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meldogsun
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| Posted: April 18 2008 at 10:38pm | IP Logged
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Hey, there! Newbie here...
I have been researching for a number of months about the type of homeschooling that we'd like to do for our almost 4yog and almost 2yob and have been personally drawn to an eclectic mix of Charlotte Mason, unit studies, with a touch of the Classical (Latin for the sake of a broad vocabulary and breaking down words). I also value the "better late than early" and "relaxed" approach as well.
However, I just went to a Classical Conversations seminar recently and they start with 4 year olds and though I'm drawn to the group gatherings and can't argue with the history of how this type of learning seems to work, I still feel unsettled about the idea of stuffing kids with tons of information when they don't totally understand it. The video on their website of a 10 year old rattling off all the Presidents' names and the history timeline wasn't impressive to me. She seemed robotic.
Anyway, I just want to hear from the critics of Classical education. What's the downside to memory work, flash cards, etc.? Is it for everyone, or just certain learning styles? Is the "grammar, logic, rhetoric" model as universal as they say, or is it the learning perspective of dead white men? Is it valuable to learn just Latin vocabulary rather than the entire language? They seem to value mostly "parts to whole" learning but what about learning the whole and then deconstructing the parts? Is it possible to be a "relaxed Classical homeschool educator?" Any other thoughts?
I don't naturally desire to drill my 4 year old with flashcards everyday, but if it's a valuable part of the learning process and she will enjoy it as much as they say then I'm open to it.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
=), melanie from DC
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: April 19 2008 at 7:33am | IP Logged
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Is it really historical for a Classical education to start at 4? I can't really imagine that. Formally educating a 4 year old seems a very modern idea to me.
I think the idea, at least as Laura Berquist describes it, is that the very young are like sponges. They will rattle off whatever it is they are exposed to; so, you may as well expose them to useful or good things as opposed to having them remember the jingle from the cereal commercial their whole life.
However, I'm not sure force feeding a lot of stuff is the idea either. The number one goal of a truly Classical education is to form a person with a beautiful soul and a formed conscious with the ability to reason.
I think what you are describing is exactly what Charlotte Mason was fighting against; though, her techniques do seem to share a lot of the big picture goals with Classical. I'm pretty sure that most of the ladies on this forum, from what I've gleaned, would be opposed to drilling a 4 year old with flashcards (unless they were weird and liked it, lol).
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Sarah M
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| Posted: April 19 2008 at 9:19am | IP Logged
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Hmmmm... I guess my biggest bone to pick with the classical early stages is precisely that they do so much memory work. It seems like too much intellectualizing at too young of an age. Children have a great need to learn through their senses, to experience nature for the sheer joy of it, to hear great stories but not be required to rattle off things they have no capacity to understand yet... the memory work you are describing (like the presidents names, etc) would have no meaning for a child.
I have read The Well Trained Mind, but I was put off by what I saw as a kind of disrespect for the young child's way of being in the world: Her need to experience everything through her senses, to conjure up her own motivations for learning, for imaginitive and free, creative play. I do understand what they mean by small children being sponges, but I would rather them soak up nature, stories, snuggle time, art, and music than facts about things they don't understand. And I understand these things have a place in classical education, too- I just don't like the memory work part, that's all.
That's just my take  , but I swing pretty far the other way (whole to parts, play-based learning, and definitely better late than early), so...
I know several homeschoolers who classical-ed their kids and they are perfectly delightful to be around- quite well-rounded and creative and well-formed. So... there you have it .
Blessings!
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LisaR
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| Posted: April 19 2008 at 10:35am | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I think the idea, at least as Laura Berquist describes it, is that the very young are like sponges. They will rattle off whatever it is they are exposed to; so, you may as well expose them to useful or good things as opposed to having them remember the jingle from the cereal commercial their whole life.
