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UK Mum
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| Posted: April 28 2008 at 3:12pm | IP Logged
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Good evening, ladies.
I have been pondering what route to take with my dd's mathematics in the next school year. At the momment (she is 5) & we play loys of math games, counting, cooking etc etc.
Myself I have no maths skill at all. I hated maths at school & I have a real fear of letting her down in this area. However, my confidence in her ability to learn is growing as my ablility to teach diminishes 
I would like to go another year (or as far as possible!) with no curriculum. We have lots of manipulatives & maths stories. Where online could i find a good list of what she 'should' be covering math-wise at that age?
Also, I would love to hear your thoughts on this topic... both from those who use curriculum & those who dont.
Thank you
Lynn
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Martha
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| Posted: April 28 2008 at 4:05pm | IP Logged
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There are several classical methods that teach math as unnessessary as a stand along subject prior to the age of 10.
The Trivium book by the Bluedorn couple discusses this.
I can completely see it as being okay.
I completely do not have the confidence to do that though. 
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: April 28 2008 at 6:04pm | IP Logged
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I don't use a math curriculum until middle school. Seems to be working well so far. Ds does not seem to be suffering from it.
I do use lots of math games, mental math,etc and lately I have been incorporating Montessori methods and materials with my younger ones. Those are essentially just math games (they are even called "games" like stamp game, snake game, etc) It's just that they use the specific Montessori-designed materials. You could do the same types of activities with simpler items, too. Dice, dominoes, counting objects,playing cards, etc are all great, cheap, easy math manipulatives that can be used a million different ways.
There are some nice books out there called Family Math which will give you ideas for math games all the way up to middle school level.
Have fun with your little one!
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Betsy
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+JMJ+
I didn't do ANY math for my 6yo and just started formal math at 7yo. He excelled beautifully and likes math. I know if I would have started him earlier we would have had a lot of tears, etc.
So, I would go with your gut and wait until you are ready.
Also,this yahoo group is really good. It has a lot of information on math literature and other outside the box math information. I know you could ask all your questions there!
Betsy
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Willa
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| Posted: April 28 2008 at 7:51pm | IP Logged
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With my middle children I used very little formal math until they were in 5th grade or so. We played games, did mental math, price estimates, that sort of thing. Once in a while we'd take out a workbook or print something out from the internet.
They are both doing fine in math now. They were actually advanced for a couple of years after we started formal math and found the material extremely easy. They have settled down now into an "average" track -- on grade level.
I think you can mess up a kid with too much formal math too early. My second-born loved math until we used Rod and Staff Arithmetic in first grade, when we were enrolled with Seton. I don't think he ever recovered from it completely. I was an inexperienced teacher and didn't back off when I should have, because I got advice that kids should learn to get through things they don't like. Sigh 
I think it's a lot easier to catch up after little to no formal math teaching, than recover from too much formal teaching. There is really not all that much you need to know in basic arithmetic. Most of the difficulty is in learning when you don't have the background of math judgments and experiences.
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Willa
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Willa
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| Posted: April 28 2008 at 8:00pm | IP Logged
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One of my favorite sites for a math scope and sequence is Internet4Classrooms. There are games correlated with American standards. I can't find anything exactly similar to that corresponding to UK Standards but here is a link page for Key Stage 1 activities which might give you some ideas.
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JuliaT
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I have experience with Willa's comment that you can cause problems with a child's ability to do math if you start with a formal math program too early. This is what happened with my dd and I have been trying to fix it ever since.
My ds (my middle) thrives on formal math so it is working for him but with my youngest I have decided to forgo a math curriculum and solely do living math. We use RightStart with my oldest two and I am now pretty confident on how to teach math the RS way without a curriculum. I am looking forward to my walk on the wild side. 
Blessings,
Julia
mom of 3 (8,7,5)
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Sarah M
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| Posted: April 29 2008 at 10:10am | IP Logged
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I don't use a set math curriculum for my 6yo, either. Check out this article by Cathy Duffy for help on first grade math without a textbook. Also, this Ruth Beechick book isn't a set curriculum, but gives a good idea for the math concepts a child of that age is ready for.
Hope that helps!
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UK Mum
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| Posted: May 19 2008 at 11:50am | IP Logged
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thanks to everyone for your replies. Sarah, I actually have the Beechick book & the Trivium book, & family math! the thing I lack (along with Martha) is the confidence. I am really going to spend time over the summer, researching this, (thanks for the links, willa!) & thank you for the yahoo group, Betsy. Theressa, I love reading your blog for montessori inspiration.
I do want this to be the way we do maths, at least for the next year or two.
Thank you again, ladies.
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SallyT
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I'm not planning to use any formal math curriculum with my soon-to-be 6yo, either. We've been doing some real-life math, some games, some math literature -- we are very literature-based, so I'm always looking for more good math stories. Maureen Wittman has an extensive list of math literature in her book, For the Love of Literature, and that's been a lifesaver for me!
My daughter's algebra tutor is a homeschooling mother with 2 children, ages 7 and 5 -- both of them particularly love The Number Devil. At the library some weeks back, the 7yo was chatting away to me about Fibonacci numbers . . .
