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teachingmyown
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| Posted: July 14 2008 at 10:00am | IP Logged
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I think this falls under the "philosophy" category as the two views I am comparing come from different schools of thought.
I was listening to an Andrew Pudewa talk this weekend and one thing he said that struck me is that you can't help a child "too much". His contention is that if the child knows he can depend on you, that you won't leave him to flounder over an assignment, that over time, he will gain confidence and eventually say "I got it Mom, thanks".
Then I was reading on the Robinson site, or a related site (I was everywhere on the web this weekend!) that when your child has been sitting with his math book for three hours and tells you he can't figure out the problem, then you say "Well, I guess you just need more time." and walk away.
Of course, there has to be a balance. I would love to hear what you all think about it!
I much more lean toward Pudewa's perspective. My dh, however, says that it is indeed possible to help too much, that our children need to learn how to figure things out for themselves. (My dh has worked with so many people who expect someone to hold their hand through every new task, that he is adamant that his kids be capable of teaching themselves.)
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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italianalaskan
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| Posted: July 14 2008 at 11:14am | IP Logged
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Like yuo said: you need to find balance.
If a child can't seam to grasp a concept we should be there for him/her untill they see the light. If that means sitting with the child at every homework.
Once the concept starts to make sense to the child than you can "let the bird fly" little by little.
I totally disagree with the Robinson idea of letting a child work on something for so many hours. If they work on math for 3 hrs and still are not done two are reasons: 1. they didn't get the concept, 2. they need to finish later or next day with a fresh mind.
I like Andrew Pudewa, I think he really gets boys and I love his approach on teaching.
Simona
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Maddie
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| Posted: July 14 2008 at 11:26am | IP Logged
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I struggle with this two but never was able to put it into words. I'm wondering out loud if it is good to follow Andrew Pudewa's advice on school matters and have a "Robinson" approach (I'm not familiar with them at all) on matters such as chores, after taking the time to instruct them on how you want it done? I have one son who would just flounder in the water if I had the Robinsons attitude.
It probably depends on the student and family situation too.
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hylabrook1
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| Posted: July 14 2008 at 12:00pm | IP Logged
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For me, the balance comes somewhere much closer to helping the child over the bit of the hump where he is stalled. I cannot honestly think that any child has the stamina to sit with a math problem (or any other place where they are stumped) for 3 hours out of laziness or desire to have Mom do his work for him (sorry if I"m reading the wrong things into the Robinson comment Molly shared). Letting someone sit there for too long a time winds up being counter-productive. If a child is sitting there that long on one subject, I can't imagine him having any more capacity to sit and finish any other work assigned for that day.
Anyway, I don't come running super-immediately and jump in to show the child. Usually I'm doing something else, so I honestly tell the child I'll be there in a minute. Nine times out of ten, when I come to the child 3 minutes later, he has figured it out for himself. Most times when the child doesn't figure out how to get *unstuck*, a hint or well-placed question from me is all it takes for the child to be able to continue on his own. Some of my dc have wanted me to stay in the room when they do certain work (mostly one child in particular with Math) as a sort of security, but this has not prevented them from doing their work.
If a child is having problems getting a paper or essay started,and either asks for help or sits staring at the page or computer screen for more than about half an hour, I will give maybe 10 minutes to a discussion of "what is it you're trying to say?" Sometimes I'll take notes of what the child came up with. Then I'll walk away, saying, "Just write down the things we talked about. You have the notes here."
Bottom line, though, is that I think you have an intuitive feeling with each child and each situation whether they need to *sweat it out* or whether they just need a little push. And giving that little push is the way I would interpret the perspective Molly heard Andrew Pudewa talk about. When that push produces results, then you can tell the child, "See, you did it! And it came out very well," and so the child's confidence is increased for next time.
Peace,
Nancy
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Eleanor
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| Posted: July 14 2008 at 5:10pm | IP Logged
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My DH has been an Art Robinson supporter for years, so we just had to buy the curriculum as soon as the first pregnancy test came up positive.  I have mixed feelings about it, and I'm not sure how it will end up fitting into our homeschooling, but it's provided a lot of food for thought.
The Robinson approach is an attempt to reconcile lofty goals with pragmatic realities. How do you raise children to be faithful Christians, living a family-centered life, protected from the corrupt influences of modern culture... and also give them the knowledge and skills necessary to become first-rate scholars in any field of their choosing... and do all this with a very limited budget, and hardly any time to spend on teaching? (For those unfamiliar with the story, Art Robinson's wife died suddenly when their six children were still young. He had to take over the homeschooling as a single parent in an isolated rural area, while still doing his full-time work as an independent research scientist.) The result is sort of "St. Thomas More on a shoestring." It's not always pretty, but it seems to get results.
I'm not familiar with Andrew Pudewa's background, but my "inner Robinsonian" has this response to the above advice:
At some point, this hypothetical math student is almost certain to be doing work that's beyond his mother's ability. Even if she once learned it herself, she's very likely to have forgotten it, after 15+ years. What happens now? Does the mother have to study advanced math herself, so she'll be able to explain all the difficult concepts? Or will the family need to hire a tutor, or enroll the child in outside courses? These are workable options for some families, but might pose serious difficulties for others.
