| Author | |
Erin
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: Oct 01 2005 at 6:22am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
So far our approach to music lessons has been rather child led. Every term I offer the children the opportunity of music lessons and sometimes they have taken it up other times not. Basically the deal is that if they don't practise (and I remind them) then we won't continue lessons.
I know there are two schools of thought here, some say to have lessons when interested, others continue year round proposing that we all have times when it becomes tough and regular lessons help push through this.
A friend asked me a tricky question today. I was sharing with her how I would like my two oldest to take lessons this term (both seem to have ability) and that I was contemplating these questions, whether I should just make them do music. She asked me why did I want them to do music anyway. When I stumbled out that one of my thoughts was that they would perhaps be grateful later. She dumbfounded me with the response that she never uses her music knowledge anymore, she didn't seem to see lessons as important (this is from a woman who can play 3 musical instruments)
I really don't know if I'm taking the right approach or not. I would love to hear your thoughts.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Erica Sanchez
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 05 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1538
|
| Posted: Oct 01 2005 at 3:49pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
This is a great question, Erin. I signed my two big girls up for piano three years ago after hearing a very convincing talk by Andrew Padewah (spelling?) about the huge benefits of music lessons on children's brain development. I think the name of the talk is The Effects of Music, or something similar. I am about to get my next two into lessons as well. They take lessons at a little studio with a few other students and the teacher makes it fun by playing games and such, so I think overall they enjoy it.
As for your friend, I am completely jealous of any adult who has muscial ability. There seems to be so many things you could do if you could play an instrument; assist at Mass, play for the local nativity play, lead praise and worship at youth group, volunteer at a nursing home, lead a children's choir, teach your kids, and my favorite, lead folk songs around the campfire (my dad!). Gosh, I am sure there are more! The above list are all things I have witnessed adults with musical ability doing. Even if you couldn't sing, you could assist or entertain. I am sure your friend is similar to many people who have let their talents/knowledge fade, but it sure seems like a waste to me.
All this from a very unmuscially talented person all the way around, although I can now read sheet music for the piano because of the girls' lessons! 
__________________
Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
tovlo4801
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 28 2005
Location: Minnesota
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 386
|
| Posted: Oct 01 2005 at 4:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Erin,
I should have got my post in before Erica. Now I'm going to sound contrary. 
When we began homeschooling, piano lessons for my oldest was a priority. The reason was partially because of my image of what homeschooling should be at that time. In my mind homeschooling allowed for all those cultural things that were hard to fit in to a regular school situation. My son seemed fairly good at piano and his teacher was a very laid back, flexible person which is exactly what my son needs. However resistance to practicing was great. It's not that he doesn't want to play piano. He just doesn't want to play piano enough.
We agreed with his teacher to take the summer off and let him have a break, thinking that some off time might revive his previous interest. It did not. The end of this summer was crazy for us and I just didn't get our registration in for the fall. I decided to hire a math tutor for him instead and I think I've decided to just let piano go for now. I weighed it and he needs math skills more than he needs the piano. He's expressed some interest in guitar and perhaps if his interest is strong enough I'll pursue that down the road.
It supported me in my decision to hear that your friend doesn't feel her music skill was worth it. I do wish that I had better musical skills as an adult, but the truth is those times of wishing are pretty few. Does my lack of musical training hurt me as an adult? Not really. I think that my kids need to be exposed to music and taught some musical basics, but beyond that I think I'm just going to let their interests dictate how much further to go. Not everyone is meant to walk a musical path. If I insist on years of music lessons when that is not what they are gifted or interested in, then I'm taking away time they could be spending pursuing their real interest and talent areas.
Does that make sense? I'm just working through this right now myself and I'm curious to hear what the decisions of others have been.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Erin
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: Oct 01 2005 at 10:44pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Erica and Richelle,
Thanks for your thoughts. Wow, I guess there are two different ways to look at it. That's the trouble  I don't know which is the best way for our family.
