| Author | |
LucyP
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 05 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 791
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 4:05am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Ladies, I am confused and pondering. What do you think the correct attitude to our clergy should be? I am finding that many commens revealing attitudes of superiority, judgement, sarcasm etc come from the lips and keyboard of those known to me (including myself, I hasten to add). It just doesn't sit well with me, and I find myself wondering - unless a Bishop/priest - is directly sinning, should I defend them, make a comment, etc. I just wonder if, in trying to make clergy more traditional or whatever to defend our children and the faith, we are in fact weakening the faith and our children by showing an attitude of disrespect and disobedience.
I really want to talk to a priest about this but feel they are too busy. A couple of times I have felt very uncomfortable around certain groups and individuals because of the attitude that the NO is wrong (not just not what they like for their family, but a hideous blasphemous sin) and that Bishops are just silly little men who lack the faith needed.
What do yu think? I suppose I feel maybe praying for the clergy on a daily basis seems a better choice to me, but I am wondering if I am wrong and we should be more militant?
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
sarahb
Forum Pro
Joined: April 27 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 182
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 7:53am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I see a lot of this online but not IRL, probably because I dont know any other catholic homeschoolers in my area.
I see so much disrespect towards local parish churches online that Im sort of appalled by it. Holier than thou is the term that comes to mind. Only instead of just holier than fellow catholics, its holier than priests.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn UK
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 924
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 8:07am | IP Logged
|
|
|
St. Francis of Assisi had enormous respect for all priests by virtue of their office, and regardless of their personal holiness or otherwise ... I found this quote from an article on St. Francis here.
Quote:
| St. Francis had great reverence for all priests as "other Christs". There is the story of a town whose populace were scandalized in their parish priest. St. Francis, upon being asked to intervene for the town with the offending priest, went to the town. He immediately approached the priest, knelt down and kissed the priest's hands - not only giving a good example to the townspeople but also reminding the priest of his ordination and the sacred work those hands were to perform. How much better to pray and give respect to priests than to criticize and spread gossip about them!! |
|
|
... and this quote from St.Francis himself:
Quote:
| "I am determined to reverence, love and honour priests as my superiors ... I refuse to consider their sins ... I do this because, in this world, I cannot see the Most High God with my own eyes, except for his Most Holy Body and Blood which they receive and they alone administer to others" |
|
|
To believe that the NO Mass is a "hideous, blasphemous sin" is heresy.
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael,  Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 8:18am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Great response, Kathryn.
In all things, charity. So we have charity towards our clergy, but also to the people who think this way.
It's hard to hear it. If I were in the situation, I would try to come up with a way to say something that doesn't point fingers at the person, just something you're trying to do. Even "I'm not comfortable with this kind of talk when referring to "Other Christs" or "We're trying to not criticize our clergy in our family, so I'd prefer to not engage in this conversation."
I haven't had my caffeine, so I'm not coming up with anything (besides, I have foot-in-mouth disease, so I am not one to come up with eloquency and diplomacy).
But I'm just saying it's better to approach discussions in a nonconfrontational way; don't get into a debate. This is definitely a hot button topic that people feel very strongly about. It doesn't mean they are correct, but it can get very heated. Personal witness and Prayer will the most effective.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
sarahb
Forum Pro
Joined: April 27 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 182
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 8:30am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Its also very hard to agree with St Francis about "refusing to consider their sins" when some of our our priests have committed heinous sins against our precious children in the the recent past.
Its a fine line. We must respect the clergy without ignoring their propensity to human failure.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
happymama
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 05 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 410
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 9:39am | IP Logged
|
|
|
"I am wondering if I am wrong and we should be more militant?"
Personally I think, for our part, we need to just love, respect, and take care of our own parish priests as best we can. Ignore or stifle any negative gossip or talking about him. Just love him as your spiritual head and your brother in Christ. Smile at him, invite him over for dinner, ask his advice on things.
