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Syncletica
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| Posted: March 31 2008 at 4:21pm | IP Logged
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My 5 year old has manifested an insistence to lie and steal. Earlier today he took a Halls without asking. At first he wouldn't tell me where he got it from. I made him throw it away and said no treats/dessert at all today for punishment. Later on he took another one without asking, and I made him throw it away. Just a little while ago, it was brought to my attention that he had something in his mouth. It smelled like Halls. All that was left was some crushed red Halls in his teeth. He wouldn't tell me what he took.
"Did you take that Halls out of the garbage and eat it?"
"No."
"Go to the garbage and find me that Halls then."
"But it's yucky in there."
He brought the garbage to me and we 'couldn't' find it.
"Did you take it out of here?"
"No."
"Do not lie to me. Did you take it out?"
"No."
"Okay. Go get a grocery bag and take all of this garbage out and transfer it to the grocery bag. And if it's not there you're in big trouble. The other option is to tell me truth about if you took it."
"I took it."
So, I have an accomplished and sneaky liar and thief on
my hands.
Does anyone have any methods they've used successfully in dealing with similar issues? This is not the first time he's lied to me or taken things he shouldn't have.
TIA.
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: March 31 2008 at 4:40pm | IP Logged
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I wonder if this is a five-year-old thing. Mine has been telling lots of lies lately, too. The difference is that mine can not sit on a lie for very long before she feels compelled to confess it. She also "forgets" that she did something. Sometimes I think that she has completely convinced herself that she really did not do something even when there is evidence to the contrary to where she honestly does not believe that she is telling a lie about doing it. (It's kind of like how she used to start out joking about monsters in the closet but then she would start getting herself really worked up and upset about it.)
I'd be interested to hear other people's takes on this.
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Barbara
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PDyer
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| Posted: March 31 2008 at 4:49pm | IP Logged
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Barbara C. wrote:
| I wonder if this is a five-year-old thing...Sometimes I think that she has completely convinced herself that she really did not do something even when there is evidence to the contrary to where she honestly does not believe that she is telling a lie about doing it. |
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This has also been my experience. I think it's a developmental stage.
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Patty
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JodieLyn
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I would have started entirely differently and come down as hard as possible on the offense.. because for me it's not "taking a treat without permission" but rather getting into medication. And I come down as hard on them getting something that they could have if they went through me (vit. C for instance) as I would if they had something truly dangerous.
And I would be sure to enlighten them on the further consequences of taking medication without checking with mom.. such as trips to the ER, having their stomach pumped, and even death because they wanted that pill or whatever it was.. that not everything that someone else might take would be safe for them to take. And yep, I would do this and send them into tears because it's so very important to me that this is a line that is not crossed.
We even go a bit further than that for instance my 11 yr might get permission to get herself something.. but she may not give any other kids the meds even with my permission for them to have it.. she can help by bringing it to me is all.. even if she could get it out and give the proper dose. Comes back to that you only take the medications that mom or dad give you.
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Syncletica
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| Posted: March 31 2008 at 5:21pm | IP Logged
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I actually had told him that they were not candy but medicine,...and usually I do come down hard. (He's in tears.) He actually attempted to steal some chocolate wafers from Nutters' one time. I paid for them and had them throw them away and explained to him the seriousness of shoplifting.
He usually gets spanked for his lying. This time I'm wondering if there's something else. I've heard of someone realizing their child was an accomplished liar and b/c she didn't know what else to do, she had him come to her at noon everyday for 7 days and receive 7 spanks. By the end of it, he finally said, "I hate lying mom. If lying is that bad then I'm not going to do it anymore."
I know I was thoroughly spanked for getting into niacin and lying about it. I never forgot that punishment, and never lied again.
I know it's not something to take lightly. A serious spanking here to avert hell punishment hereafter, is much more desirable.
I just haven't gotten through to him yet.
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folklaur
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| Posted: March 31 2008 at 5:56pm | IP Logged
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Syncletica wrote:
| she had him come to her at noon everyday for 7 days and receive 7 spanks. |
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Do you really mean that she spanked him everyday whether he did something wrong on not? Or that she continued to hit her child day after day for a previous offense that happened days before???
I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.
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KackyK
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| Posted: March 31 2008 at 8:02pm | IP Logged
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Going back to why he might be lying...
