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Leonie
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Someone sent the quote below on an email list. It got me thinking – I often tend to shield my kids from suffering, from unpleasant things, from unpleasant situations and people, I try to make things easier for them. In searching for joy and smoothing things out ,do I do my kids a disservice?
Pope Benedict (from a recent audience): "Even
suffering is part of the truth of our life. Thus,
trying to shield the youngest from every
difficulty and experience of suffering, we risk
creating, despite our good intentions, fragile
persons of little generosity: The capacity to
love, in fact, corresponds to the
capacity to suffer, and to suffer together."
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Martha
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I would agree with the Pope.
In fact, my dh and I have long conversations about this.
I come from a very rough and hard childhood. Really no childhood at all.
So I have to balance the desire to give my children what I didn't have with the harsh reality that my past has made me who I am - not an entirely horrible person who seems to see things in a way others don't. A way I want my children to see things.
We tend to not hold anything back from them. But we don't hold back ourselves either. Blunt honesty is pretty much our 2nd motto. (1st is "Family takes care of family!") We listen to the radio and watch tv and read articles that I know others would be horrified over. But this is a part of the world we live in. If I want them to not be a part of it - I have to let them know why - I have to talk about it! I can't tell them to not sin and then not acknowledge the reality of sin in the world.
All that said, we really aren't big believers in extending childhood. I'm probably the only one on the board with that view. I don't think badly of those who do, we just fail to see any benefit to it.
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Philothea
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Martha wrote:
I would agree with the Pope.
In fact, my dh and I have long conversations about this.
I come from a very rough and hard childhood. Really no childhood at all.
So I have to balance the desire to give my children what I didn't have with the harsh reality that my past has made me who I am - not an entirely horrible person who seems to see things in a way others don't. A way I want my children to see things.
We tend to not hold anything back from them. But we don't hold back ourselves either. Blunt honesty is pretty much our 2nd motto. (1st is "Family takes care of family!") We listen to the radio and watch tv and read articles that I know others would be horrified over. But this is a part of the world we live in. If I want them to not be a part of it - I have to let them know why - I have to talk about it! I can't tell them to not sin and then not acknowledge the reality of sin in the world.
All that said, we really aren't big believers in extending childhood. I'm probably the only one on the board with that view. I don't think badly of those who do, we just fail to see any benefit to it. |
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You're not the only one with that view ... we share it.
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donnalynn
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JennGM
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It's a wonderful quote. I guess I look at it a bit differently than you, Martha. As far as seeing suffering in the world, I let our children see it -- to an extent. I'm not shielding, but give it in small pieces that he can not be overwhelmed at his age. There are different levels of development in a child.
But that being said, we also don't extend childhood. I don't protect my child from having to experience hunger or thirst, hardship of work, or getting hurt. We teach him the value of suffering, show the cross that Christ bore and how he is entering it. "Offer it up" is explained and used, even at a young age. We didn't hold back discussion and prayers about the sufferings of Christ during Lent and Holy Week, either.
I find there are many parents (I'm not saying here on this board, elsewhere) that "protect" the child from hurts -- no vaccines, no circumcision, for lack of better examples -- so the child won't have to deal with the pain. That's not a valid reason IMHO to keep the child from preventative measures. Sometimes it hurts to help -- like insulin or allergy shots prick, but they are to help the whole good.
We also don't shield from seeing or hearing about sick or dying in our circles.
Thanks for sharing the quote. It's a lot to think of, at so many levels.
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Cay Gibson
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Leonie,
I just read this quote on your blog and was glad to see you opened a discussion on it. Interesting topic.
We don't overtly shield our children either. Why? Because a friend shared with me once about being raised in a household with a grandmother who had had her legs amputated and how her mother worked as a nurse to support the family and her father suffered from depression. Years later she also received the gift of depression (the same depression she had condemned her father for having) and how she could look back and realize how much stronger she was and sympathetic and compassionate. She told me about all the graces she had received in her faith because of the reality of suffering.
