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Mary G
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I went to my 16yos' school the other night for Jr/Parent College night. Much of the talk centered around how parents deal with letting their kids go, etc. But one thing that kept coming up was the fact that the kids have to carefully choose their college so as not to waste their parents' money.
Both my dh and I paid our ways thru college (and grad schools -- dh has a PhD, an MTS and is now working on a licentiate in prep for PhD in bioethics, I have an MBA). We have always told our kids that we would help out, but that since it's their education, they need to have ownership thru paying the bulk of the expenses -- thru obtaining scholarships, financial aid, and/or loans.
Are we crazy to think this way?
It really seems as though, at least among all the parents at Joe's school, that they assume their footing the whole bill.........
What do y'all think/do? Those who have college kids, how do you handle this, especially if you have others "waiting in the wings" to go off to college?
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
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dhbrug
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We have absolutely no intention of paying for the children's college/university education. Our preferred plan is for the children to work first and study part time, obtaining real world experience. The money they save can pay their way. Part time/night school can be covered easier, and also provides a good contrast between reality and the artificial and transitory university life.
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David
http://bruggietales.blogspot.com
dw Lana 89, dd 91, ds 93, ds 96, ds 98, dd 01, dd 04, ds 07
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Erica Sanchez
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I love your plan, David! In addition to some financial aid, I worked all my college years to pay for things. I think my parents paid for my car insurance as long as I kept a certain grade point average. I had plenty of friends whose parents paid for everything and I know the argument can be made that in return those students only had to concentrate on school (more time for studying, etc.). Even though it took me 5 years to gradutate, I value the experiences and people that came my way as a result of the many part-time jobs I had. These helped me far greater than the stupid classes I took. It always makes me chuckle when people say, in response to the number of children we have, 'how will you pay for college'!
A related question would be how many of you have savings accounts for each child? We know people, Catholic homeschoolers, who have huge accounts going for college and such. We've not done that.....yet. We live fairly well and don't have to live on a budget really, but, selfishly, I'd rather spend our extra money on adventures (vacations, field trips, museum passes). Then I wonder......but then it goes back to what David said and I am temporarily reassured that everything will be O.K.
This is a great question, Mary! Even for those of us for whom college is a long way off.......
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Laura
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They will be paying their own way.
Paying it for them isn't even an option with a large family.
Sadly, this is often what keeps some parents from having more then 1 or 2 kids. They want to pay for their college and provide the latest and greatest gadgets for them. Basically, they want to keep up with the Jones'. They sincerely look at large families with disgust because we are not able to do these things.
I think that even if we had a smaller family we would still opt to have them pay their way through college.
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JMJ,
Laura
wife to Ken and mom to 8 blessings with #9 due July 26,2009
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dhbrug
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We have a savings account for the childreen, but it using their money. 1/3rd of all pocket money and other income goes to a savings account. Also, once they start working (but still living at home) they will pass across all their money into the family pool, a % is taken off for board and meals, some they get for spending, the rest is put into savings. In that way they learn how quickly savings builds up and they develop the habit early.
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David
http://bruggietales.blogspot.com
dw Lana 89, dd 91, ds 93, ds 96, ds 98, dd 01, dd 04, ds 07
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tovlo4801
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I'm glad to hear this. We don't live extravagantly here and God has capped us at two children, so we don't have large family issues. Yet we have no savings for anything. As my oldest moves toward teen years I feel more and more guilty. My dh insisted that we do a shorter term mortgage when we bought our house and it will be paid for by the time our second one goes to college leaving money to help out then, but there won't be anything for our oldest.
I agree that the environment seems to be that it's just expected that parents pay for school. My dh and I paid for our own school by working part-time and financial aid, but we went to a small state school and both of our parents were in failing businesses at the time so we got lots of grants. I guess I was just going on the assumption that if my kids wanted to go to a school better than a small state school, financial aid and part-time work would not cover the total. Will it?