Barrons also carries a very good math-activities book called Math Wizardry for Kids. I have never used this as much as I would like, though I've had it for years. Hoping to make it the basis of my younger children's math this coming year. Lots of play with shapes, number concepts, even poetry!
And yes, I am with the "better too late than too early" school of thought. My 10yo is only this year really formally, consistently doing math, after years of math games and hit-and-miss workbook work. And he's doing fine.
Best of luck!
Sally
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LLR4
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Can I jump in with a question?
Why/how can starting with formal math too early mess them up?
I ask because my 3 kindergarteners have been doing Horizons Math (workbooks) all year, and they really love it. We also use manipultives, and lots of math games, by their request. They are always asking me to give them some math problems (to do mentally) on their play time.
I know all kids are different, but I'm just wondering what you mean.
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Willa
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LLR4 wrote:
Can I jump in with a question?
Why/how can starting with formal math too early mess them up? |
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My view for what it's worth--
1. Formal math too early can mess them up if they hate it. I actually use Horizons K with my Kers too, and they love it. The program I used with my second son in 1st grade was Rod and Staff -- pages and pages of small drill -- very much something that rewarded tidiness and compliance, not real math understanding.
2. Formal math too early can mess them up if it becomes divorced from reality. I think this varies from child to child. I didn't go into the second half of Horizons K with my two Kers this year because they weren't yet solid on understanding 2-digit numbers in a real sense, let alone add and subtract them. I could imagine that some Kers are fine with the conceptualization though. The job for the parent or teacher seems to be to make sure there is lots of checking of understanding going on.
It's easier to make lots of progress in the computational part of math if the conceptualization is sound. But it's difficult to rely simply on math computation know-how when the conceptualization is vague or lacking. And some math books progress too fast to the abstract stage.
Hope that helps -- and please feel free to disagree, because I am no math-teaching expert -- this is what I've seen with my kids as the two main problems of *only* emphasizing formal math.
Your kids don't really sound like they have either problem, so if they love it and are getting it I wouldn't see a problem.
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Willa
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folklaur
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I can not tell you how thrilled I was to see this thread. And to read that it is okay - even up to 5th grade! - to not do "formal math." Wow.
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LLR4
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| Posted: May 19 2008 at 7:55pm | IP Logged
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Willa wrote:
LLR4 wrote:
Can I jump in with a question?
Why/how can starting with formal math too early mess them up? |
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My view for what it's worth--
1. Formal math too early can mess them up if they hate it. I actually use Horizons K with my Kers too, and they love it. The program I used with my second son in 1st grade was Rod and Staff -- pages and pages of small drill -- very much something that rewarded tidiness and compliance, not real math understanding.
2. Formal math too early can mess them up if it becomes divorced from reality. I think this varies from child to child. I didn't go into the second half of Horizons K with my two Kers this year because they weren't yet solid on understanding 2-digit numbers in a real sense, let alone add and subtract them. I could imagine that some Kers are fine with the conceptualization though. The job for the parent or teacher seems to be to make sure there is lots of checking of understanding going on.
It's easier to make lots of progress in the computational part of math if the conceptualization is sound. But it's difficult to rely simply on math computation know-how when the conceptualization is vague or lacking. And some math books progress too fast to the abstract stage.
Hope that helps -- and please feel free to disagree, because I am no math-teaching expert -- this is what I've seen with my kids as the two main problems of *only* emphasizing formal math.
Your kids don't really sound like they have either problem, so if they love it and are getting it I wouldn't see a problem. |
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Thank you very much, Willa, for that thorough explanation. (Thorough is always good for me. lol).
I believe my kids are getting the conceptualization. In our experience/observation, it seems that the Horizons K Math program kind of teaches the concept in a way that they can get it and understand. For example....teaching addition and subtraction first with the number lines. We also tended to use manipulatives along with the number lines, for them to get it in a visual/physical way. Also, the lessons on TENS and ONES. Has that not been your experience or observation?
My kids do really love math, and they are pretty fast with it. They do subtract by counting backwards, and/or using fingers though. But I can ask them "What is 17-4?" or "What is 67+6?" and they can come up with the answe mentally. They count forward or backward that many...you know? And I think the number line helped them learn that.
I do know that Horizons K Math is quite advanced, so if at any point next year (or even this year) they seem to be strtaing to struggle, I won't worry about just not going any further until all of the past concepts are understood. I was surprised myself at what Horizons is presenting already, but my kids have surprised me with what they seem to be getting fine.
Thanks for your input. I'm sure I'll observe even more so now keeping this in mind. I sure do not want them to struggle with math at any point because they never truly understood it, and I didn't realize it.
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Leonie
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Laura, several of my sons did formal Maths from about age 4 or 5 - simply because they wanted to! They saw older brothers with Maths books and wanted ones themselves.
Two of these sons are teens now and one is a 12 year old - they have had seasons of formal maths and seasons of Maths games and seasons of seemingly no Maths at all. But they all seem to grasp maths concepts easily and like maths and two have been doing formal Kumon Maths a few days a week for the last two years with ease and little help from me.