At a recent park day, I heard another mother declare that shielding our boy from suffering makes them "weak".
Very interesting...
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donnalynn
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Martha
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donnalynn wrote:
| that by emphasizing everything that humans do wrong to each other or the planet or whatever... you run the risk of causing them to grow into a sort of apathy...a hopelessness..well everything is already screwed up...what can I do? |
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whoa there! Not shielding a child does not equal emphasizing the horrible in humans. Not at all. For example, on the WTM board there was a discussion about how many epople won't or don't like to tech modern history because it's too real, disturbing, and too close to our current lives. I disagree. I think such an attitude fosters the idea that, "those things only happened back then and could never happen now" - a very naive and dangerous concept imho. But I also don't think it has to be taught that way. The holocost was a terrible thing, but great beautiful souls shined during that time as well. Many good and brave people worked tirelessly and at great personal risk to stand in evils path. I think that's an awesome thing to teach my kids! But the meaning is very much lost if we don't know the evil they were fighting against and know just how ugly it is.
donna wrote:
Not sure what you mean when you say "extending childhood"? My 13 yo has shown me that children do grow and leave childhood!
I do believe children benefit from having a true childhood and in today's world I feel this takes a conscious effort.
When do you see the end of childhood? |
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I'm not sure I think there is such a thing. If there is, I think it is mostly ended by puberty. Historicly that was the case. The entire notion of being a teen or adolecence is actually a fairly new concept.
I'll take some examples in an effort o illustrate what I mean.
When I was 12 I regularly stayed home by myself for anywhere from a couple hours to an entire week. I was able to feed myself, keep the house running and fairly clean, go to school, and so forth. I often babysat newborn on up overnight or for an entire weekend. Often multiple children at once. (Made mighty fine $ too! Enough that I couldn't understand why everyone was nagging me to get a "job" when I turned 16!  )
Now, I wouldn't do that with my kids. Partly because I have sheltered them from such heavy obligations and partly because I deeply resented being raised by older siblings in my younger years and thus rarely allow my own dc to take on what I consider to be parental duties. (oh yes, we all arrive at parenting withour own hang-ups don't we?  )
By today's standards many would think I was abused and neglected, but historicly, my childhood would have been very normal and even expected. A 12 yr old girl would have absolutely been expected to maintain the home with or without parents and certainly to care for younger siblings like a second mother. Her education in the 4 Rs would have been farther advanced than is expected today. And the majority of that would have required much more heavy labor on her part than today's world of machine laundry and microwaves and such. A son would have those expectations plus be expected to do serious heavy labor - and heaven help him if he complained about it!
I guess my point is that society today seems to expect very little of older children. We talk about all the pressure they are under, but I really don't think they are. They just whine a lot more and seem very weak willed. For the most part, they have book work and sports, neither neccessarily arduous, and really very little other obligations. Some have chores, but even that is usually minimal. (I hesitate to say that making ones own bed shoudl even be called a chore!)
Now please don't think I'm bashing anyone on this board or elsewhere! I am not! As I said before, I am working on this issue just like the rest of you! If anything I'm at a disadvantage due to having grown up without the typical childhood. To me, I am constantly frustrated that none of my children are ready for what I was at their ages. I'm constantly questioning if I'm not letting them do something because I'm not ready or they are not ready and whether it matters if they are ready or not.
I guess I wonder why children (and many adults!) are so much less mature and capable than just 100 years ago and I seriously question the notion that it's a good thing. I mean, they may be taking longer to mature, but they aren't taking longer to hit puberty or to need to take on the obligations of adulthood. I also notice that they often seem to be more fearful and less willing to suffer. Many many things that were just a part of life (a good life at that) are now things to be avoided and considered sufferring.
It's very hard to put my thoughts on this in order in a way that makes sense to anyone other than me.
