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Michaela
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What's the difference between being helpful vs. being a doormat?
Is there ever a time that you should stop giving when you have it to give? (not just money, but time or emotions or anything) When is enough, enough? or is it ever?
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Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
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JodieLyn
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I think you also have to consider it in terms of the other person, so not just "am I helpful or a doormat" but "am I helping or hurting them"
Like if help is preventing someone from being able/willing to help themselves.. perhaps it's not really help anymore.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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organiclilac
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I wish I knew. We just had a friend ask us to pay his family's power bill, and he would pay us back. (We'll see if we get the money today - we were supposed to yesterday.) We thought that maybe they were just trying to avoid a late fee, but when dh called to pay, the machine said the bill was over $800 and they were about to get their power shut off. This is the second time they've asked us to do something like this. Would it be uncharitable to help them out again (if they ask) only on the condition that they get financial counseling?
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Tracy, wife to Shawn, mama to Samuel (4/01) and Joseph (11/11), and Thomas (2/15)
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LisaR
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have any of you read the book "Boundaries"??
It changed our life!!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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guitarnan
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Tracy,
I don't think you should pay his bills, period. If they have chronic spending/debt/payment issues, they will not change their habits as long as they can get friends to help out. Even if they end up with no power for a while, that's not your responsibility. It's theirs. They could have a yard sale or sell things on Craigslist to pay that bill. Perhaps downsizing is in their future, too.
We have a couple of family members who are always complaining about how high their bills are, and then they say things like, "I got KFC for dinner and it was $40." (For five people, two of them children.) They spend money on hair coloring (in a salon) for a 10th grader and then complain some more. They won't make budgets and they won't do any kind of cost/benefit analysis on major purchases. So...my dh and I have reluctantly concluded that we can't help them right now (except for car repair, which is a must-do). They are making no attempt to help themselves, and that has to come first.
There's definitely a difference between helping and enabling, and between being charitable and being a doormat, IMHO.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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LisaR
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Isn't this also just a part of "growing up"?? (maturity)
I've been reading alot lately about how our generation is one of many many adult "babies" who have been rescued far too often and are emotionally/financially unable to care for themselves (food/clothing/shelter/stable relationships)and it is due to the fact that they never learned how!!
So IF all of their friends/family "allowed" them to fail ,(instead of constantly helping out of one drama to the next) we would actually be helping them through a life process they should have started learning while still living at home.
I do see certain families/adults that almost also want to depend on the attention that financial/emotional crisis brings. That things are ALWAYS worse for them than ANYONE else, and they enjoy the attention and the rallying behind then as they are continually rescued....
Let the electricity be turned off, I'd say - there is almost always a way to get it turned back on!!!
(can you tell I'm a school of hard knocks type of gal!!??)
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Michaela
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organiclilac wrote:
| (We'll see if we get the money today - we were supposed to yesterday.) |
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You mean to tell me that you don't have to pick it up yourself, but the person will bring it to you?! I'm an idiot enough to deliver and pick up.
Anyone want a zero interest loan that is always delivered to you in cash and when you pay back...I'll even pick it up. Better than drive thru service I tell yah. I'm not going to get it this time. I know I'm a SAHM with nothing else better to do  . I was told it's waiting for me to come get it since their too busy right now. A stand off or sorts since I said we will be home all week.
I CANNOT say no. The bank account is negative, no money for milk, no money for gas, but had money to pay the guy working on the house (nothing necessary...scraping off the "outdated" popcorn ceiling and paint rooms). No, that's not from a person of my generation or younger.
That person who is younger asked the same day...
Then I get a call from a friend who I haven't seen or heard from in months (I reach out. I invited her over a few times and asked her to join our new hs group... She declined both). She invites us to dinner...can you guess what she wanted? 
Why don't these people want me for me, not what I may be able to give. People wonder why I don't like to answer my phone.  They don't call just to chit chat. The conversations are so emotionally draining...cheating boyfriends, child custody, possible molestation, ....
I told the two family members that I don't know what they think, but we juggle to find the money to loan.
So frustrating. Ok. That was a big ol' vent.
I just haven't figured out how to be there for people and listen the way friends and family should, without being so sad and feel so used.
BTW, Thank you to everyone who mentioned Dave Ramsey in my last big ol' vent.
