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melanie
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| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 11:11am | IP Logged
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I don't care that the boy is 4 and has never pooped in the potty. I really don't. I know he will do it *someday*...before he turns 18. But he keeps going through these stages of...leaving it.  I thought we were done with that. He quit doing that for a while and started just asking for a diaper to go in. I let it go, because whenever we would lean on him to use the toilet he would get upset. But now he's started leaving it again. He will just go in his pants, and then strip and leave it for me to find, and until I find it he is leaving train tracks all over the place. I could just scream. WHY won't he go in the toilet???I have SO had enough of this!!! I don't know what to do, he is really immature and doesn't seem to "get" any kind of bribery/reward system. I'm so tired of rinsing out gross 4yo poopy pants, . He stays dry...even overnight he usually stays dry.
Anyway,,,thanks for the vent...
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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Lara Sauer
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| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 11:57am | IP Logged
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I would recommend you use the methods taught in Toilet Training in Less than a Day by Drs. Fox and Ahren. You can find this book in most libraries. The doctors were originally trying to find a way to toilet train severely mentally retarded adults. After success in that area, they moved to retarded children and from there to healthy children.
We affectionately refer to it as "potty-training boot camp!" The child teaches a dolly how to go to the bathroom and employs salty snacks and flavorful drinks as a way for the child to have plenty of opportunities to need to use the toilet. For your purpose, the "practice" sessons would be of great benefit.
However, the gist of the training is to get the child to be responsible for taking himself to the toilet...and if they have an accident, the child is the one who needs to be cleaning up after himself.
That would mean your son would be the one rinsing the "gross poopy pants" out in the toilet, and not you! (Of course you would be there to supervise and after he is gone and not watching, complete the clean up.) He would also be responsible for "cleaning up" any tracks/puddles that he left anywhere, scrubbing rubs and floors...carrying any soiled linens to the washing machine.
The whole point of the book is for him to own responsibility of his own actions. I have successfully used this method to train 6 of my 8 children and I would never use anything else.
Also, as an aside, when my child soils his underwear, he is given a "cold" bath (I place said child in the tub and rinse down their back side with soap under running tap water.) I don't raise my voice or express any feeling other than a bit of disappointment and I simply tell them they will be getting a cold bath to clean up their mess. I have found this to be an excellent deterrent, as it is somewhat unpleasant. The water should be at least cold enough to cause an "Ooh, that's cold" sensation. It doesn't need to be freezing.
Good luck!
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melanie
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| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 12:38pm | IP Logged
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You know what? I think I may have that book around here...is it sad that I don't know what books I own? 
I know I bought a little book on potty training back when we first tried with him, I think it was this one..whatever it was, I read it and dismissed it as unnecessary at that point. I'm a pretty easy going potty trainer. But of course...I didn't know I'd still be sitting here trying to do this TWO YEARS later, ha! Anyway,,,feeling more desperate...I'll dig around and see if I have it!
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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Lara Sauer
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| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 12:47pm | IP Logged
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The reason that I really like the book is that it gives me recourse to a method that will keep me calm (relatively!!) when I would rather be screaming, "GROSS!!!"
You will be in my prayers!
Peace to your day.
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CJ of WV
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| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 1:02pm | IP Logged
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Melanie,
I am not sure this will help your situation, but I wanted to share what my son has gone through for many years. He is now 7 1/2, and has no problems, but it was a very rough road for many years.
He potty-trained wetting in the toilet by three years old, but could not get the poop part down at all. He was in pull-ups off and on until he was five and no longer fit in them. He would go through periods of no messing and wearing undies, to soiling several times a day. This problem was effecting his desire to go places, visit people, even staying at grandma's. At that point I knew something was wrong.
I brought him to a pediatric gastroenterologist as a last ditch desperate effort and their diagnosis was Encopresis, fecal soiling due to chronic constipation. He was so impacted that his rectal muscles could no longer function properly and could not sense the urge to go, and the bowel movements he was having were just being 'pushed' out by the fecal matter building up behind it. He literally had NO control to go or hold it in. The x-rays confirmed the diagnosis.
He had a complete system cleansing with enemas, magnesium citrate drinks, and then a daily regiment of a laxative/stool softener. Each day he had to do toilet-sitting for 10 minutes each morning, noon, and evening to retrain his bowels to empty at set times. He had this therapy regiment for well over a year, and we had to do the total cleansing at least twice because he got backed up again.
If I had any advice to myself after this experience, it would be to not wait so long before seeking the advice of a professional. I think it would have been better to get advice earlier, even if it ruled out a physical problem, then to have let the problem persist to the point of being an emotional and pyschological issue for my son.
I assumed it was imaturity, uncooperativeness, and a control issue. My response flipped between "be patient, he'll do it when he's ready", and "enough is enough!". No amount of punishments, bribery or rewards did or would have helped my son because he physically could NOT control his bowel movements.
My prayers are with you and your son. May St. Raphael give you guidance in resolving this issue.
God Bless,
Cecilia
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melanie
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| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 1:53pm | IP Logged
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Wow, Cecilia, what an ordeal!!
Well, good to think about. He has a well child visit scheduled already in January, so I'll be sure to talk to the doctor about all of this..
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 6:40pm | IP Logged
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Cecilia brings up a good point. Are you keeping track of how often he goes? I know that in the hustle and bustle of dealing with more than one child it can be easy to lose track of it, especially if they are urine-trained.
When my daughter was four, she would hold it in for 3, 4, 5 days. When she finally could hold it in no longer she would sometimes scream in pain (she's also rather dramatic) and often go in her panties (often in the middle of the night). So it is possible that your son is holding it in for two or three days to where it may/may not be slightly painful, but he can't control when it comes out.
I ended up getting a roll of stickers and putting one on the calendar for each day that she pooped. It was a reward for her and helped me keep track of how long between movements. If she went more than two days without going than she received a suppository in the evening of day three.
I also looked for signs of holding it in. Like she would suddenly stop playing and sit or lie down on the couch. I would make her go sit on the potty immediately, and help her by spreading her legs to relax the sphincter. If she still didn't go I would have her sit on a hard chair, or take her for a walk (it's hard to hold it in doing either of those things). Of course, I was less concerned with her going on the potty and more concerned about getting her to go at all. But they did seem to go hand in hand.
Good luck!!
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Mary Chris
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| Posted: Dec 18 2008 at 9:09am | IP Logged
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Our experience was similar to Barbara's. My middle son gave me the most trouble with it. For him we did a lot of warm baths and nice long walks to get things moving.
I do recommend seeing the doctor. A laxative will be helpful in re-training him. Sometimes the child is scared to poop because they know it is going to hurt. With my dd they gave us a prescription lax that was wonderful, we just put it in her juice.
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melanie
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| Posted: Dec 18 2008 at 1:22pm | IP Logged
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Thanks all..
He does go every day, just not in the toilet. I know from experience with my oldest daughter, though, that just because things are moving doesn't mean they are moving enough...she has problems with chronic constipation, always has, and she will often have a BM but have horrible abdominal pain, and an xray will show that she is blocked higher up.
Isn't this a lovely conversation though? 
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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sarahb
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| Posted: Dec 19 2008 at 7:51am | IP Logged
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This is called encopresis. You should speak to your ped! Prayers for you as it can be so frustrating for mom!!
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: 4 year old who won't potty train
