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CKwasniewski
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| Posted: Jan 16 2008 at 11:34am | IP Logged
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I'd love to hear about the experience of those of you who have waited to do a formal math program, say till age 10-12.
1) What made you wait on formal math?
2) what informal math did you do?
3) How did things go when it was time to "catch up"? What program did you use?
4) How does the child relate to math now?
Thanks,
CK
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JuliaT
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| Posted: Jan 17 2008 at 2:54pm | IP Logged
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I have not done this but I wish I had the guts to do it. I think if I had waited, my dd would not have the abysmal math phobia that she has now. I just can't seem to let go of the curriculum. But I have made some allowances for this. I do use a math program that is high on hands on activities and low on worksheet(RightStart) Also, we do mainlesson blocks here. This is has worked out very well for math. We have roughly two hours a day to do just math things. We do spend time on RS but we also have more time for living math activities.
This week we are in our second week of our math block. I introduced prime numbers to my dd with the help of Marilyn Burns' book, I Hate Mathematics. My dd loved exploring what numbers were prime. Then later this week, an elist that I am on sent some links for prime numbers. I am hoping to be able to look them over today so we can do them either tomorrow or next week (the last week of our math block.)
I would think that now, with everyone jumping on the living math bandwagon, it would be so easy to do math without a formal program. There are so many living math books like Marilyn Burns' books, Family Math and the Sir Cumference books (to name only a few.) There are also oodles and oodles of sites online that could offer help, even in the higher maths.
Oh, I wish I had the courage to do this. I'm getting excited just thinking about this.
Blessings,
Julia
mom of 3(8,7,5)
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CKwasniewski
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| Posted: Jan 18 2008 at 11:11am | IP Logged
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Julia, I have been doing this for the last 2 years, with my ds (8). Before we moved to WY, we had to worry about a yearly test. So, I had him doing Singapore Math.
It was fun, it had cute pictures. He could do it, if I sat with him... but there were a lot of glazed eyes. And he would forget it all very easily. (This is not a slow kid either, he's way ahead in a lot of other things.) I thought, what is wrong???
When I read Teaching the Trivium I finally got an accurate description of what I was seeing. The human mind at that age is physically at a disadvantage. It's not meant to do the abstract reasoning that math requires. You can teach kids to do the "trick", but its harder to really understand what its all about.
Apparently, the human brain can use any of several different systems to do various kinds of learning. These various systems become "available" at different times, so if a child is forced to learn something before he is ready, a "less adaptive, lower" system will be trained to do the work. This kind of thing, they argue, leads to general academic discouragement, and math phobia.
Another argument they make is that historically its VERY new to have little kids doing mathematics. The Ancients did not, and the Medievals did not teach it till between the ages of 15-18! It was only in the 16th century that it was even taught to 10-12 year olds. In the 19th century arithmetic began to be taught to children as young as 6 or 7, though waiting till age 10 even lasted till through about the first half of the century in the US.
They have a large appendix in their book on this and it is backed up by the research of Dr. Raymond Moore (School can wait) and Jane Healy (Endangered Minds), among others.
Some things to think about.
ck
BTW--I have major reservations about Teaching the Trivium, but this is one thing I think they got right.
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pipandpuddy
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| Posted: Jan 18 2008 at 5:24pm | IP Logged
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CK,
I have done this with my six younger children. The oldest of the six just turned 16 started using a formal math program (Teaching Textbook high school series) this past summer. He finished the Algebra I course in five months, and will finish the Algebra II book at the end of March. He did not have any catching up to do as he had picked up math concepts over the years. He played (and still plays) with Legos, Kapla, blocks, and other building sets. He also did model railroading, built plastic models, did woodworking, cooked/baked, etc. He also read a lot of math/science books from the library. His understanding of math concepts is stronger than any of my other older children. My other younger ones have not really started a formal program. They do a variety of things like their older brother. I went this route mainly because of time restraints in trying to teach so many children as well as being influenced by articles and books by unschoolers. Allison McKee addresses this topic in her unschooling book. It's well worth reading if you want to go this route. One other thing, I always had/have a lot of math manipulatives around the house (i.e. Cuisenaire rods, tangrams, etc.).
I hope this helps. Karen
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CKwasniewski
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| Posted: Jan 18 2008 at 6:45pm | IP Logged
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Karen,
Thanks for your input. It's good to hear that this approach has worked for you.
