| Author | |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Sept 18 2005 at 10:52am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
I thought we could move this discussion to a thread of its own. Richelle mentioned her concern that her oldest finds rote memorization difficult and stressful, plus that he has a "conceptual" way of thinking.
I have been thinking about this -- reminds me of MY oldest. He was just great at grasping concepts, but it took him 2 years to memorize his times tables and he never got very far with catechism memorizing -- I just pretty much gave it up in the end.
Yet, as Brenda said, the words ARE important with the Catechism Q & A and it does not have to take long -- 5 minutes a day is plenty and we can move at our kids' own speed.
Richelle, you said you were going to try again with the memory work but go slower this time. A couple of things I used to do with my children --(1) have my children type out the memorization work on the computer rather than copy it by hand or recite it -- (2) I put the Qs and As on index cards and had them match them for a few minutes every day. It didn't work GREAT but it seemed to work out about as well as oral recitation.
But the bottom line is that NONE of my young children have taken well to formal memorization any more than they have to formal narration. I guess after processing this on the unschooling board, I realize that they tend to resist "formal" teaching of almost every kind.
Thinking about this also helped me realize that my children ARE all good at memorizing but in their own way. My oldest had a conceptual memory -- when he read something or learned something, he'd immediately "translate" it so he could connect it to what he already knew. This is a wonderful academic talent but it made it incredibly difficult for him to recite things word-perfect. For him, "rote" memorizing was like holding food in his mouth but not chewing or swallowing. Where he gained ground with rote memory of a kind was when he started getting serious about language study and advanced math. Then he HAD to know his Latin paradigms and math facts, and be able to retrieve them instantly, so he could USE them.
But he still struggles with memorizing tasks that aren't intrinsicially understandable -- at college, he has just told me he was so RELIEVED when the tutor told him he didn't have to have the Euclidean postulates memorized exactly or tabulated mentally by number -- he just has to KNOW them.
One other little factoid here -- while Dorothy Sayers and a lot of other classical writers say that childrens' memories are the best in their early years, the Ignatian booklet said that high schoolers have the most versatile and effective memories -- that was surprising to me and I'm not sure what to think of it, but I thought I'd throw it out here.
It DID seem to be true of my oldest and my theory is that the primary years are so much devoted to other, more "primary" tasks like gaining competence in the 3Rs and learning how to cope with the daily agenda of life, that the more "abstract" kind of facts don't really stick in the mind until later. But that's just a start and I'd like to know what others think.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Sept 18 2005 at 11:55am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm quoting Richelle's post from the Ignatian thread because it was a great summary of the benefits and challenges of memorization that were brought out in the whole thread:
tovlo4801 wrote:
I think everything you said makes a lot of sense. One thought about your comments on memorizing. I think you make a very valid point about religious memorization being valuable to draw on. (BTW I agree about the careful crafting of the catechism statements. They are hard to paraphrase without missing something.) I love the Anima Christi. Everytime I recieve Jesus in the Eucharist I return to kneel and want to say it. I don't have it memorized, so I just recall pieces of it that I can and hope God knows my intention. I want desperately to just have it there. I WANT to memorize it. I agree that it is valuable.
I think you hit on a key to memorization for me. Do it to the level of ability for the child. That was probably my mistake. I tried to work through the Catechism according to the schedule, basically 5-10 statements a week. That was simply too much for my son. There was no way we would memorize the whole thing in one year, yet it was in the plan so I figured it must be possible. We burnt out because we didn't respect the reality of our abilities. I agree about Ignatian education taking that into consideration. What I gathered from the booklet seemed to support this. I am so glad that I read that booklet before beginning this school year. I am also so glad that I've been able to chat with you guys to sort some things out.
We're going to try reciting a poem to memorize next week. I found a website with short, easily memorized poems and I'm going to ask my son what poem he wants to memorize. Then we'll all just spend a minute or two each day reciting pieces of it until we own it. I don't care how long it takes. I found a psalm that I've fallen in love with. Maybe I'll suggest we all try to memorize that next. 
|
|
|
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: Sept 18 2005 at 12:17pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think it is interesting that CM emphasized memory in the early years and Ignatian in the older ages. Is one a simpler, more natural outgrowth of the normal repetition we experience with our toddlers - "read me that story again" and the other a more mature discipline arising from greater understanding?
I am wondering if there is something to developing auditory learning even in a visual learner. Ie I want all my dc to be competent in both oral presentations and in written essays regardless of their learning style. I think, perhaps, we build the area of strength, lay the groundwork in the area of weakness and then at some point the area of strength supports and helps the child become competent in an area of weakness.