A dear more wiser friend than I said that kids this age, before they get to FHC age really, have a different "motive" for lying. In fact, she believes they don't always have a motive (meaning purposefully trying to deceive). They are telling us what they wish were true. That somewhere inside they are sorry, but they can't really express it well, or are afraid to at first. Then they go for what they "wish" were true.
My 6 yold is the same way. Mine has been taking his sibling's things (most especially any candy they have) and then lying about that. Finally, I just told him, that what he was doing was against God's laws and if continued to do that, and wasn't sorry and didn't ask forgiveness, he'd go to hell, a terrible place. I explained too he wouldn't see Jesus, or any of his siblings and parents (presuming we make it to heaven!). I also reminded him of our miscarried babies (he loves babies!) and that they were in heaven praying he'd be good. (I really went for the emotion this time!)
Well, about 10 minutes later, he came into my room, very sorrowful looking and said he had been praying to God to forgive him. The first time he has ever said or I assume done such a thing. Since then he has turned his behavior...so I hope it continues to stick!
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Syncletica
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| Posted: March 31 2008 at 8:54pm | IP Logged
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Oh! That's wonderful, KackyK! What does FHC mean, though?
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jenk
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I had the same issue with my oldest when he was younger- only the biggest issue was on whether or not he'd brushed his teeth. He's getting ready to turn 13 this week and while I can't say he *never* lies, he is much better and fesses up right away most of the time. We've had infinite discussions on trust and owning up to "mistakes" and he is much more likely now than when he was 5, 6 and even 7 to tell the truth right away- even if he faces bad consequences because of it. He used to agonize over having done the wrong thing (he really wants to please us) and over being punished. Many times the only "punishment" he'd receive for a known infraction was hearing, "Please don't do that again", but the anticipation of being in trouble was enough to encourage him to lie. I think his growing maturity and our consistency has made a difference... that, and a lot of prayer! I recently saw an article that suggested reading things like the story of George Washington and the Cherry Tree.
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: March 31 2008 at 9:23pm | IP Logged
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FHC=First Holy Communion
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Barbara
Mom to "spirited" dd(9), "spunky" dd (6), "sincere" dd (3), "sweet" dd (2), and baby girl #5 born 8/1/12!!
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Syncletica
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| Posted: March 31 2008 at 9:37pm | IP Logged
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Oh, gosh. DUH! (FHC)
jenk - I've got that story in a book called "The Book of Virtues for Young People" by William J. Bennett. There's a number of other stories as well that are great for teaching character. Unfortunately, they're still somewhat above my 5 year olds comprehension level. What I did tonight before bed was read 2 books in Joy Berry's "Help Me Be Good" series - on lying and stealing. I keep forgetting to use them to aid in getting them to understand good behaviour.
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Angie Mc
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Here's a link that gives developmental guidelines that may help to put things into perspective. You'll notice that age 5 is transitional. Hope this helps.
We've done well with more gentle approaches to lying and stealing. At age five (and older to include teens) I will give 3 chances for a child to tell the truth, because often they will lie initially on impulse. The second time I ask, I give more information as to why I believe they lied. I explain that I want to believe them because we need to be able to believe each other. I describe in an objective way what I'm seeing and ask them to explain. The third time, I warn them that I'm going to ask them again....give a big ole pause...then ask. If they lie the third time I say, "It is your job to tell the truth. It is my job to believe you" and I walk away. From here, usually within 24 hours, I get a confession. Oh...this routine has helped me to not jump to conclusions too. There have been times when I really thought a child was guilty, only to find out that I was wrong.
As for the medications and medication-like substances - we lock them up because it is our responsibility to protect our children from dangerous substances. This is a legal requirement for foster families and may be worth considering.
Good night!
Love,
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Angie Mc
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Rachel May
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At this stage we don't give the kids the opportunity to lie and develop it as a habit. If we are fairly sure that they did something they shouldn't, we do not ask them if they did it. We go straight to why the behavior is wrong and discipline for that. Once they are older, then we start asking and give them the chance to tell the circumstances and ask for forgiveness.
In the occasional situation where lying comes up outside of covering up for a wrong behavior, we use the soap in the mouth method.
Quote:
| So, I have an accomplished and sneaky liar and thief on my hands. |
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I KNOW it's hard, but try not to take it personally. Building your relationship gently now will serve you well later when you have bigger fish to fry. 