I'm not looking to CAUSE sufferring in my children. I don't think good parents ever did that. But I don't avoid it either. If something happens or is heard or seen, we talk about it honestly, deal with it head on, and move on in a no nonsense kind of way. I'm not a fan of sugar coating most of the time. If for no other reason than I usually don't have the time to add the sugar!
Anyways...
There's my very convoluted thoughts on the matter.
ETA: I guess I should say we do avoid some sufferring. I don't let any of them go to a public restroom alone because I don't want to risk a sicko preying on them. Like I said I'm constantly questioning...
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teachingmyown
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Well, I shelter here, just ask my 16 yr old!  Seriously, I do believe in sheltering my young children quite a bit. I would also make the distinction between evil and suffering. My children know very little about the evil in this world. They do know, though not first-hand, of the suffering of others. We pray for those who are sick, for those without food or in the middle of war-torn countries. They know about abortion, but I do not show them pictures. The know about Christ's Passion, but I do not show them the movie.
So Martha, we probably disagree to this extent. I do, however agree with giving responsibility and expecting more from our older kids than our culture would suggest. I don't necessarily do a good job at this, but in theory I agree.
My oldest is looking for a farm job for the summer. Last night we were talking about a farmer he worked for some last year. My son was amazed at this 70-something man who could throw hay faster than these young, strong teenage boys. I said that I was afraid that our country was running out of men like that, strong, responsible, and determined, and that there weren't more being raised to take their place.
I think the difference between a 12 yr old girl 100 years ago is that while she shouldered great responsibility, she was sheltered just by the mere fact that she was not bombarded by the media and immorality and evil at every turn. I could only wish for the same for my girls.
I hope this makes sense. The baby is crying!
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Philothea
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I think someone made this point already, but suffering and immorality are two different things ... immorality LEADS to suffering, but we focus on the suffering around here. The effects, not necessarily the cause. TO the extent we talk about the cause, it is in child-appropriate terms which will become more sophisticated as the children age (my kids are very young, but I take the same approach with my older nieces and nephews and also my CCD 4th graders). Every question gets an honest answer.
I don't sugar coat. They ask what abortion is, I tell them in blunt, but never graphic terms. They ask WHY anyone would do something so horrible, I give them some of the reasons. Inevitably it leads to them thinking through the issue on their own and coming up with better solutions (in the case of abortion, they usually come to the conclusion that adoption is the better way if one cannot raise the baby they've been blessed with, and further, that one should be married before making babies).
I think it's important to be real with our kids. The world has a lot of ugliness in it. There is also much beauty. It's important to let them be exposed to both while they are still under the influence of our teaching, so they can recognize both ... and choose beauty.
This is jumbled and the baby woke up, so I have to go. Interesting discussion, I'll be back.
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Cay Gibson
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teachingmyown wrote:
| I would also make the distinction between evil and suffering. |
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True, Molly. There's a pronounced difference between the two and a good point to make.
Evil is freely chosen.
Suffering is usually not.
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Cay Gibson
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lapazfarm
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We also need to be careful to remember that not every child of the past was a Laura Ingals or an Oliver Twist. The poor have always worked hard and the wealthy have always been relatively spared this type of labor. Well-to-do children of 100 years ago did not work the field, lift heavy loads, or tend small children any more than our children do now. Affluence spared them this burden and in fact, it would have been unheard of for a young gentleman to do manual labor or for a young lady to dirty her hands with menial tasks.
But that does not mean they did not know suffering.They still had family members die of influenza and fathers or brothers go off to war and never return. They saw the poor in the streets and the sick and the disabled.
And the truth is that most great leaders of the past (think founding fathers) came from this affluent kind of background, as did most religious. And many of these were great, kind, compassionate men (and women). So it is not necessarily true that hard physical work or the shouldering of great responsibility at young ages is necessary to be a great person.