I do think there is a certain amount of a natural desire for repetition (the polly parrot stage) and whether or not the child memorizes word for word, that repetition is important in creating a balance in learning from hearing and seeing. I know that all my children wanted stories and poems read over and over again. Some would have the story memorized before it had been read 3X, others learned lots of the story but not all word for word. Both were developing memory and auditory learning. In the past, children played all kinds of games that involved memorizing - all the ditties with jump rope and circle games, etc. We rarely see this anymore and it is a real loss. Perhaps this innocent, wonderful, enchanted part of childhood, was what CM was cautioning against losing. I would like to try and regain this for my own. Repetition is part of this.
I also know that some of my children need more than oral in order to really memorize. They would not do well with copying a poem once it is memorized, but do better copying the poem and using the copy to read and re-read until it is memorized. Then we recite it and sometimes at stages in between. Some of mine require an explanation in order to memorize. Ie if they know why a word is important and how it is connected to something else, then it can be memorized. Initially it is "sort of memorized" in that the gist is known and the rest is derived from reason. Then when it is used over and over it does become automatic. Sometimes memorization takes place when its need is evident. I did that with my math facts - refusing to memorize multiplication facts and insisting on adding 5 2's until I decided I wanted to be done sooner. The catechism becomes memorized very slowly over time, because we know the gist, try to get more precise and eventually see how having the memorized words at our finger tips helps us to grasp more quickly the precision we need in order to answer an inquiry about what we believe - leaving some part out leaves the inquirer with a skewed idea. This doesn't mean we use the catechism itself as an answer, but as a check on ourselves. This kind of memorization is more common with the older children.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Sept 18 2005 at 12:28pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Moving Brenda's post on memorization techniques over here:
BrendaPeter wrote:
In response to your comments I'll try to give you some specifics in terms of memorization. My oldest is an auditory learner so he does very well with memorization. My 2nd son is a visual learner so memorization is tougher for him, therefore the standards are lower. Since we technically have
4 dc in school, I do several things one-room schoolhouse style. Besides being more efficient, I think that we're able to foster habits better this way. Memorizing poetry is something we (all) do. We love the poems of Robert Louis Stevenson. Even our extended family have memorized some of the poems from the kids' numerous recitations. Every few days we recite old poems to keep them fresh. We listen frequently to "a child's garden of songs" by Ted Jacobs which is a compilation of Stevenson's poetry set to lovely music.
I totally agree with you about the Baltimore Catechism. We love it. We love reading it & discussing it. We memorize it - not "cold" but in general. We go to a local friary that gives out prizes when kids answer catechism questions correctly - that's a nice motivation  . That said, the fact that your son understands it is WONDERFUL and most important. Blood shedding is unnecessary  ! I'm sorry, I couldn't resist... If you're learning any foreign language, memorization will be necessary anyway.
|
|
|
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Sept 18 2005 at 12:33pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
And this is from Janet's post on the Ignatian education thread -- on the deeper purpose of memorization:
ALmom wrote:
What is the purpose of memorization - is it to train the memory or to make sure there is some content with which to work in order to start analyzing or to develop a sense of precise formulation of expression? Perhaps there is something even deeper here - owning it at a deeper level because it is memorized.
If the purpose of memory work is just to develop memory, then whatever makes it palatable and in short chunks seems to me to be a perfectly legitimate substitution. It doesn't much matter, then, what you memorize. It could be useful information, phone #, poetry, etc. I have some children that memorize effortlessly and others that have difficulty in the area. Repetition helps one child, music helps another, etc. We use what works here and accept whatever memorization is a necessary part of our lives as the content.
If the purpose of the memory work is to develop details of events in order to have something from which to draw when analyzing an event then by all means ditch the lists and actively engage in lapbooking, real experiences - whatever makes the events come alive and stick for that child. I, personally, don't like giving my children lists of names and dates and events to memorize - we read biographies, make timelines, talk about sequence etc. until there are some important names, dates and events that stick as a framework for later analysis.
I can identify with what was said about memorizing the Baltimore Catechism. I found it difficult to see the point of it at first - other than to make sure the children had a very solid grasp of the truths of the faith - and that seemed doable in ways a lot less painless than memorization. I told the children, we weren't worried about word for word here, just meaning - but then you began to take apart the sentences and realize that they are crafted precisely and leaving a few words out does not express the truth quite as accurately. We ended up memorizing a lot word for word because the meaning was there - but could not do it with every one all at once, so we begin to talk about them, get the gist of what they are saying and try to make it our own. The process of memorization, though painful, helped us to gain a better understanding. This is not to say that every one of our children have memorized the same things. My child who has extreme difficulty with memorization cannot learn 10 question and answers in a school year. It might take him a month or more to memorize prayers that we pray together as a family every night. I think this variety is also a part of the Ignatian method as you have to be aware of the child and the child's abilities - challenging them, but not frustrating them. It is the goal of realizing how precise those answers are, and being able to know the Faith well enough to answer with precision. But this does not have to be done all at once. My children will not have the entire Baltimore Catechism memorized before they leave our hs (and neither will I) but we know it's value and can continue to plug away in chunks that are doable and one day we will see face to face. I see this as a process. Someone said prayer - I think this is what will let us know what is the correct amount of memory work here for our family and for each child in it. I look at learning the Latin prayers in the same way - a little at a time. Enough to challenge but not frustrate. It also doesn't mean we aren't gentle. I don't have to give memory tests and mark them all up in red. It can be done slowly, gently without it seeming to be a test - a sort of discussion drawing out greater and greater precision until you see it grasped. Patience is developed in the teacher in the process, right?