ETA: We are dealing with this with Charles more frequently right now as the birth of the new baby approaches. He's an internalizer when it comes to emotions. I'm trying to give him a little more individual positive attention--dates, reading and snuggling, bedtime songs--to help him feel more secure and less in need of negative attention. Poor guy does get lost in the middle.
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JennGM
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Rachel May wrote:
At this stage we don't give the kids the opportunity to lie and develop it as a habit. If we are fairly sure that they did something they shouldn't, we do not ask them if they did it. We go straight to why the behavior is wrong and discipline for that. Once they are older, then we start asking and give them the chance to tell the circumstances and ask for forgiveness.
In the occasional situation where lying comes up outside of covering up for a wrong behavior, we use the soap in the mouth method.
Quote:
| So, I have an accomplished and sneaky liar and thief on my hands. |
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Very wise, Rachel.
But...will you stop posting and go have that baby????!!!!!!! 
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: April 01 2008 at 11:41am | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
Rachel May wrote:
At this stage we don't give the kids the opportunity to lie and develop it as a habit. If we are fairly sure that they did something they shouldn't, we do not ask them if they did it. We go straight to why the behavior is wrong and discipline for that. Once they are older, then we start asking and give them the chance to tell the circumstances and ask for forgiveness.
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Very wise, Rachel.
But...will you stop posting and go have that baby????!!!!!!! |
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Yes! This preventive measure comes before our "3 chances." This honest and straight forward approach goes for everyone in the family. As a young person I can remember watching adults "set up" children and other adults to lie by not being forthcoming about information they have under the guise of "giving a chance to come clean." Instead of saying, "I saw you smoking outside of school today when I was driving to the store," they would say, "So, how was school today? What did you do after school today? Your clothes smell strange, what is that smell?..."
I think what makes the age of 5 a tricky one is because the child is in a transitional time. They are not quite a young child and they are ever inching closer to the age of reason. As moms who take our vocation seriously, we want so badly for our young child to be well-behaved. Patience, relationship building, and parenting tools that will help well into the future, have been most helpful for us during this transition.
OK...now go have your sweet baby, Rachel  .
Love,
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Angie Mc
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Maryan
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We do what Rachel does...
Sometimes this advice isn't possible with lots of kids and trying to determine who did what... but as Rachel said, it works when they've been caught red handed.
And I feel foolish when I still revert to accusing obvious acts. I mean honestly... if they've got the cookie in their mouth, do I need to ask, "Do you have a cookie in your mouth?"  And then they are not so bright as to say, "No"???? I should be able to smell chocolate a mile away. Truly, it is like setting them up for a double whammy when I ask them if they were disobedient.
I also like to make sure we are reading moral tales of what happens when you lie or steal (Pinnochio, The Boy who cried wolf, etc....) I only see the fruits of these tales starting at age five, but not younger. But I still read them to the youngers!!
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: April 01 2008 at 11:50am | IP Logged
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Maryan wrote:
| I should be able to smell chocolate a mile away. |
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I can't get the above link for "age of reason" to work so here it is to cut and paste if you would like to check it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_reason_(canon_law)
Love,
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Angie Mc
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SallyT
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Another good book dealing with lying, specifically, but also the blessedness of confessing: Edith and Mr. Bear, by Dare Wright. It's a children's picture book, a very sweet and gentle but TRUE story about a child (actually a doll) lying to cover up something she's done, and the consequences which follow. It's what I've used to help my young children understand what lying is, and how wonderful it is to be able to confess a sin and tell the truth.
Sally
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CAgirl4God
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when my Nugget was in her stealing phase, I made her go back in to the store (even if I had to drive her back there...) and return what she took to the manager (I would talk to them ahead of time.) then she would apologize, return the item.
once she stole something from the zoo store.
we did the above. I took her to talk to the priest. then she picked up trash at the zoo for an hour.
she hasn't stole since....
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dawn2006
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I like the idea of just skipping the questioning altogether when you already know they've done the bad thing. I always think it's like 'leading them into temptation', no? In the Our Father we pray for God not to do that to us.
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Dawn Farias | wife to Ariel | mom to Gabriel 9, Daniel 7, Elizabeth 5, and Michael 3 | blogger at Be Absorbed | native Texan but currently living near Seattle
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: consequences for stealing/lying?