So, what is it that makes a man (ex, Thomas Jefferson) who may have never experienced real suffering himself, such an advocate for the poor and downtrodden? How is it that he can be so sympathetic to the sufferings of those around him while never having experienced it himself?
How is it that a rich man like St Francis fo Assisi can have such empathy for the poor that he became one of them willingly?
I don't have an answer to that, but I would think that it has much to do with Christ and his suffering, and uniting oneself to that.
Any ideas on that?
Lots to ponder, really.
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Cay Gibson
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Another case of a child w/ pink eye  making me run to the doctor but I couldn't go without saying these are excellent thoughts and ideas to ponder, Theresa.
Excellent! 
No time to write but I'll have lots of time to "ponder" in the waiting room  and I hope to have lots of good thoughts and ideas to read when I get home.
Great topic, Leonie.
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Cay Gibson
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stefoodie
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I love this topic, Leonie. Been thinking about it a lot lately and talking to my 9-yo also. He's the one who suffers the most from eczema and related stuff.
While we try to shield our children from suffering, there are just some things that we cannot shield them from no matter what we do -- this eczema thing is the primary example in our family. You can only do so much to control it. In the end you need to find redemptive value in it, maybe even look forward to suffering. No more time to write longer, but yes, I have often pondered on how this skin disorder has brought our family closer together, because of the many many times we have had to love each other through it.
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stefoodie
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I just remembered something else. When "outsiders" think about us "shielding our children" they often think of us being over protective and coddling our kids too much -- but more often than not they think of it in terms of SOCIALIZATION, as if by keeping our children in our homes they are SUFFERING because of it. This thread just highlights for me how different we see things here.
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CrunchyMom
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Theresa, I like what you wrote a lot!
This is such a fascinating topic to think about.
At first, I was thinking I want to extend childhood, but I think maybe it can vary about what childhood is and what is it about childhood I think the world today is attacking.
I think that the world attacks the innocence of childhood, and I want to preserve that aspect of it very much. I want my children to enjoy imaginative play and pursuits instead of being pressured, as it seems the world does, to having boyfriends, girlfriends, and the whole "tween" culture our society pushes.
I will look for the quote, but I was reading somewhere about CS Lewis and his views on shielding children from suffering. If you look at Narnia, for example, the characters definitely suffer, children are presented with the reality of war, death, sickness, etc..., but it is not overly graphic or explicit when dealing with immorality.
My almost four year old's favorite movie is The Battle of Britain. We feel that a lot of the older war movies give our boys that outlet for adventure and heroism in a *real* way that isn't as graphic as the modern depictions. Ironically, many who would criticize this decision, it seems, would also allow their children to watch "safe" things that I don't really care for my children to see. However, we find that it is in watching these "safe (to us)" war movies we have opportunities to discuss the reality of war, suffering, and death.
So, while I heavily shield my children from many things that are acceptable in the eyes of the world, I expose them to other things that may not seem appropriate in the eyes of the world for a 3 year old.
Even though I strongly believe in filtering the world to protect their innocence, and I suppose, "extend" the childhood of my children, I don't feel like I am shielding them from disappointment or suffering. Rather, I think I am ensuring they experience these things in the way I think will best shape their character.
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lapazfarm
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I think there is a distinct difference between "extending" childhood and "preserving" it. Extending implies prolonging childhood beyond the appropriate length of time (whatever that may be) while preservation implies protecting childhhood from premature loss.
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Theresa
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lapazfarm
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btw, does anyone have a source for the Pope's quote in context?
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Kath
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Here is the audience the quote was taken from:
A More Favorable Context for Education
(I don't know how to make a link.)
The quote is about halfway down, the 9th paragraph, but it seems to be a bit different translation.
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JennGM
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Kath wrote:
Here is the audience the quote was taken from:
A More Favorable Context for Education
(I don't know how to make a link.)
The quote is about halfway down, the 9th paragraph, but it seems to be a bit different translation. |
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Just being a link fairy today. I fixed it for you, Kath.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Suffering?