Math seems to provide more than its share of "hard case" scenarios that show up the limitations of various educational philosophies. I don't think anyone enjoys the idea of a child staring at a math problem for hours on end, but I can see how it might be a necessary stage, if the goal is for him to develop the thinking skills and fortitude necessary to learn advanced material independently. If he's really stuck, in lieu of "hints," Robinson recommends simply directing him back to the section in the textbook where the concept was taught. Nothing warm and fuzzy about that approach, but it should be sufficient to solve the problem. (Of course, this presumes that the math curriculum is thorough and well-written -- but I'd hope this would be the case anyway, no matter what the teaching style.  )
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: July 14 2008 at 7:32pm | IP Logged
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I think the answer might lie somewhere in the middle.
For instance, when I have a difficult thing I'm trying to learn and I'm feeling stuck.. I often will go away and do something else and then come back to it.. it let's me have time for it to rattle around in my brain without me trying to direct my thinking on it (also known as focus).. I tend to be an intuitive thinker so this really does work.. when I come back to it I often can see it in a different way.
So while I wouldn't make a child sit and work at a problem for 3 hours and then tell them to keep working at it.. but taking the principle that I wouldn't spoon feed it to them but let them work it out regardless of the time factor.. I'd let them leave it and come back to it etc and try different ways of looking at it.
You ever try and remember something and can't.. and as soon as you're concentrating on something else it pops into your mind? It's sorta like that.
And while I don't believe that everything a public school does is wrong or unhelpful.
One of the things that left a bad taste in my mouth over public schools was an experience I had in 8th grade.
I had been attending a very small elementary school at quite a distance from the high school (a good 45min-1hr drive) at the beginning of the year.. the group of us in the top level of math (we stayed in one classroom) went quickly through an 8th grade math book, and then on our own with only very occational helps (though we worked together which was a big help) we started on Alegbra. At the middle of the year we were approx. 1/3 of the way through that when I moved. As you can see working as a small group we were well on the way to being able to finish by the end of the school year.
When I moved we were only a short distance from the local high school and those in the advanced math had been attending the high school for math the entire year and were 1/2 way through Alegbra.
The school beauracracy, in all it's wisdom, absolutely insisted that there was no way I could catch up on my own.. that it would be "too much work" for me. Too much work??? when all the other kids that I would know in the class could help me because they'd already learned it?? when I'd gotten as far as I had working with other students to figure it out?? without an instructor?? without tutors???
Anyway.. the point is that while you don't want to make it impossible for the child.. there are ways to help them learn how to think through problems rather than just dumping it on them and expecting them to sit and work until it's figured out.. and without easing the work so much that you disable the kids.
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G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: July 14 2008 at 8:32pm | IP Logged
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I've got no problem with helping a child over the humps, but I think I'm more of a Robinsonian. I think its too easy as a hs mom to keep helping and helping and my fear is that my children will never learn to 'swim' without me as their 'waterwings', so to speak, if I am always there to rescue them. I am gentler on the youngers than the olders, I make sure they aren't using confusing materials or ones that they truly aren't ready for (I am also a proponent of the better late than early philosophy), and I encourage them to go back and do it right with an attitude that I am *sure* they can do it. I think in the end it promotes self confidence and independent learning.
Just .02
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Willa
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| Posted: July 14 2008 at 8:59pm | IP Logged
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Eleanor wrote:
| The result is sort of "St. Thomas More on a shoestring." It's not always pretty, but it seems to get results. |
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Love that, Eleanor! I agree!
Quote:
| At some point, this hypothetical math student is almost certain to be doing work that's beyond his mother's ability. Even if she once learned it herself, she's very likely to have forgotten it, after 15+ years. What happens now? |
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This happened to me, but by that time Andrew Pudewa's "Thanks Mom I can manage it now" had kicked in with my student for good. I think it's a bit like attachment parenting. You build security first and understanding that it CAN be done. Then the independence comes later when the child is developmentally at the point to take over the reins. ... usually, in my family, just about the same time they got better than me in some subjects.
This being said, I agree with Robinson's statement that in the end, a child does need to learn for himself. He may have help and support, but the actual clicking over of brain cells leading to comprehension is always his own -- the student's, that is.
I am saying this because I know sometimes I personally have a tendency to rush in and solve my children's mental perplexity too quickly. I am not supporting their learning, I'm rushing it, then. So I think the "Mom helpfulness" CAN be overdone and that is where I do think Robinson decidedly has a point, even though I am more in Pudewa's camp on the general approach.
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Willa
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: July 14 2008 at 9:40pm | IP Logged
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Ditto what Books said.
I did want to add that I looked into the Robinson Curriculum for awhile (about a year ago) and read all the articles. I'm glad I did as I often think of the philosophy when I find myself getting overwhelmed. I'm a huge fan of keeping things simple.
One day though it occurred to me that Art Robinson is a dad and I am not. He runs his homeschool like alot of dads would, very no nonsense. That's not really me or the moms I know. It's not Andrew Pudewa either, for that matter!
I still appreciate the simplicity of the Robinson Curriculum but I keep in mind that HIS method has worked for HIS family. As other have mentioned, whether to help a child or not depends on the child and the particular situation. That's where those wonderful Sacramental Graces come in to help us out!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Too much help