As for the benefits of part-time work, I'll say this. I worked in business office environments all through college. I did order processing for several years, was the main organizer of the college's new student orientation for several years and then processed alumni gifts for my final year of college. When I was hired at a prestigious accounting firm after graduating, I needed to go out in the field and evaluate companies finacial records. My co-workers from much better schools were flabbergasted that I could figure out the spreadsheets. I had such an advantage! We'd get printouts from the company and I'd understand completely where the numbers came from because I'd been creating them for years. My co-workers went to better schools, but had never had to work with acutual information until they were on the job. All their classwork was silly problems with outdated ledger books that no one really uses. I've always said that I was a much better employee out of college for having been an employee in college.
The down-side is that a working college student has three realms in their life: social, work and studies. I found it very difficult to have a handle on more than two of them at any time. For the first couple years of college the work and social won out. After I began to focus on my studies, my social life completely withered. My college life was what it was, but I think that the need to sacrifice either social or studies can be a difficulty when you have to include a work realm.
Curious to hear what others have to say.
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Mary G
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Richelle:
I too worked -- as soon as I was 16, I worked every summer downtown San Fran in offices (temp work) that paid pretty well -- the money went to help pay for my private high school (there are 7 of us, all a year apart, we all went to Catholic schools and my mom stayed home with us -- so it was pretty tight all the time) and some spending $. When I went to college, I worked part-time (maybe 15 hours per week), had loans and scholarships and my parents helped a small bit.
But like you, when I got out I had a great resume and really benefitted from all this working....so I guess it's a trade-off. My on campus job didn't ruin my social life as I was at a school where lots of kids worked on campus so we "played" late -- didn't sleep much, but we did have a social life.
I'm so glad to hear so many folks are in our camp. I was beginning to think i was crazy. My dear SIL just sent her daughter off to college -- they did the same thing with the "it's your schooling, you need to own and therefore pay for it"....
Seems like you get so much more out of the years you spend (even if you have to take longer due to work commitments, etc) than those who have it all paid for....
Blessings to one and all
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MaryG
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Martha
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Nope! I will help them. They can live at home, work p/t, go local for at least the first bit, etc... But I will NOT be giving them carte blanche (sp?). We will help them a good deal though and expect them to also help the kids below them as they come up the ranks.
I knew a family back in the day with 12 dc and the parents paid full for the 1st and then he paid the kid comming up below him, etc... Everyone pitched in that way and felt a huge burden of obligation not to throw their chance away. Don't know it I could do that, but it worked for that family. All 12 got at least a BA without a single student loan! (course there weren't as many loan option then, but still.)
Martha
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Martha
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cswini
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I have a 19 year-old who attends a public university on a large scholarship (very smart kid), but there are still significant expenses left to pay. We made him be realistic about his choice of school as we didn't want him to have crushing debt on graduation. Gone are the days when a kid could make much of a dent paying for college with part-time and summer work. An excellent education can be had for a "reasonable" cost at state and other public universities. Kids have no concept what a burden large student loans can be when starting their adult lives. We especially are concerned about our girls and their ability to stay at home with their families. College admission counselors at private schools talk affordability, but make them show you the money!
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Catherine, wife to Joe, mother to Ben '86, Laura '88, Samantha '89, Jessica '92, Max '02, & Julia '04
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Mary G
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Catherine:
When my SIL went to a Catholic College and said that her daughter would have to pay her own way -- SIL was told by the admissions folks that it would be impossible for a student to pay their own way through even with scholarships etc.
What is wrong with our society that even the Catholic schools have now priced themselves out of the "market" and good Catholic students CAN'T afford to attend???????
Many state schools are quite expensive also -- Clemson University, for in-state, with room/board, is almost $20K per year; out-of-state it doubles.....and this is a STATE SCHOOL!
Maybe unschooling college isn't such a bad idea..... 
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MaryG
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Elizabeth
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We don't have a blanket policy. If things go the way they look now, at least two will handily earn athletic scholarships. One will probably not earn athletic or academic scholarships and may not even want to go to college. One has said she will go to college locally and wants to work and live at home. The others are too young, though my six- year- old insists he is going to Texas. Something about college with a kid named Noah who lives near College Station. He has it in his head that that IS college. Perhaps he'll live with the Smiths, thereby claiming in-state tuition .
For some of my children, working and going to college at the same time will be a huge strain, particularly in the first year or so. We'll do what we can to support them academically by helping to carry some of the load.