It's a personal issue for me because my brother is a priest. He was "taken" from our family, you could say, and given to the Church. When I miss him, I pray that his parishioners are taking good care of him and welcoming him into their families.
What if my life was on a stage, there for anyone else to pick apart and gossip about? How awful that we think we can do that to our priests. Humility demands that we submit ourselves to Christ, and one of the most common ways to do this is to listen to the words of the homily as if Christ Himself was speaking to us. I believe there is always something to be learned in a homily, no matter how lacking in intellectual or speaking gifts the priest is. God wants to speak to us, and the common way for Him to do this is through our priests and our husbands.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ladybugs
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3732
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 10:13am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I remember hearing Father Corapi mention a story about his mother and a woman who was bad-mouthing priests. His mother told her to, "Watch her tongue. My son is a priest."
Later, the woman who had spoken negatively was diagnosed with cancer of the mouth. Father Corapi said half her face was eaten away with this cancer and that he wondered if there was a parallel between the speaking negatively and the cancer's effects.
I think we need to remember that our priests are human, and pray for them daily...I know how much persecution I get daily by just being out with kids....imagine what they must endure....
There's this prayer:
Keep them, I pray Thee, dearest Lord,
keep them, for they are Thine -
Thy priests whose lives burn out
before Thy consecrated shrine.
Keep them, for they are in the world,
though from the world apart;
when earthly pleasures tempt, allure -
shelter them in Thy heart.
Keep them, and comfort them
in hours of loneliness and pain,
when all their lives of sacrifice
for souls seems but in van.
Keep them, and O remember, Lord,
they have no one but Thee,
yet they have only human hearts,
with human frailty.
Keep them as spotless as the Host,
that daily they caress;
their every thoughts and word and deed,
Deign, dearest Lord, to bless.
Our Father...
Hail Mary...
Glory Be...
(Imprimatur: D. Cardinal Dougherty, Philadelphia.)
__________________
Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 10:16am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think we need to remember to view the St. Francis quote in terms of the original question here which is in regard to the attitudes toward priests and their failings or perceived failings in more general terms. Yes, there have been heinous crimes committed by some priests - that is not what is being addressed here.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
sarahb
Forum Pro
Joined: April 27 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 182
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 10:47am | IP Logged
|
|
|
MaryM wrote:
| I think we need to remember to view the St. Francis quote in terms of the original question here which is in regard to the attitudes toward priests and their failings or perceived failings in more general terms. Yes, there have been heinous crimes committed by some priests - that is not what is being addressed here. |
|
|
I think its all relevant to the topic, respectfully.
It seems we let some very important things slide sometimes while we quibble over the minutiae.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 11:43am | IP Logged
|
|
|
sarahb wrote:
| I see a lot of this online but not IRL, probably because I dont know any other catholic homeschoolers in my area. |
|
|
I'd have to agree with Sarah on this. I see it an awful lot online - sometimes I am utterly shocked by ferocity of it in such unexpected venues - but as our current homeschool group is secular, it is not an issue that we are dealing with IRL.
I DO think you are right, it shows an total lack of respect, and it makes me very uncomfortable too.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 11:46am | IP Logged
|
|
|
LucyP wrote:
Ladies, I am confused and pondering. What do you think the correct attitude to our clergy should be? I am finding that many commens revealing attitudes of superiority, judgement, sarcasm etc come from the lips and keyboard of those known to me (including myself, I hasten to add). It just doesn't sit well with me, and I find myself wondering - unless a Bishop/priest - is directly sinning, should I defend them, make a comment, etc. I just wonder if, in trying to make clergy more traditional or whatever to defend our children and the faith, we are in fact weakening the faith and our children by showing an attitude of disrespect and disobedience.
I really want to talk to a priest about this but feel they are too busy. A couple of times I have felt very uncomfortable around certain groups and individuals because of the attitude that the NO is wrong (not just not what they like for their family, but a hideous blasphemous sin) and that Bishops are just silly little men who lack the faith needed.
