, as that phrase "he is tired of the liturgical year" just leaps out and is nagging me. 
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Dec 27 2008 at 7:11pm | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
mom2mpr wrote:
| First I was coming here for a suggestion. Ds is tired of the liturgical year. He "knows" it all. He gets it. He needs some "deep" stuff. He is tired of the spiraling Faith and Life(which I love). He knows most of the Baltimore Catechism. He is bored. He is 11. |
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Back again. I see you are using F&L. Can you describe "liturgical year" presentation in your house? what aspects is he tired of? Truly, the liturgical year just gets deeper, and brings us closer to the liturgy. It's not just for kids, but the presentation works well to begin teaching the kids to live the life of the Church. But perhaps the presentation needs to be deeper. I'm wondering if apologetics and deeper study of the Church's rich Liturgy is the approach to take. Just thinking out loud, as that phrase "he is tired of the liturgical year" just leaps out and is nagging me. |
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He loves to read--if he likes the subject. He loves Redwall and can read at a pretty high level. I think he Iowa tested somewhere around 11th grade. I just worry about him missing his childhood if he gets into the older kid stuff--if you kwim. He in some ways can be immature. He has been bored with all the reading we try to do in our day. I do a lot of hand holding and reading aloud. And that is how I present most stuff. I do plan on continuing my CGS presentations in January--those seemed to bore him too.
The liturgical year-we mostly follow it from the church readings. It nags me, too. For example, we went to the kids mass for Christmas and my parents were here and thought the priest did a marvelous job encouraging the kids to give Jesus a present and to love him, etc. They asked M what he thought and he says, in that 11 year old bored tone  ,"but I know that."
I need to know HOW to get deeper into the liturgical year. I thought of apologetics and that is where Amy Welborn came into my thoughts. But going through her books I find it seems to be for older kids-high school. And some of the attitudes she mentions, well, M doesn't know yet. And I don't want to encourage them. Help me understand how to make our rich liturgy alive for him. How to get deep and inspire him. What kind of discussions to have. One has to remember I am learning to I really would love to find him a spiritual advisor to help nurture and teach him. I think this is beyond me!
I hope that helps. I appreciate your time and suggestions everyone.
Anne
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DianaC
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Have you seen Matthew Pinto's books? My son enjoyed reading "Did Adam & Eve Have Bellybuttons?" with our youth group. There is a second book by Pinto named "Did Jesus have a Last Name?".
I think that these books showed the children that they were all asking the same questions and it brought them peace.
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guitarnan
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What about some compelling saint biographies, particularly of modern saints and blesseds? My son was fascinated by Padre Pio's life - especially because he bilocated, etc. during WWII. (My son loves all things military!)
I can empathize with your son, re: F&L, because my dd (almost 11) feels the same way. We got Ignatius Press' 6th grade religion book (on the Old Testament) after finishing F&L 6 in about 3 months, and it's challenging her to think about what each important Bible story means, and to look up scripture passages for herself.
It seems to me that what he needs is to feel connected. Connected to liturgy, to the universal Church, to the importance of studying these things. For me, that connection came through saints. The Magesterium and Bible study came later (thank you, Tim O'Donnell!). My daughter, on the other hand, loves Bible stories but has never felt empathy with saints...except for her devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe.
That's why I think modern saints (who saw angels and participated in God's miracles and were doctors and hikers and priests and parents) might inspire your son to look at things another way. It's very clear that he sees God's message and plan for His Church.
I believe, at this age (pre-hormonal, but just barely), our young people are able to see truths very clearly, and they need their insights to be validated. My daughter is very direct about her thoughts, everything from wanting to be an altar server so she pays better attention at Mass (!) to seeing the evils of abortion. What she needs is validation of those insights and a firm grounding in the basis and precepts of the Faith, so later on she can explain why she believes.
My suggestion would be to try a couple of different approaches (Amy Welborn's books, Church history, saints, Bible study, whatever), borrowed if possible, and let him tell you what resonates with him. If he knows most of the Baltimore Catechism, that's excellent. There's time to explore, time to find out what appeals to him. When it's time to prepare for Confirmation, he'll revisit all those basics and reinforce them. This is a good time to find out what strikes a chord in his soul.
Prayers forthcoming...
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JodieLyn
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Have you tried the Friendly Defenders cards?
They can put things into a "if a person asks or says this.." what is your answer.. appologetics but for kids.
I've even used them with fairly young kids.. reading them together more than asking and answering.. just so that the younger kids can hear that there is an answer.. I figure that they can know there's an answer even if they don't know the answer well themselves.
And as far as the liturgical year.. what about having him implementing stuff rather than hearing about it. Ask him to help plan things to celebrate in the home what's happening at church. Give him a budget so that you don't have to veto grandios plans all the time.
If he knows it so well then maybe he needs to be involved in making it alive rather than just read about?
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mom2mpr
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Thank you everyone. I bought the Adam and Eve book. I think I'll pick a question a week and we'll discuss and look up the references.
I love the idea of having him help celebrate the liturgical year and plan. I'll give him the calendar section from Faith and Family and let him decide what days to celebrate and how. That should be fun--and take some pressure off me
Anne
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jennthmg
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My Dd got seriously bored with F&L starting in 5th grade. In 6th, I bought IOG's 7th grade book for her and she liked it really well. By the time we got to 7th grade, the 8th grade book lost it's appeal and was boring to her. We'd already covered Great Adventure in history and her knowledge base made everything at her grade level review. I bought just the text portion of Scott Hahn's high school religion program. I'd heard the first book, Didache Series Introduction to Catholicism was a pretty easy read but reasonably deep. I thought we'd spend up to 2 years going through this (if needed) and really disect the information. It's been GREAT!
Overall, I've found many middle school books were a review of everything she already learned in elementary and we've chosen to gingerly use simple high school books at a slower rate with me very involved in the texts with her.
I agree about the liturgical year getting deeper the more time you spend in it -- this year exploring the O Antiphons was so meaningful after several years of doing the Jesse Tree. There's just so much meat there, I can't imagine getting to the end of it. One of the joys of being Catholic! (but I can imagine a pre-teen feeling bored with their perception of it.) That was a GREAT solution to include him in the planning of it!
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saigemom
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Not to sound dumb, but what is F&L? I have a ds that sounds VERY much like yours and so it is good to know what to avoid as well as what to look for.
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Michaela
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mom2mpr wrote:
| "Why are there no miracles now?" |
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Anne,
After hearing the reports of the plane crash in the Hudson River today, with all 155 passengers and crew on board surviving....I thought of your post. 
No doubts, this is absolutely a miracle.
Praising God!
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Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
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mom2mpr
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Funny, Michaela, I was just reading the news on Yahoo and thought the same thing. Thanks for thinking of this and posting.
Anne
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: A few ?'s--yet again :)