Erica, The talk you mentioned sounded great. I don't suppose you know a link to it? I did a search and couldn't find anything.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| It supported me in my decision to hear that your friend doesn't feel her music skill was worth it. |
|
|
Richelle,
The thing is I disagree with what my friend said yesterday. I see her a a musical person who uses her training without even being aware of it. I guess what my friend meant is that she doesn't have time to play anymore. Erica's suggestions are great but that is what my friend was refering to, she is a very busy homeschooling mum of a large family and just can't do those activites.
However although her children don't have formal lessons anymore, they did at one point. Also if they struggle in their own muscial endeavours she can point them in the right direction. She just doesn't find the time to teach them formally in this area herself. But their home certainly has music in it. She uses music therapy for her children with learning disabilities and they all sing together daily. Whenver we put a Christams Play together we rely on her to play the flute.
So I can see here a case of how someone is passing on musical instruction in her home in an informal way due to her formal training. Unfortunately I don't have the same background. When I was 26 I received some lessons, I even managed to play 'Fur Elise', this year gave me great pleasure. And the little I learnt has certainly helped my children as I have been able to help them to a small extent.
I guess I have a dream of how lovely it would be if my children got to the stage where they could play instruments together. What pleasure and memories they would have. This morning my daughter played a piece on the recorder and I played with her on the piano. "Ode to Joy" Nothing wonderful, a basic piece, but a very enjoyable moment. We went off to Mass humming the tune.  Looks like I've just answered part of the question as to why I would like to have my children learn to play an instrument.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Karen T
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 927
|
| Posted: Oct 01 2005 at 11:35pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Erin,
I completely agree with you. I played a lot of musical instruments when I was younger - took piano lessons for 11 years, was in band on various instruments for 4-5 years. Even though I rarely have time to play now, I don't regret a minute of it. First, having a good knowledge of how to read music is something I think everyone would benefit from. My dh sang in high school, but rarely will in Mass b/c he can't read music, so if the song is unfamiliar he's embarrassed to fake it.
Second, even though as I got older, in high school and college, I had less and less time for music I still enjoyed playing when I could. We bought a piano our 2nd year of marriage, and though there are months that go by without me playing a note( if the littles are awake, they insist on playing with me and if they are asleep, too loud ), and our house really has no good place for the piano (it's currently in our dining room crowding out the table), I wouldn't dream of selling it. I even occasionally get out my flute, although I've forgotten a lot of what I knew.
Music was such a huge part of my life at one point and I feel it enriched me tremendously. With my oldest ds I waited until he showed some interest in an instrument (he refused piano, probably b/c he's very competitive and would not like to play "worse" than I do). In 5th grade he began violin lessons and took for about a year. We stopped b/c his interest was so-so, but also b/c I want to find a better teacher (this one had not taught him to read music other than the names of the notes!) He does want to take again, and even if I have to nag him to practice I know he does enjoy it (other things just get in the way sometimes, as they do for me) I won't insist he take for years if he doesn't want to, but I'd like him to have at least a couple more years on it or another instrument if he chooses.
I also listened to Pudewa's talk about the effect music has on life, and have decided to begin looking into lessons for my 4 and 5 yo soon. Both have tinkered a good bit on the piano and seem to have a bit of talent for making up little tunes and playing over and over, but of course piano is difficult at so young an age b/c of their tiny hands. Haven't decided for sure on that.
Even though I don't play violin, it does seem to be an easier instrument to begin on, *if* they're interested in it.
As for not using music training in your daily life, I think we do use a lot of it unconsciously. Maybe it's coincidental, but both my sister and I did extremely well in math. We both took piano. My brother struggled with math, and had not taken any instrument until high school. Music is a mathematical entity.
Bottom line, I would recommend lessons unless they just absolutely aren't getting anything out of it (and even then, I'd try a few different instruments, voice, etc.)
Karen T
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: Oct 02 2005 at 12:09am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Erin,
I would like to have all my children have music lessons at some point. Some of it has to do with my very limited knowledge/abilities. I took piano for 1 year when I was 12 and didn't even learn how to read music and cannot play or sing anything (unless a CD player counts). I also see the benefits in terms of the ways we can interract as a family. I also know that one of the final vision therapy requirements was met by piano lessons - a lot more efficiently than paying a therapist and with less impact to the family than soccer or gymnastics. I see plenty of benefits and know how much I missed in not having music in my childhood.