I have a friend who comes from a large family. She grew up around here where there are good local options (though not necessarily Catholic ones). Her family's policy was that you go to the local university and live at home and work part time. The exception was her brother who wanted to be a vet. The best state school for that kind of prep is no where close to here. For him, her parents made an exception after he demonstrated throughout high school that he was dedicated to the goal by working at a vet.This has always seemed like a good plan to use as a spine, tweaking to suit the needs of a child.
My eldest wants to go to a very expensive, small liberal arts college. We could never afford it outright but it also happens to be a Division 1 soccer school and the coach is very interested in him. He will also need to meet some very high academic standards to get in. He's working really hard to do just that. If his hard work playing soccer and at the books will afford him an education there, I think that's great.
We built time into his senior year schedule to allow him an internship in downtown DC, testing a career tht interests him. And if he goes to the college of his choice, he already has a mentor there in that field. I think both those things will afford him real world experiences and give his education meaning.
The next kid up won't fit that mold exactly at all. But we'll take the same philosophy. What's appropriate for this child? He might need more of a boost financially to get where he needs to be.
Incidentally, my husband's parents helped their children with downpayments on their first houses. They had four kids and were working class all their lives, but they saved and lived frugally. That boost up paid huge dividends. One house, bought at the right time in the right place can make a huge difference in a family's life forever.
We doubt we'll be able to save the way they did, but we've often told our children that they can come home after college and live rent free and save for that real estate downpayment.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Mary G
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Elizabeth:
Along the soccer lines -- thought you'd be interested in this quote from Benedict the XVI: VATICAN CITY, SEP 21, 2005 (VIS) - In his greetings to Italian-speaking pilgrims present at today's general audience, the Holy Father addressed some remarks to delegations from the executive committee of UEFA and from the Italian "Gioco Calcio" Federation, accompanied by a large group of young people.
The Pope indicated that the young people, from 16 countries and accompanied by their respective ambassadors, are participating in the "Calcio-Cares" project, in collaboration with the Pontifical Council "Cor Unum."
"Your presence," said Benedict XVI, "gives me the opportunity to throw light on the importance of sport, a discipline which, if practiced in respect for the rules, becomes an educational instrument and a vehicle for important human and spiritual values. May today's initiative also serve to revitalize in each of you the commitment to ensure that sport contributes to building a society characterized by mutual respect, loyalty of behavior, and solidarity between peoples and cultures."
AG/SPORT/... VIS 050921 (160)
Blessings!
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MaryG
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tovlo4801
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What are your thoughts about state schools? Of course good, solic Catholic schools are probably the best option, but the truth is we probably can't afford them and I'm not sure my son would want to leave this area to attend them.
I was talking with a neighbor boy a while back. His dad very much wants him to attend a small Christian college and he doesn't. Our conversation turned to why his dad felt that way. I offered that he probably felt his son would be in a healthier moral environment in that sort of a school. The boy reminded me that he attends public school now and his dad knows that if he was going to get into anything bad he already would have. It's true. Our school district has a bad reputation and I'm certain this boy would have had ample opportunity to go the wrong direction already. Instead he and his brother, who is my son's good friend, are great kids with a strong faith.
As we talked, I remembered reading somewhere that secular state schools can often produce adults who are more passionate about their faith than luke warm, faith-based schools. The key being that they have good faith support outside of the school. Kids who are in luke warm faith-based schools often come out losing whatever they had as they receive confused and watered down faith. Unfortunatly, my understanding is our Catholic school options around here lean toward the luke warm side. On the other hand kids who attend state schools bump straight up against all the adversity and learn to defend their faith.
I think I read this perspective in an Our Sunday Visitor article about a state college in Texas with a good Newman Center that has more vocations than many Catholic schools.
I'm wondering if it's worth the faith risk to attend a state school and avoid the excess debt. I wonder if the risk isn't that great if there is good support. How do you know what state schools have good faith support for kids?
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cswini
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We are in the process of looking at schools with our second child, and we always make it a point to check out the Newman Center or Campus Ministry, or whatever they call it. However, college kids are basically adults, and once they leave the nest, you can't force them to attend anything. So our take it to try to instill in them a strong basis, and pray that it can stand the test of college, a challenge even in Catholic schools. At some point parental control is mostly over, and all we can do is pray that the foundation is laid. Kids have to make the faith their own, and we can't do that for them.