So, this is long winded way of saying that their early formal maths experiences were positive - the fact that they spent ages 4/5/6/ doing workbooks hasn't had any negative effect on them. I think it all depends on the child and on the situation...Sometimes, they didn't see a concept in the book,just did the work, but it came to them later, as though the book had suggested a concept and added something to their mental hammocks, and this was there to be picked up again when they had a mental light bulb moment.
Other sons didn't do any formal Maths till age 7 or so...
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mariB
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My 3 sons loved math and flew through it. My daughter...just did not get it. I had to scrap the math book and play games. We are in the middle of memorizing math facts.
I draw a triangle on the dry erase board...fill in the two numbers of the fact family and she fills in the missing number.
She miraculously did awesome when I offered an M&M per math fact filled in. She was having fun. I am not big on rewards usually because I think satisfaction on a job well done is the best reward. But I am trying to lift her spirits and to make math fun!
I just don't want her to hate math! So I will continue to be creative and scrap the books for a while...play games, read math stories, play store, count real money (she loves that)!
I see no sense in teaching her math concepts she just doesn't get.
Her math skills have greatly improved since September and that is what I look for.
We did use Developmental Math for awhile but still...the best thing right now for her is "playing" math with her:)
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LLR4
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Leoni....Thank you very much for sharing your experience with me. Because my kids love math so much, (and their workbooks), and are pretty fast with it, I think it's going well. I tend to believe that because they can do simple math facts in their heads, they are getting the concept.
MariB...I enjoyed your post here too. Especially with subjects a child does not like, and/or struggles with, making the learning FUN is a big help. It has their attention more, and they are more willing to want to do it. Almost like all of those sing song rhymes we learned as kids to help with math, language word identification, etc. I still use some of them.
But wow....I think with enough m&m's they could have brought out the genuis in me!!
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BlessedMommy
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| Posted: May 20 2008 at 9:28am | IP Logged
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Betsy wrote:
Also,this yahoo group is really good. It has a lot of information on math literature and other outside the box math information. I know you could ask all your questions there!
Betsy |
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Thanks for the link Betsy! 
I purchased a (cheap) K book curriculum for my 5yo bcz I thought I was supposed to since I did one with my 4 older ones. After joining the forum and learning more about Real Learning and Montessori I'll probably only supplement it and around 3rd grade....maybe. Math is my strong area and I plan to have fun with it rather than dumbing/boring it down.
Blessings
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Willa
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LLR4 wrote:
| For example....teaching addition and subtraction first with the number lines. We also tended to use manipulatives along with the number lines, for them to get it in a visual/physical way. Also, the lessons on TENS and ONES. Has that not been your experience or observation? |
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Yes, I liked the way it is done in the book. In my case, I have a very young Ker (just turned five) and a dev delayed 8 year old. I thought they needed more time in the smaller numbers. That's a judgment call -- kids mileage will vary so that was what I was trying to say -- to look at where they are.
Given more time, I could see the visuals being great for them and help them bridge in understanding.
I liked Leonie's point that sometimes workbooks and the like help lead into understanding. I think that is one reason I do have workbooks around the house, because it becomes one more way to do things and a lot of kids like workbooks and learn quite a bit from them.
Also that kids operate in stops and starts. I know you are not in this category, but in the classical education world I see parents with a precocious kid (usually their firstborn) who think that early ability means giftedness. When the child slows down they push because they have gotten invested in "acceleration", and frustration results.
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Willa
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LLR4
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| Posted: May 20 2008 at 11:26am | IP Logged
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Willa --- I was nodding 'yes' through your whole last post.
We do use a lot of workbooks around here, and use them thoroughly, because all 4 of my kids love them. But we also use many various other ways of learning. I have yet to classify what kind of schooler we are. I can say we're quite traditional with the books and curriculums, but we also do just about everything else, in addtion to the workbooks/curriculums.
I also see just what you mean about classical education/precocious kid/giftedness with early ability. The fact is.....I've heard of kids who aren't talking at a very very late age, and turns out it is BECAUSE THEY are gifted! So.
I know in our case, my kids are doing very well in K, and would venture to guess if they were tested they would be way above average for a kindergartener. But I don't have any reason to believe they are 'gifted'. I attribute it to the fact that a) Horizons is an advanced curriculum that had a very effective means of teaching concepts for MY kids, and b) my kids LOVE school, doing school work, and everything that goes with homeschooling. And although they may have small variances in their learning/strengths/weaknesses....it's just that they are different kids, despite that they are triplets. I know when I need to explain something in a different way to one or the other, for them to get it. But I don't see any learning disabilities /struggles yet. So all in all I've just been blessed so far. If at any point they are having a hard time, I will know they've been ahead in WHAT they have been learning anyway.....and we have a generous amount of time to not move forward, until all concepts are grasped, understood and are comfortable for them.
I hope I didn't take this thread way off track? (Sorry Lynn!). I just like discussing stuff like this (homeschooling/kids)and reading/considering/pondering others viewpoints and experiences. 
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~ Laura
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: No math curriculum for 6 yo?