However, I also want to strike a balance between providing the musical environment with encouragement to explore and pushing or pressuring a child and I sometimes struggle over what the right thing is in terms of having the children take lessons when they are less than ecstatic over it.
While the children were little, we played a lot of CDs. We won a silly little keyboard at a Buy Wise drugstore drawing. At the time dh was playing around with computers trying to input music (he also is musically like myself - but his field is acoustics) and it seemed like a nice toy for him. Our oldest ended up discovering a real passion and talent - she began playing Christmas carols by ear and begging for lessons so she could learn how to read music. She has had lessons ever since and I've never had to say one word about practicing.
Our second child asked for lessons and it was easy to tag her on to sister's lessons. She wasn't ready, eye skill wise and it really didn't turn out well. We felt some of it was not putting forth the effort herself - and required her to practice consistently for 1 year before quitting (a rather novel approach, I suppose). She actually wanted to continue with lessons for one more year after that when she actually got better since she was practicing, but the interest faded by mid-year and she begged to quit again. She took Cello for a while instead of piano, but we are taking a break to see as she really didn't practice much - just enough to con the teacher. Cello is a much better instrument for her, but she still doesn't have the same passion - hates practicing, dreads lessons, and gets tired of not progressing quickly (because she is not practicing). We struggle with the idea of teaching perseverance as this is a common tendency in the child, but we also don't want her to hate something that she might enjoy if we just back off. Basically, finances dictated the decision. It didn't seem right to make the dc who were really working quit so that this child who wasn't giving her best could continue - even though one of our dc has 3 different instruments. When the oldest is in college, we will be able to pay again and must decide what to do. We are uncertain at this point.
Our 8 yo science lover asked for lessons for a year and we have just started - so far it is going well and he is fascinated by all the scales, etc. and how the instrument works. I do not monitor practice and so far he is doing it without nagging.
Our 6 yo also wants piano lessons but we are making him wait - mostly because we want his eye skills in place so he doesn't stumble over the music and struggle with that portion.
Our 11 yo has been adament and very vocal about music - he hates it and wants to blow up all the pianos. We have not even suggested lessons for him yet. He knows, at some point, we will require enough lessons to at least learn how to read music, but we are waiting for him to get a little older. Our idea being that if we did it now, he'd really hate it. As he builds confidence and with continued exposure, he may develop a liking for something. I also suspect he may be more inclined to try an instrument when the older is away at college. He has struggled with a number of issues related to vision and I really think music would be very good for him all the way around, but we want to time things for the best possible chance of success and we are noting personalities of teachers as our others explore - hoping to find a really good fit for him. I do think an instrument (strings or piano) requiring coordination of both sides of the body will really benefit him, but he will need a teacher that really understands how hard he works, even when he seems to not remember what he just learned. I think he is a little afraid of being in the shadows of older sister (who has a real gift and a passion) and 8 yo brother (who seems to be one to whom everything comes easily). We're thinking and praying. If he and our 2 dd would take togehter that might work, but we'll have to find a really gentle teacher who is too smart to put up with dd tricks.
At some point our oldest will be skilled enough to help give rudimentary introductions and at least teach how to read music to the younger children. She informally showed 8 yo some things and we saw that he really took off and our dd informed us that he really needed formal lessons - thus he got on the waiting list and has just started.
In the meantime, we all attend concerts, recitals, etc. and I still have my trusty CDs.
I love the way music has the ability to bond the family. Children play duets, serve together with music, etc. and now that someone in the family plays, we can at least sing a reasonable Christmas carol on evenings, etc. It is also a great bond when you want to celebrate the true meaning of the season with extended family that are not all of the same faith.