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Catherine, wife to Joe, mother to Ben '86, Laura '88, Samantha '89, Jessica '92, Max '02, & Julia '04
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MaryM
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tovlo4801 wrote:
What are your thoughts about state schools?
How do you know what state schools have good faith support for kids? |
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Schools that have FOCUS (Fellowship of Catholic University Students) have excellent faith support for college students. The program is founded and run by Curtis Martin. They continue to grow each year and add new campuses. We have personal experience here with the missionaries who have been at University of Denver. They are awesome.
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Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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ALmom
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Our own situation is a one child at a time and we are continually evaluating and re-evaluating.
We feel no obligation to pay for our dc college educations, although we will gladly help them out if we are able and if they have shown real effort and focus. The children know that they are responsible for their own college education and whatever we might be able to help with is bonus. We also expect them to communicate with us and research where they want to go and we all are involved in this decision, but ultimately it is the child's education and we have to respect all the unique things that come together for this child. This is one area we find that we seem to stand alone.
Our area is very high tech and most parents feel it is part of their duty to send their dc to whatever college is desired. It is funny, but some schools have a big name but a local school is equally as respected in certain fields. Sometimes a child is much better served going to a state university at the undergraduate level due to more individual mentoring. A top calibre student that is not a child prodigy often gets very preferential treatment at a local university (working with faculty in individual research, etc.) where they would be one of a crowd at Harvard or even being shifted between graduate students at someplace like Eastman. Our local university has a professor that is a guest faculty member at Eastman, and our dd would have an opportunity to work with him at our local university while she would most likely get graduate students at Eastman. A lot of people ignore these little subtleties and get pulled in by the status of the big name and think just because they are paying mega bucks, they get a better education. If our dd is able to really develop in her music and still has the passion after four years, then is the better time to pursue Eastman or Julliard, in her case, and these universities do have students going on to graduate school there. We try to encourage her to never close a door prematurely - ie graduate school at some of these places are duanting in cost but if they really want you they can be quite generous with money, so see where she is in four years and look again. The key is what is God calling you to do with your talent, how do you best develop it at the moment and then see what doors open and close for you. Someone who is already at the Julliard prep school or has gained the eye of one of the professors or won a very prestigious international competition would have different opportunities at these schools than my dd does right now and their best bet may really be these big schools at the undergraduate level. Through advice and realistic assessment of where she is right now and her desire to pursue more than one instrument, the nearby university seems to be the best way for her to develop her talents right now. She has met with and worked with the faculty in these areas and all of us are very happy with her first choice. So I guess choosing a college becomes a mentoring process involving mom, dad, and other adults in her field, etc. I think it is very important for the adults to be there guiding the choice, but I would not force a child to go somewhere just because it was my wish. We would not be willing to contribute money towards what we felt was a really horrible choice. Ideally, I thought a truely Catholic school with all that support we wanted in high school would be great and tried to help find such a school that would appeal to dc. I even wrote Catholic musicians, contacted a homeschool provider etc. They seemed of the mind that our dd had to spend her first year at a solidly Catholic school. We disagreed and felt that was a horrible waste of money if they didn't even have anything our dd wanted to pursue. I found out that a truely Catholic school does not exist in her field. We all came to a point of real agreement on where she is best served and the doors are opening.
As for paying the bill, my dh came from a family of 2 sons and they certainly had the means to foot entire bills - the parents payed 1/2 and dc worked or earned the rest. My family had more of the oldest help the younger as we moved from college to the working world. One disadvantage of this is the subtle pressure that is hidden - I have to get a degree in something that will earn a living after school. That's why I double majored in math and history. I figured math would pay the bills and I liked manipulating numbers. It's not all bad but I might have been freer to pursue more of my passion if I had footed the full bill.
As far as Catholic versus secular college settings. I really do think it depends on what the child is studying and where the child is drawn. It is their education and while they need a lot of mentoring in the decision making process, it is their education and I want to respect what is unique about their interests and goals and personalties and strengths and weaknesses. I also want to make sure we discuss very carefully the advantages and pitfalls of each place - and weigh it all realistically. Cost is one of the factors, but don't eliminate a school based on cost. Some are very generous with their money and have more of it than others. Apply and see what you get. You can always turn them down if the money package isn't good enough. There are even large differences between universities in the same state system.