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Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
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LisaR
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Michaela,
YOU might be the very sort of person I often feel frustrated with . I know families who make literally twice as much as dh, and they have had other homeschooling families buy them cars, pay their child's tuition (they make waaaayyy too much for financial aid, but are somehow always in a financial drama that just "happens" to them!!)
I have seen families who are like doormats even take up public collections for these type of life suckers.
It really burns me up sometimes....and I go back and forth between feeling frustrated with the "takers" and feeling frustrated with the "givers"....
If you have not read the Boundaries book by Cloud and Townsend I highly reccomend it. It is at Amazon for about 10.00- there's even a workbook option!!
and please take this a bit toungue in cheek- it has been a long day here!!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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JodieLyn
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Michaela, there's a couple of things that really helps when I remember to do it. When you say "no" do NOT give excuses.. they don't really care what your excuse is.. it won't soften the no and they'll just use it to argue with you.. don't give them that fingerhold to pick away at your resolve. Change the subject asap after you say no.. and practise if you need to, to make is feel natural not to give excuses.
"No, I'm sorry, but I'll pray for you. Hasn't this weather been something else lately?"
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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folklaur
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Michaela wrote:
They don't call just to chit chat.
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Oh, Michaela! 
I'd call ya just to chat! 
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organiclilac
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guitarnan wrote:
Tracy,
I don't think you should pay his bills, period. |
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I certainly feel this way at times, but then he did pay us right back the first time - the next day. Plus this time, we did not realize the extent of the issue until we had already agreed to help out. They do not use credit cards, so they could not pay the bill online/by phone, and we had the impression that they had just forgotten to mail a check and were trying to avoid a late fee (they didn't say this, we assumed). It wasn't until we called to pay that we realized how overdue the bill was. It is so hard to know where charity ends and enabling begins - I want to err on the side of charity, but how much is too much?
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Tracy, wife to Shawn, mama to Samuel (4/01) and Joseph (11/11), and Thomas (2/15)
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guitarnan
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I think asking friends to pay your bills, even temporarily, is too much. $800 is way, way too much.
It's great they don't use credit cards...right up to the point where they're still spending more than they have. They really presumed upon your friendship. Even my own family members haven't asked me for that much money all at once.
So...assuming they repay promptly, I think it would be OK to say, "I'm glad things worked out this time, but it was a real hardship to tie up that money for those days...I'm afraid next time we won't be able to do that, so you'll need to call on someone else."
In the end it boils down to...you are not a bank. Banks make loans. Friends have barbecues. IMHO, and I realize I'm just one person, it's not the same thing.
I think if you set a "future" boundary, you'll be better able to refuse if they ask again.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Erin
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Michaela wrote:
What's the difference between being helpful vs. being a doormat?
Is there ever a time that you should stop giving when you have it to give? (not just money, but time or emotions or anything) When is enough, enough? or is it ever? |
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Michaela
I would really second the Boundaries recommendation, I'm a former doormat (never lent money though).
To answer your question, yes there is a time when you should stop giving, that time is when it is affecting your vocation. When you are being drained emotionally by people and then get off the phone and yell at your dc because you are all sucked up by someone else then you need to set your boundaries very firmly. When people drop in (or phone) and therefore your dc's educational time is blown for the day. When your husband only gets 'crumbs' from you because your family (extended) or 'friends' have had 'the cake' then enough is enough.
You are not 'being helpful' when you rescue people, really you're not. Its hard but you have to stop rescuing people from themselves or they will continue their behavioural patterns. (I'm not talking genuine situations here, I'm talking people who come to expect 'you' to rescue them)
The other really scary thing to remember is that you are modeling for your children. If your children see you being a doormat then they will be doormats. (That was a big motivation for me, I want something better for my dc)
It's hard, I know it's really hard to say no but I encourage you to start practicing. It's quite empowering after a while. Oh and role play what you are going to say in situations, and do NOT give explanations as to your decisions, firstly they will try to blow holes into your whys and secondly and more importantly you don't owe others justifications.
ETA: Just noticed JodieLyn said the same.
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Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
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mathmama
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JodieLyn wrote:
I think you also have to consider it in terms of the other person, so not just "am I helpful or a doormat" but "am I helping or hurting them"
Like if help is preventing someone from being able/willing to help themselves.. perhaps it's not really help anymore. |
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This is well put. That is what I was going to say. We have an ongoing situation with my bil who is mentally ill among other things. We finally realized that "helping" him was actually helping him to stay in his sickness. So, we have detached ourselves from him. We offer prayer and we will offer help once we see that he is doing for himself and that it will actually help him.