I am getting the McKee book out from the library. Thanks for the suggestion.
ck
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chicken lady
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| Posted: Jan 19 2008 at 9:15am | IP Logged
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We too have a very informal approach to math. I have seen my children learn concepts very quickly when they needed to.
example: dd 11 really loves woodworking, she wanted to make a castle for her brother and build it to scale of his knights. She learn how to build to scale in 1 night from her father. No need for catch up, she was motivated and ready to learn.
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Denise in IL
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| Posted: Jan 23 2008 at 9:12am | IP Logged
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CKwasniewski wrote:
I'd love to hear about the experience of those of you who have waited to do a formal math program, say till age 10-12.
1) What made you wait on formal math?
2) what informal math did you do?
3) How did things go when it was time to "catch up"? What program did you use?
4) How does the child relate to math now?
Thanks,
CK |
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I waited with my older kids, until I discovered Singapore math and started using it with the younger ones. To answer your questions:
(1) I was impatient with the simplicity and repetitiveness of the early-level math textbooks I had seen. They seemed to be mostly busywork and handwriting practice to me.
(2) Our favorite informal math was to ask each other oral story problems, taking turns, as we drove somewhere or worked in the kitchen or whatever. We also played card and dice games, and simple math came up in other ways.
(3) We started in with a 4th-grade textbook (I think it was Scott Foresman), and it went pretty well. We worked through it, discussed the concepts, did a few problems orally or on scratch paper, and then assigned about 3-4 written problems for homework. I didn't see any reason to do 15 of the same type of problem each day.
Horizons might have been a better choice for textbook---don't they continue practicing old topics in each lesson, as well as doing the new ones?---but we used what we had available. After a year or two of Scott Foresman, I tried Saxon so we could have that distributed practice, but I was terribly disappointed in the level of word problems and the rote-ness of the lessons.
(4) Of three children who took this approach, two are competent with math but don't particularly care for it. (One of these is a literature guy, the other is a hands-on type who loves martial arts.) The third child enjoys math and does very well at it, currently studying engineering.
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Mary G
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| Posted: Jan 23 2008 at 9:25am | IP Logged
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Karen thanks so much for your response to CK's question. I love this idea of "free-style" math until high school (well, maybe late middle school). Formal math is such a drudgery around here and as I'm TRYING to bring more JOY into our home, shifting from formal to informal math just really resonates with me ... I'm so glad to hear that it works. As you, I have LOTS of manipulatives, puzzles, books for them to use and we enjoy using these things together or separately. For instance, for math yesterday the three littles and I worked thru Anno's Math Games which has some amazingly complex concepts in an easy format ... because of the differing ages (9, almost 8 and 5) -- they each took something different away from the "lesson" ... and each wanted to go a different route when we finished (e.g, Thomas wanted to continue using the paper-cut shapes to make other shapes ala tangrams).
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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Sarah M
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| Posted: Jan 23 2008 at 10:29am | IP Logged
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Thank you so much Mary for the Magical Childhood link. I love love love that website. I printed off gazillions of articles to help me to remember to treasure the magic of every day. I encourage anyone else with littles to check it out.
Thanks again!
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CKwasniewski
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| Posted: Jan 23 2008 at 7:16pm | IP Logged
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Denise,
Thanks for your practical suggestions on just how much to do when we get around to the textbook.... Good sense.
MaryG, we love Anno's Math games! I can't even do some of them... 
Okay, I have to go make dinner.... 
ck
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pipandpuddy
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| Posted: Jan 23 2008 at 8:02pm | IP Logged
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Mary,
I know a lady who had a very weak background in basic math and she had no higher math in school; however, she was able to get into carpentry school and had an easy time with the math portion of the test because all the math that she was tested on she learned from sewing over the years. If you have books, games, and manipulatives and you let your children pursue their interests, they will pick up a lot of math over time. My two younger sons (9 and 12) have fresh/saltwater tanks and ponds which they set up and maintain; they also do a lot of woodworking (my husband is a contractor). As a result, they know all about volume, measurement, weight, etc. They have a better understanding of these things than I have, and I had five years of advanced math in school. They can just look at something and tell how long/wide/heavy it is (I would have to measure/weigh it). When math is used in daily life, it is so much more meaningful. Too often when children are stuck doing a formal program, they don't have time to pursue their interests, and opportunities for real learning are lost. Thanks for your comment. Karen
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: Waiting on Formal math?