Our oldest will probably be going to a state school - music is her field and there aren't any really Catholic universities that fit the bill. There isn't much difference between a lot of Catholic colleges and universities and your state universities except cost. There are some solid and truely Catholic universities but they don't have the degree she wants.
If the dc wants to pursue history or English then I think a solidly orthodox Catholic school may be worth the cost. I say this because a lot of public universities have gone crazy in these fields - our local university's English program has a fine cadre of very anti-Catholic and feminist professors and spending four years under that kind of tutelage is a bit much. A relative of ours is footing a significant portion of the bill at a Catholic university and the dc is also working while in school. They may not be able to do this for 4 years, but each year provides this child with that more positive experience in history and English and a chance to really impress the school in the hopes of getting some more money so he can stay. Another friend had a sister that had to fight for her degree - she made all A's in her college classes but wrote papers in keeping with her Catholic faith and had a restriction placed on her diploma that she could not seek a teaching certificate in the state. I really would hesitate to think the outcome is as likely to be positive after 4 years under the mentoring and tutelage of someone like these feminist, anti-Catholics.
An engineer or someone in the field of math or science could put up with one or two courses in the history and English departments gone wild. Their bigger concern would be the degree of respect in their field and the particular qualifications of the professors.
I guess in a long winded way, what I am trying to say is that each situation is so individual. We have looked at the individual professors at the schools in the field our dd is pursuing and chosen accordingly. Most colleges provide opportunities for the high schooler considering their school to sit in on classes and observe and meet the professors that will be working with them in their field. Take advantage of this. You learn a lot about a school this way and can make a much more informed decision.
If our dc have no idea what their major will be as they graduate from high school, then I would advise working and local courses in the surrounding area where they can live at home until they have a direction.
Just some longwinded ponderings. It's nice to see so many kindred spirits.
Janet
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tgriff3
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There is no way we will possibly be able to afford to send all of our children to college unless God provides. :-) We are living on one very modest income which my husband works entirely too hard to make, which is why we are encouraging our children to save money earned before college to help defray the expenses. We are fortunate to have many good schools in our area, sadly no Catholic ones but our children can live at home, work part time and we will help as much as possible, which is likely not much. They can also work full time and go to community college for the first 2 years which will help keep the costs down.
Our oldest is a senior. He really has little interest in college. I am encouraging him but not pushing.
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Tina
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Liz D
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We take it one kid at a time but don't plan on paying much of the bill on any of our six kids. Three of my children are in college right now. The oldest is doing her masters in speech pathology. Her whole college career has been funded by different scholarships and she has enough to make it through her last year. She's not a genius but has been very hard working.She has always lived at home which helps her financially. My son has a ROTC scholarship, attends out of state college, and has gotten a few other scholarships to help with his housing. The third child is going to a
community college, lives at home, pays her own way, and has not applied for any scholarships. She was not an outstanding student in hs but her grades in college have been great so maybe that will help her with future scholarships.
I bore you with this to encourage you to look for scholarships. It's work for the child but there's a lot out there. These three kids were not homeschooled and we're military and some of the scholarships came from military affliated sources. They also were all merit based. Don't know how being homeschooled will affect the younger three kids chance of scholarships. Just something to think about.
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ALmom
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Homeschooling has not been a disadvantage in our area at all. Here's what we have been told - PSAT scores in Junior Year bring in huge scholarships if dc is National Merit semifinalist or finalist (at our local state University this is an automatic full tuition, room and board scholarship plus spending money and funding for study abroad, plus book allowance, plus a lap top computer.) We didn't make that one.
The next possibility is based on SAT/ACT scores with two tiers that automatically qualify you for either a partial or a full tuition scholarship.
After that you apply for the school, including filling out the Federal Financial aid form, look up the scholarship listings on the web for which you are qualified to apply, check those boxes off on the admissions form, and send all requested supplemental materials (recommmendations from two academic teachers - we are using two tutors we hired (English and Spanish), essays (personal essays, an essay on why you need money, etc. and, in our case, an audition for a music scholarship.) When all this is in place, she is automatically considered for scholarships for which she qualifies.