But I also wonder if there is something else about memorization - something deeper that explains why it is emphasized in the classical method and in the Ignatian. I was not required to memorize much as a child - but there are 2 things I did memorize 1)Psalm 23 - in second grade. I memorized it and was required to recite it before the class. I remember the pressure of repeating and repeating it aloud so I wouldn't embarrass myself. I went cold before the class and forgot every bit of it at the time but when I was older and really hurting - it was the Psalm that came back to me. No other version strikes me quite the way or with as much power as the one I memorized.
2) I read Little Women so many times and memorized Jo's poem to Beth because it expressed me so well. I really identified with Jo. That poem still makes me cry and feel something I cannot really express.
I read about Vietnam veterans who spent 8 years in captivity seperated from their families and often forced to spend years in isolation, tortured by the communist captors in an attempt to break them. I met one of these men when I was in college. He spoke of the real lifeline those memorized things were in life as a POW. God and the memorized prayers, Bible verses, songs, poetry, catechism - those are what preserved his sanity. Grace builds on nature.
This last area is the area I really ponder. We have not done a tremendous amount of memorization, but I feel there is something missing without it, something at a deep level. If we should memorize something at this level, what should it be? It must be true, good and holy. If I am looking at a set of lesson plans, what will speak to the child's soul and be a source of comfort for him/her in old age, in adversity, in sorrow and suffering. What will strengthen the child against temptation because it will pop into his/her head just at the right moment through the intercession of his guardian angel but built on those real things that were formed in his nature in childhood. Certainly, I don't have to be tied to someone's lesson plan on what to memorize here - but the catechism does come to mind, as does Scripture, poetry, profound statements from literature and the saints. I like CHC little memory quotes here as they are short and sweet and become the little, short prayers of the day. I too was put off by some of what I saw in classical - endless lists to memorize. In classical education, imo, we are adapting the things that were good from pagan pedagogy but we have to remember that what pagans valued and what Christians value are not necessarily the same and substitute accordingly. I do not feel qualified to do this but, I think this is what Ignatius did and Kolbe has tried to implement in their lesson plans. (This is just my own opinion so you more knowledgeable folks, correct me if I'm wrong, because I really believe that understanding the purpose that is trying to be achieved is important to wise substitutions and modifications. I think that these kinds of adjustments to fit the child were a part of these educational philosophers, unlike other philosophers (ie Dewey whose philosophy our current ps system is based on and which was designed simply to make students into productive, contributing members of the state).
I have diverged somewhat, but memorization does seem to be something of a deeper level of the soul. We are not addressing this aspect of memorization in our own hs family right now as I think we should. Some of it is creating that atrium where these things can really speak to our souls - that is the first motivation for memorizing them. A lot of you moms have shared wonderful ideas about copy books where the child keeps favorite memorized passages. Isn't that what this part of memorization is all about. But one child may memorize everything in the Baltimore catechism, long passages from Shakespeare, many Bible passages and poems. Another child may memorize shorter ejaculations from the saints, a short poem, some Bible passages and some of the Baltimore catechism according to his/her abiltiy. Of course, as we stretch, so do our abilities so again we can continue this through a lifetime. |
|
|
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
BrendaPeter
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Sept 19 2005 at 6:20am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hi Willa,
This is great! Of course I just responded with a bunch of stuff on the other thread  so I'll have to do some cutting & pasting soon.
Just wanted to mention some of the things we've successfully memorized:
Poetry
Baltimore Catechism
Major World History dates
Greek & Latin roots
Latin songs, prayers & vocabulary
States & Capitals
__________________
Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Sept 20 2005 at 11:36am | IP Logged
|
|
|
My children like Quia memory games:
Latina Christiana I & II
States and Capitals
Greek and Latin Roots
Others are Here
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
tovlo4801
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 28 2005
Location: Minnesota
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 386
|
| Posted: Sept 20 2005 at 12:35pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Willa,
Thanks! I've never seen this site. We're going to start Latina Christiana here pretty soon, and I was fretting a bit about how we would tackle the memorization. That site will work beautifully! I played with it for a while and it's kind of fun. 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Memorizing and Classical Education