However, I'm not sure force feeding a lot of stuff is the idea either. |
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My HIGHLY distractable 5 y/o son recently had an opportunity to attend a Classical Conversations day. actually my 8 y/o did also ,but I was particularly attuned to Dominic, who literally does't sit still. He does any "work" under a desk, or upside down off the couch, or in the company of numerous playmobil "guys" that are his constant companions. to my GREAT surprise Dominic was very stimulated and engaged the entire time. The kids were free to move a bit as they recited latin verbs and verses, he loved the map work on the floor and all touchable, the hands on science experiment and art project was so three dimensional and he was able to sit stand, crawl, throughout the 3!!! hours.
needless to say, we joined up with a new CC gorup here in town (all Catholic, which is a wonderful plus!).
At least a few times per week both of my kids ask when the "memory co-op" is starting back up again.
I bought some of the timeline cards (very colorful, large sized with classic illustrations)and I have let the 8 and 5 y/o "work" with them. They line them up like a train and go over and over them, unprompted by me at all!
I am sure it is not a "perfect" method, but I believe in what works for the child's learning style. I don;t care if it was called ABC conversations, it seems to be a great fit for my two very active learners. they are seeing, touching, saying, and hearing, all at the same time, and, imho, that works well in a larger group setting than at home....
oh, and we as Catholics memorize so much without "knowing" the fullness of what it means. I STILL meditate occasionally on the Our Father, and as a 4 y/o, I "knew" the prayer, but sure did not KNOW it, kwim???
I figure it is 3 hours per week, what a boost to our homeschool.
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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| Posted: April 19 2008 at 10:42am | IP Logged
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PS, I am certain, after 11 years of homeschooling, I can safely label myself as a "relaxed" homeschooler, but nothing else. I've tried Charlotte Mason, Unschooling, Montessori, Liturature based, Classical (a'la MODG and Kolbe), and traditional like Seton.
Even what I need as a teacher or what an individual child might need from year to year varies so much. I look at any of these methods simply as tools to help us along, and I pick and choose what out of those methods might be of greatest help. So I never thought "if I "do" Classical Conversations than I will have to BE a Classical homeschooler," kwim? I'm just joining up for the great experience it will be for me and the kids...
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Natalia
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| Posted: April 19 2008 at 11:19am | IP Logged
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We just finished our first year with Classical Conversations. My youngest just turned 6 so I have no experience with Classical Education starting as early as 4. I have been amazed though at his ability to memorize but, more amazed at the connections he has been able to make. I think memorizing at an early age can help to train the mind to retain and also it facilitates deeper learning because you somehow already have a peg to hang the knowledge on.
I think you can make CC as rigorous or flexible as you like. You can also flesh out the memorization as much or as little as you want. To me, and I don't know how "classical" my opinion is, the advantage of memorization is the training to retain even if you don't do Classical Education. I have always thought that it was important to have my kids memorize information but never knew what to have them memorize or was never consistent enough to get anywhere with the memorization. CC has provided structure to our memorization. It has also provided data to memorize across the curriculum.
I do not consider myself a classical homeschooler but I have found CC extremely helpful to our homeschooling. It has added that touch of Classical that I have wanted and wasn't consistent enough to get.
Natalia
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JuliaT
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| Posted: April 19 2008 at 3:04pm | IP Logged
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I consider our homeschool one that follows the CE philosophy with a smattering of CM and Waldorf to flesh it all out. Compared to other CE families that I know, we would be considered relaxed. We do not use very many workbooks. I use more living educational methods to teach my children, but I still consider that they are getting a CE.
The definition of a traditional classical education is the acquiring of wisdom and virtue by filling our souls with all that is good, beautiful and true. There is a focus on grammar, logic and rhetoric as well as math. I have read quite a bit on traditional classical and I do not believe that, historically, the trivium was meant as ages or stages of a children's academic life. The Trivium refers to the subjects that should be focused on during the child's time of learning.