One hint we were given was to apply early - as close to September as possible as the money pool is very large at the beginning and dwindles as deadlines approach. I guess it is the Early Bird Catches the Worm. The scholarship deadlines are much earlier than the application deadlines.
We were told that there are all kinds of scholarships awarded after the initial acceptance of your application. We certainly found a preponderance of odd scholarships - priority to descendants of ....We decided that applying to everything for which we qualify is a good bet and perhaps we will be the only applicant for some of these really odd ball ones.
Speaking with homeschoolers in our area, many homeschoolers have gotten a free ride. One area of great interest to the committees that decide these things are the community, volunteer and leadership activities. Keep a record of everything between 9 - 12 grade and fit it somewhere on the application.
We have found that there are tons more scholarships available for incoming freshmen, so we want to apply and see. We haven't got our application in yet - it is going Tuesday so we'll see what happens. Also there is grant money as opposed to loans and these are determined from the federal form.
One thing about scholarships is that you do not know until you apply. Scholarships are not awarded until you have applied and been accepted to the university or college. That doesn't mean you have to go there. See who gives you the best deal of the schools that seem to serve your goals best. Sometimes more expensive schools provide more money. Among the very orthodox Catholic colleges, some have a reputation of being unable to help defray expenses and others promise in their literature that they will pull together a work-study, scholarship package for any student they admit so that no one will have to turn them down based on cost. There is plenty of hope. Just do the research early.
We'll be a lot better at this scholarship circus thing with dc #2 and I'm sure it will be less stressful the second time around.
I used to fret because I didn't have the support or advice of a guidance counselor at a "real school". What I am finding out from my ps ing friends is that they don't get much more help than I do so it's all about the same.
We were told of a homeschooler that took the SAT one time with 104 degree fever. (He had already registered and it was the only SAT they could afford) He scored in the 1200s and ended up with full tuition, room and board at the big state university. Most colleges allow you to take the SAT 3 times and take the best score - whichever one it is.
It is crazy that so much rides on one silly test, but that is the game. There are plenty of test books to use for practice - and never having taken standardized tests, we found it helpful to run through some just to get a feel for how questions are worded and how to fill in bubbles etc. We did not spend any megabucks for test prep classes or anything. Also some kids score better on the ACT than the SAT and vice versa. See which scores your colleges of choice accept. If they accept both, take both and see which one is your better one.
Oh, besides visiting campuses during school hours, we peruse the website, looking not only at the areas directed to incoming freshmen or prospective students but also those areas directed at current students. You can often get a feel for how pc they are - plus you may find hints on problems the school or student groups are addressing. We know there is a certain street lined with bars which the university is trying to get cleaned up in cooperation with the city (ie there have been incidents of some sort impacting students and involving excessive drinking, there have also been some safety issues that the university is trying to address - now we know some things to discuss, ask about, etc. as well as areas to caution our dc if she attends). We also figured out that we didn't want to attend certain schools because of all the diversity education courses required of incoming freshman and looking at the student paper on-line we all knew it was liberal city USA with no tolerance for a conservative view of any sort.
Janet
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teachingmom
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Virginia Bluebells
Joined: Feb 16 2005
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| Posted: Oct 09 2005 at 9:50pm | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
I think I read this perspective in an Our Sunday Visitor article about a state college in Texas with a good Newman Center that has more vocations than many Catholic schools.
I'm wondering if it's worth the faith risk to attend a state school and avoid the excess debt. I wonder if the risk isn't that great if there is good support. How do you know what state schools have good faith support for kids? |
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The Our Sunday Visitor article must have been about Texas A&M. They have a GREAT Catholic student group. I'm sure Tim and Janette can tell you more.
Another one is the University of Illinois at Champaign. We have a good Catholic friend who is a professor there, and he speaks very highly of the Newman Center. We had a long conversation when they visited this summer about whether he thought that a well-formed Catholic would likely keep his or her faith at a state university. He thought that an orthodox Newman Center was key.
There is a third place that I heard of recently. I think it is a state university in Kansas (or maybe Kentucky?). Do any of you know more about that?
__________________
~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Who Pays for College?