I'll continue to look at responses here as I might have asked the same question. I do know that a lot of people here begin children very young in the strings. We simply cannot afford it at that young an age and everyone has to wait their turn. Sometimes I wish we had started our oldest a little younger - but then I cannot look back and who knows whether or not it would have burned her out. We've read some things about not starting a child too young - they don't know what they want or what instrument they really like.(I think this was in the Better Late than Early book. Other things say don't wait too late - the early years are so foundational. Some things seem to imply that if your dc doesn't start in strings at age 3 - 4 or at least by a late 8 or 9, you really aren't going to be able to get good enough to play professionally. (We have met at least one professional string player that started playing at age 11) I tend to doubt both extremes. Music as a profession is certainly competitive, but I think passion and work and drive is a lot more important than the age at which you started. Not everyone will even want to play professionally and the joy of playing should be reason enough.
I'm getting very long-winded here - I guess one point I am trying to make is that I don't think there is an absolute answer to the question asked. Music is a wonderful and valuable asset in the home and how a family provides that is going to be very unique - lessons, concert attendance, informal pick up music in the home, etc. A lot will depend on the individual make-up in the family. Requiring lessons seems to be a delicate balance - expressing the importance of music, and getting a more expert mentor in demonstrating techniques and skills as part of that music environment and encouragement on the one hand and having insight to know when it is no longer a mentoring/encouraging event but has become a pushy attempt to live through your children. Perhaps it is a little like dinner - we do require our children to taste everything but generally don't force them to take seconds and thirds of a despised item. We do, at some point, notice if there is a glaring imbalance that remains over time and correct this with some family rules. We may decide that we need to require some music just to balance out the education - much like we would require math at some point.
Just some thoughts.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Erin
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: Oct 02 2005 at 5:46am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Wow, Janet and Karen,
Thank you so much for your thoughts. Soo much to process. This is great.
You know I really have to say your thoughts have really hit chords  with me. I've gained so much from this. I'm feeling music lessons is the way for our family to go.
The big question next obviously raised by you both is when? Also a very important factor raised by Janet is the importance of who. My ds10, sounds similar in somes ways to your ds11, Janet. For him he really needs to connect with the teacher.
We'd read lit. on not starting our children till 8, and I'm comfortable staying with that. Part of that is financial and also the lack of discipline for practice prior to then.
Another area to ponder is what to play. Dh and I had always felt that piano was a good base to start with and that is where we had wanted the children to begin. However after a little piano the children have said that if they do have lessons again they want to try something else, dd12 clarinet or flute, ds10 guitar. Another friend has said to me she reckons I should follow that if that's what they are interested in. She has had her children have piano lessons for several years and they are now just changing over. In hindsight she feels that they could have branched out sooner.
Going back now to re-read all your great responses. Thanks.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Sarah
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 17 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1624
|
| Posted: Oct 02 2005 at 11:39am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Fr. said at Mass today that we should learn hymns because St. Paul says we should to keep us wise. The Devil doesn't want us to be wise, he explained. So in singing hymns after Mass we are keeping the Devil away.
"Brethren, see how you walk circumspectly, not as unwise, but as wise; redeeming the time, because the days are evil...but be ye filled the Holy Spirit speaking to yourselves with psalms and hymns, and spiritual canticles, singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord. Eph. 5:15
Anyway, wouldn't this mean that music is something we should all know a little about? I don't mean we all need to be concert pianists. But music is a good to pursue. What about the kids who despise practing? My father is a professional musician and said his father made him stick with it-he's thankful for that. On the other hand, my husband quit piano in 6th grade and regrets it every day. He took it back up in college and loves it. My son, age 9, despises piano but we've told him 15 min/day is a requirement in our school. My other son loves it. (age 7). Then we can ask if there are things we know better than our children and do we let them completely direct themselves? I have a child who would do nothing if I didn't require it (oldest & male)-literally sit on the couch and look at me or play catch.
__________________
Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Karen T
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 927
|
| Posted: Oct 02 2005 at 2:02pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Erin wrote:
The big question next obviously raised by you both is when?
We'd read lit. on not starting our children till 8, and I'm comfortable staying with that. Part of that is financial and also the lack of discipline for practice prior to then.