This is much different from a friend who has a temporary setback and needs some help for a time.
Beth
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LisaR
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I suppose my question, too, is how in the world does the utility bill get to 800.00 to begin with?? We live in the same part of the country, and our Ameren Bill just came a few days ago. (Gas and Electric) It was 123.00. In fact, going over the past 4 months, we only got close to 200.00 one time, so I am assuming this 800.00 bill HAD to have accumulated over at least 4 months. (or they need some serious lessons in energy efficiency!!)
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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KC in TX
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cactus mouse wrote:
Michaela wrote:
They don't call just to chit chat.
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Oh, Michaela!
I'd call ya just to chat! |
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Me, too!
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KC,
wife to Ben (10/94),
Mama to LB ('98)
Michaela ('01)
Emma ('03)
Jordan ('05)
And, my 2 angels, Rose ('08) and Mark ('09)
The Cabbage Patch
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organiclilac
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LisaR wrote:
| I suppose my question, too, is how in the world does the utility bill get to 800.00 to begin with?? We live in the same part of the country, and our Ameren Bill just came a few days ago. (Gas and Electric) It was 123.00. In fact, going over the past 4 months, we only got close to 200.00 one time, so I am assuming this 800.00 bill HAD to have accumulated over at least 4 months. (or they need some serious lessons in energy efficiency!!) |
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Yes, this is the issue exactly - I should have clarified further that we were only asked to pay $220, which we assumed was their payment for the last month, but when we called found that it was the minimum to keep their power on. So, we paid that (NOT the full $800), but yes, it was clearly a long-term problem and not just "forgot to mail the check" which is what we initially thought.
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Tracy, wife to Shawn, mama to Samuel (4/01) and Joseph (11/11), and Thomas (2/15)
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LisaR
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organiclilac wrote:
Yes, this is the issue exactly - I should have clarified further that we were only asked to pay $220, which we assumed was their payment for the last month, but when we called found that it was the minimum to keep their power on. So, we paid that (NOT the full $800), but yes, it was clearly a long-term problem and not just "forgot to mail the check" which is what we initially thought. |
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ugh! so sorry that you have to deal with this. I hope you get your money back.
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Michaela
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Erin wrote:
| To answer your question, yes there is a time when you should stop giving, that time is when it is affecting your vocation. |
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 Everything you said is exactly what's happening. My hubby has been out of town for a week, guess what he has called home to hear? After we got off the phone a few times I realized I spent the brief time we had to talk telling him about them. It is so confusing regarding my kids...I want them to be there for me when I'm older. However they witness how negative this is because my husband has a big heart, he will loan, but it bothers him to work 12+ hours a day supporting everyone else. We would have sold or pawned belongings before asking...there was a time DH took on a second job. It's hard to understand. Everything that I try to protect my children from is happening within my extended family.
I think it boils down to this: If a family member asks for $100, I can't get past the thought that if I can get it, then I should help. I feel like a liar (choices are either be helpful or a liar) when they ask, "Do you have $100 that I can borrow?" The reason I stumble is because it would be a lie to say no. (Thank goodness it was only $100 this time.)
Helping...that's what we are supposed to do! Give the shirt off your back, food from your pantry, help people who need it. Watching them fall while I sit on that $100 seems so sinful. Seriously. I feel like God will say to me one day..."You could have helped her." So, why didn't I? to have her taste what overspending and being materialistic does? Ugh. Somehow it seems wrong to punish....why do I have to be the punisher?
I guess it's going to come to a blow because I didn't go pick up the money. That REALLY must make them think we don't need it. It's not that. If I ever borrowed money from someone, I would be on their doorstep returning ASAP.
I'll look for the book at the library today. I understand boundaries, saying no can be simple, but family is different. (Especially a parent!!) There is a line in Dave Ramsey's book about how Thanksgiving dinner tastes different when there are people at the table who owe you money.
I'm doing the same thing I complained they are. However, I do come to the 4 Real boards to chit chat and feel like I'm around like minded women!
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Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
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LisaR
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Oh Michaela, I will pray for you. There are specifics within the Boundaries books even addressing in laws, adult parents, etc. with specific scripts to use and everything, AND letting you know how you are not lying when you say you do not have 100.00 to help them. It is Biblical and Just, I promise.
How very very draining. and I agree. How very hard for your kids.
,
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: What's the difference?