The Trivium as ages and stages were attained from a Dorothy Sayers essay. From what I have read, Sayers, herself, did not say that the Trivium is ages/stages but someone twisted her words into meaning this. Hence, the birth of the neo-classical method (WTM and Teaching the Trivium.)
I believe that the traditional classical method is more in keeping with CM. The big difference I see between the two is that CE depends on mentoring as the teaching method whereas CM advocates the child makes the connections on his own.
I do not see the use of memorizing useless lists of Pharoahs, Presidents, etc. These lists are floating unanchored in a child's brain. I think that a child needs the stories of famous people of the amazing things they have accomplished, of their personal strengths and weakneeses, rather than lists of names and dates.
Memorization does have a place in our learning day. We memorize Scripture and poetry. Now, that we have begun Grammar, we are memorizing parts of speech as well. When my children begin Latin in Gr.5 or 6, they will memorize declensions, etc. Their is a place for memorization but I don't think it is in memorizing lists and facts.
I could go on and on because I feel very passionate about this subject. I just finished writing a 7 part series on CE on my blog. After writing this all out, I feel even stronger that what we are doing is, indeed, CE. I may not be doing the 'drill'n'kill' thing but my children are learning a great deal. This was made evident to me yesterday as my 8 yr. old struck up a conversation with a ps'ed 17 yr. old boy about Shakespeare. She held her own in this conversation and impressed the teenager. This is what I want for my children: to be able to express themselves in a logical, articulate manner. I believe that this can be done without the filling up of dates and lists.
For some reason, I can never post links on this board so if you are interested in reading my blog, you can cut and paste it.
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Juliainsk
Blessings
Julia
mom of 3 (8,7,5)
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Willa
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| Posted: April 19 2008 at 4:02pm | IP Logged
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JuliaT wrote:
The Trivium as ages and stages were attained from a Dorothy Sayers essay. From what I have read, Sayers, herself, did not say that the Trivium is ages/stages but someone twisted her words into meaning this. Hence, the birth of the neo-classical method (WTM and Teaching the Trivium.)
I believe that the traditional classical method is more in keeping with CM. The big difference I see between the two is that CE depends on mentoring as the teaching method whereas CM advocates the child makes the connections on his own.
I do not see the use of memorizing useless lists of Pharoahs, Presidents, etc. These lists are floating unanchored in a child's brain. I think that a child needs the stories of famous people of the amazing things they have accomplished, of their personal strengths and weakneeses, rather than lists of names and dates. |
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I could have quoted your whole post, Julia, and hardly can think of anything to add to it, but this part especially stood out. I loved the ideas of classical education when I first heard about it, and I do think Dorothy Sayers "stages" have psychological validity, but I think that the first CEers took some of her ideas out of context. For example, she wrote about how absorbent a young child's mind is, and how syllables enchant them without a necessity of full understanding. She wasn't recommending filling up the child's head with meaningless factoids but with beautiful words and language that would be pleasant to them immediately and also be fruitful in later years.
It's very true that CM emphasizes letting the child do the work and CE tends to put more emphasis on the teacher's role but I do think it equals out in the actual doing. That is because CE (at least the Ignatian tradition that I know the best) emphasized that the child had the primary role and that the result of education ought to be someone who could act and think for himself or herself. This is very similar to what CM advocated; but I think she worked with teachers and mothers, who if inexperienced with children might think that their role as teachers must be always an active one, and so she explicitly warned against taking too big of a part.
I don't think the older CE sources needed to warn so much about this because it wasn't until later in history (about the Enlightenment period) that the concept of the child's mind as "blank slate" or "empty sac" came strongly into educational philosophy. Teachers started thinking that they had to do everything for the kids, and education became more information -based -- "fill the vessel" or instill habits behavoristically -- rather than "light the fire". SO Charlotte Mason, seeing the problems with this approach in her time, wrote specifically about that issue more than educators in earlier times had.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Classical criticism, please