. |
|
|
I had previously read about 7-8 also, and heard that from a piano teacher. However, after hearing Andrew Pudewa's talk, there was something in there about some of the benefits of starting earlier. Not necessarily that they'd be concert pianists  but more of the effects of musical training on the brain. I also think that in some cases, the older ages recommended by some teachers is out of their own laziness or more charitably, inexperience with younger children. After all, the Suzuki method is supposed to work very well with very young kids and I'm sure there are other "methods" for young ones as well. The problem becomes finding the right teacher, esp. for young ones. I wouldn't start my kids young unless I felt very good about their teacher. Someone who harrasses them about practicing, or humiliates them, is going to do more harm than good.
I think the early vs. late is not that important in the longterm scheme of how well they do in music. As someone said, passion, motivation and I think innate talent all have more to do with ultimate success than the age at which they began. But when you look at the *other* effects of music, specifically playing a musical instrument, then early may be better.
As for what instrument, i"ve always thought piano is a good base b/c you learn both clefs and how to use both hands. It's also a great instrument to have as an adult; more likely to sit down at a party and play a piano than to whip out our trumpet or something 
But, the stretch of the fingers is harder for young kids and I can see where violin, etc. would be easier. I don't recommend wind instruments for kids under about 10, though, b/c they require you to learn certain mouth postures as well as the fingerings. Brasses (trumpet, tuba, French horn) esp. are difficult to blow at first with the proper breath control. Reeds, OTOH, like flute, sax and clarinet all require both hands to control at the same time as breath control.
Guitar is also harder than violin, viola, etc. b/c the fingerings require multiple fingers down in different positions at once, vs. just one finger on one string. I had taken guitar for a short while as a 10yo and found it very hard, even after several yrs of piano and one of clarinet. When ds wanted to learn violin, I thought it would be similar but found it is a LOT easier.
When I bought ds's violin at a nice little shop, there was the tiniest violin I had ever seen hanging up. I asked about it, and the owner of the shop had made that violin for his 3 yr old son to learn on. He'd long outgrown it and now it was for sale. It was much smaller than the 3/4 size ds had rented before we bought a full size one.
Karen T
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
BrendaPeter
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Oct 02 2005 at 5:52pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hi Erin,
I don't want to complicate the issue but thought I would share our experiences.
Our 2 oldest started lessons when they were about 7 & 8. I prayed that we would find someone who was willing to come to our home & God answered that prayer! About a year and 1/2 ago our 4 oldest (5, 5, 8 & 9) began lessons with a very talented teacher. He challenges the kids but is also gentle with them. He comes to our house about 2 1/2 hours/week.
We have never had a word of complaint from any of our kids in regard to practicing. It's just something they all do every morning. Our 5-year-old (at the time)ds is somewhat talented musically & starting at 5 was perfect for her. She has really flown through the pieces. It's been more of a struggle for her twin brother but I think he has gained so much from the lessons in terms of reading & math skills. I also love that our 2 littlest ones (2 1/2 & 1) are exposed to piano music daily.
Some of Andrew Pudewa's tapes are available through NACHE & you can get "The Effect of Music on Living Things" from Emmanuel Books.
__________________
Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Erin
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: Oct 03 2005 at 4:53am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Wow,
You all have lots of great thoughts.
i was interested to read what you had to say about guitars, Karen. Going to see if my ds may be interested in violin instead. He was at one stage, a good friend of his plays.
Just dashing this off, will write more thoughts later.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Erin
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: Oct 07 2005 at 8:23am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Today I took Chiara to visit the music teacher, the idea was for dd to decide what instrument she would like to learn. She had a go of the flute, clarinet and saxaphone (this very talented lady plays all of these plus others). Chiara chose the clarinet. Which is great considering we already own one.
We were tossing up between two teachers who have very good names in the town. I rang a woman whom dh knew whose children were very musical. This lady explained to me that although both teachers were very good they had different approaches. It was so helpful to have 'inside information.'
I've decided for the moment to leave lessons for the boys, -cost is a factor here. And unless they ask otherwise to wait till they are a year or two older.
Dd starts here first lesson on Tuesday. She is quite keen. Thank you all so much for your help.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : The Arts in the Everyday
Topic: Music Lessons -'To be or not to be?'