What do yu think? I suppose I feel maybe praying for the clergy on a daily basis seems a better choice to me, but I am wondering if I am wrong and we should be more militant? |
|
|
I think that even though an individual may have a failing, we should be extremely careful not to paint ALL of any category of people as if they have that same failing. It's insulting.
The "position" of priest and/or bishop demands respect regardless of the individual in it.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ladybugs
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3732
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 12:41pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
sarahb wrote:
MaryM wrote:
| I think we need to remember to view the St. Francis quote in terms of the original question here which is in regard to the attitudes toward priests and their failings or perceived failings in more general terms. Yes, there have been heinous crimes committed by some priests - that is not what is being addressed here. |
|
|
I think its all relevant to the topic, respectfully.
It seems we let some very important things slide sometimes while we quibble over the minutiae. |
|
|
No one is letting anything slide.
If you recall, it was a small number of priests who committed the heinous crimes of which you refer.
In this thread, we're talking about the position of priest and the need for humility in following Church teaching.
__________________
Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 1:00pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
It is a difficult situation. I usually respond to the criticism in the way I hope I respond to criticism of anyone which is trying to be objective, see the other side--with charity.
I must say that one of the biggest reasons I changed parishes and started attending the TLM was because I felt that in order to correct liturgical abuses to my children, I would have to be critical of the priest allowing or engaging in them.
However, priests do say things that are incorrect or do things that are incorrect, and it seems one can express such an opinion or correction without personally attacking an individual priest.
I try to defend in the course of the conversation with statements like, "It saddens me that seminaries were in such poor shape during the time so many of our priests were formed. I think their heart is in the right place, but I hate that they were not taught these truths."
Also, I think it is important to remember our Church history and put things in perspective. If virtue were the only reason a person deserved our respect, I'm not sure that many people would be worthy! When Henry VIII created the church of England, how many priests were willing to stand by Rome? Not many. Wasn't it something like 2? Priests have always been as painfully human as the rest of us.
The issue of people questioning the validity of the NO is kind of a separate issue. While both types of criticisms tend to come from the same lips and make one uncomfortable, I'm not sure that it is quite the same thing.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Angie Mc
Board Moderator
Joined: Jan 31 2005
Location: Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11400
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 1:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Good to see you, Laura. I missed you while you were away  .
Lucy, you have two concerns here. One is how you and your family should treat priests. Another is how you should interact with those who feel the NO is wrong and/or speak ill of priests. Is that right?
Defend the Faith with Gentleness parallels a principle of management that I was taught in grad school, "Be gentle with the people. Be tough on the topic." Other ways of looking at this is to separate personality from principles, or workers from organizations. It truly is hard work to do both at the same time! When I feel squeezed to choose between the two, I always want to choose (although I'm sure that I fail miserably often when I get all caught up in my passion for a topic) to be gentle with the people first, which includes both priests and people who are struggling with honest concerns as well as those who may be less well intentioned. I work to keep the emotions of others as well as my own emotions at bay, like hurt, shock, disgust, enragement, reserving my emotions for respect and love for others. At least, that's my plan.
So, this is my long winded way of saying that I choose to show respect for my priests by praying for them, getting to know them, discussing with them in private any of my concerns about them or the parish, and *never* engaging in disrespectful talk about them. If I ever feel that I am not being heard by my priest or that he may be involved in unethical or illegal activity, I must follow the chain of right authority to my Bishop and beyond if necessary.
I attend a NO mass and am a big fan of the right authority of our Church  . I will discuss topics of concern that can be associated with the NO mass and I enjoy discussing how to discern a valid mass from a mass that isn't valid. The vast majority of NO masses are valid and we're most often discussing preferences and questions about style and conformity. I will not speak disrespectfully of a priest or parishoners or make assumptions about their motives, etc. At least, that's my plan.
Now...to pray to the Holy Spirit for implementation of my plan!
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LucyP
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 05 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 791
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 2:05pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Ladies, thank you :o)
In my protestant past  we had to have some negative attitudes towards the ministers we were under as we came to see that sadly about half were totally wrong and "mad". But I want to help our children love our priests. I know what SarahB means about the serious sins - obviously I wouldn't be blind to those (and have had a conversation with my son about adults in general and safe touch) but smaller "sins" or differences of opinion or emphasis are more what I was talking of. Or people who just overall come across as having a negative attitude to anyone ordained unless they are in complete agreement with them.
My dh did not convert when I did, although he says he will. One of the stumbling blocks to him is the division in the Church, which he had hoped we could escape all the division within protestantism, and come to a "family" - he has spoken of one lady he met and who started ripping apart one Bishop to us within five minutes of meeting us - just acting as if, compared to her, he was a silly little boy. I know I need to stop talking about division and disunity with dh, which is hard as he is my best friend, but it just makes him so sad and angry.
I love the idea of "helping" our clergy and supporting them and showing friendliness to them. I just don't know how. I don't want to seem "pushy" or demanding, and I know their tme is so limited. But it would be great for the children to get to know priests as real people, and for my husband too. How do you know how friendly to be - whether a priest enjoys socialising etc? I am so socially inept and our level of entertaining is not elevated - even our family prefer to avoid it! We attend a Cathedral parish with several priests (who are very busy and/or semi-retired or sick) and there are so many people who would be better at "helping" in various ways or who need their attention more and so we just smile at them and say many prayers for them, but that feels so weak.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Lisbet
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2006
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2706
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 2:29pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lucy,
Please do not worry about being 'pushy' or demanding. Yes, priests are indeed busy, but they long for friendship and compainionship just like the rest of us. You never know, a nice homecooked dinner with a warm family may be just what your priest has been praying for! :) Or take some Christmas cookies, a homemade loaf of bread, or what have you.
Once I got over my 'fear' of less than perfect entertaining and we began having religious over regularly, we have been so blessed by the friendships we have formed with many over the years. Our children have been blessed and inspired, and heck, if nothing else, I think they oftentimes leave here and and pray in thanksgiving for their vow of celebacy!!!!! 
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 2:45pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lisbet wrote:
| Our children have been blessed and inspired, and heck, if nothing else, I think they oftentimes leave here and and pray in thanksgiving for their vow of celebacy!!!!! |
|
|
Lucy, I feel the same way you do, just totally not sure how to go about this. Plus, the cultural differences, our current priest is from Nigeria.. the last one from Poland. Even at church at coffee hour or such.. the conversation pretty much dies after a "hi, how are you" 
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Lisbet
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2006
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2706
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 2:51pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh Jodie, the foreign priest are the most interesting!! Seriously - start by asking him something about his culture!
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
doris
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1103
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 5:15pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lucy, you'd be surprised. At our last parish, we rather shyly invited the pp round for supper and asked when he was available, expecting that he'd have lots of social engagements with other parishioners. It turned out that he hadn't been invited to anyone's house for over a year 
We got to know him and he became a dear friend.
In our London parish, it's a different matter, since it's a huge parish (and an abbey) with lots of priests. Still, what we did was to ask a priest to come and bless our new home and invite him to stay for supper. We haven't repeated the invitation but it was at least a way to begin to get to know the priests of our new church.
__________________
Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Michaela
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2052
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 5:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
doris wrote:
| asked when he was available, expecting that he'd have lots of social engagements with other parishioners. It turned out that he hadn't been invited to anyone's house for over a year |
|
|
I shouldn't have read that.
There are a couple of posts from me on the boards about getting up the nerve to invite our parish priest over. I feel like I'm supposed to, more than just social etiquette, but I have felt led by Our Lord.
The holidays are the worst because I try so hard to convince myself that Father has been invited to someone's home...he is NOT alone especially on Thanksgiving or Christmas.
DH and I are quiet people. Making up stuff to talk about makes me nervous. Imagining the awkward silence when there is nothing to talk about really makes me nervous.
__________________
Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: attitude to bishops/authority/NO Mass
