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Lorri
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I found this paragraph on Fisheaters.com:
" Note: In America, November 11 is also the secular world's Veterans' Day. Veterans' Day began as "Armistice Day" (initiated by anti-Catholic Woodrow Wilson and formalized in 1938), which is the anniversary of the World War I Armistice (truce) signed in the Forest of Compiegne by the Allies and the Germans in 1918."
Even if Wilson was anti-Catholic, and it appears that he was, is the implication here that Wilson initiated Veterans Day as a direct way to replace the feast of St. Martin? Is it really too naive to think that maybe Veteran's Day really is on Nov 11 because of the armistice?
I hate to read stuff like this, where there is such an us versus them mentality. Or have I been misinformed all these years?
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Lorri
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MaryM
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Lorri - I wouldn't read more into it than there really is. It may have just been stated as an aside in that quote at the end. Even if they are indicating a connection, I did some searching and can't find any similar reference except on Fish Eaters page. I think it truly is the date only because of the Armistice. There is an equivalent day in England - Remembrance Day. In the US it was Armistice Day until 1954 when Truman changed it to Veteran's Day to honor all War Veterans since we had other major wars after 1918. Later it was changed to the fourth Monday in October - then returned to Nov. 11th in 1971. So much of this history is beyond the involvement of Woodrow Wilson.
I choose instead to marvel at the God coincidence that this secular day of honoring our war veterans happens to fall on the same day as the beautiful feast day of a soldier saint. So even if Woodrow Wilson did institute this day to detract from the saint's feast I think it only adds to it.
It is also helpful to be aware of the focus and possible bias on web sources. I enjoy the Fish Eaters site and find that it has a tremendous wealth of resources on the beautiful traditions of our faith, but FYI - here is the Catholic Culture review of their site. It is important to read the web with a discerning eye.
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Mary M. in Denver
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Lorri
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Thank you so much for that perspective, Mary. The review on Catholic Culture made it all make sense. I couldn't find anything at home to read to my dc about St. Martin, and Fish Eaters had what I was looking for.
I so totally missed the soldier saint, soldier holiday connection! If nothing else, at least I learned that! Very cool.
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JennGM
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MaryM wrote:
I choose instead to marvel at the God coincidence that this secular day of honoring our war veterans happens to fall on the same day as the beautiful feast day of a soldier saint. So even if Woodrow Wilson did institute this day to detract from the saint's feast I think it only adds to it.
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I think the same thing -- neat that it falls on the feast of the patron saint of soldiers.
And I'll second Mary's caution about Fisheaters. I think the statement about Wilson isn't only directed at declaring this Veteran's Day, but some of his other policies in his presidency. Either way, it's just a personal interjection by the author of this site, not fact.
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Rachel May
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Today I was reading a book called "Nonviolence" by and anti-Catholic who also happens to be a complete idiot on other topics (IMHO).
Here is a quote from his book, "Saint Martin has become a kind of military figure, usually portrayed in armor. The U.S. Army Quartermasters Corps awards a medal named after him, 'The military order of Saint Martin.' Saint Martin is supposed to have died on November 11, 397. Historians say that the day is uncertain, but the date has taken on absolute certainty as the Feast of Saint Martin because it coincides with the date of the armistice ending World War I."
Is he implying that the Church never celebrated the Feast of St. Martin on Nov. 11th until after WWI? Is that true? He makes it sound like the Church changed her calendar to fit with the secular celebration as opposed to the Fisheaters implication that Wilson set Armistice Day to secularize the feast.
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JennGM
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Rachel May wrote:
Today I was reading a book called "Nonviolence" by and anti-Catholic who also happens to be a complete idiot on other topics (IMHO).
Here is a quote from his book, "Saint Martin has become a kind of military figure, usually portrayed in armor. The U.S. Army Quartermasters Corps awards a medal named after him, 'The military order of Saint Martin.' Saint Martin is supposed to have died on November 11, 397. Historians say that the day is uncertain, but the date has taken on absolute certainty as the Feast of Saint Martin because it coincides with the date of the armistice ending World War I."
Is he implying that the Church never celebrated the Feast of St. Martin on Nov. 11th until after WWI? Is that true? He makes it sound like the Church changed her calendar to fit with the secular celebration as opposed to the Fisheaters implication that Wilson set Armistice Day to secularize the feast. |
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Interesting wording. Europe has been celebrating the feast of St. Martin on November 11, long before the formation of the United States. He died in 397, and his cult began even while he was living. His story is written in the medieval Golden Legend and has been reverenced for centuries.
What the author might be trying to say is that St. Martin died on November 8, but his funeral in Tours was celebrated on November 11. The Church's feast reflects the day of the funeral.
Over the centuries the Church has refined the calendar, trying to give the feast of the saint usually fixed to the day he/she died--his/her birthday of sanctity (first day in heaven). But there are many ancient saints whose feast day can be all sorts of days -- transferring of relics, actual birth, death, canonization, dedication of a patron Church, funeral--I'm not sure of all the possibilities. Sometimes a saint would have more than one feast. There has been much tweaking and changing over the years.
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MaryM
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I'm glad Jenn answered - I was going to say the same thing about the feast having been celebrated in Europe on Nov. 11 since the Middle Ages. The author's claim is strange. I had no idea that St. Martin's Feast/Veteran's Day was so potentially controversial  .
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Mary M. in Denver
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Lorri
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Rachel May wrote:
Today I was reading a book called "Nonviolence" by and anti-Catholic who also happens to be a complete idiot on other topics (IMHO).
Here is a quote from his book, "Saint Martin has become a kind of military figure, usually portrayed in armor. The U.S. Army Quartermasters Corps awards a medal named after him, 'The military order of Saint Martin.' Saint Martin is supposed to have died on November 11, 397. Historians say that the day is uncertain, but the date has taken on absolute certainty as the Feast of Saint Martin because it coincides with the date of the armistice ending World War I."
Is he implying that the Church never celebrated the Feast of St. Martin on Nov. 11th until after WWI? Is that true? He makes it sound like the Church changed her calendar to fit with the secular celebration as opposed to the Fisheaters implication that Wilson set Armistice Day to secularize the feast. |
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Good grief. Does this author also mention the other military orders that are named after saints? My dh was knighted into the Military Order of Saint George. I am in the Order of Saint Joan. Most of the other branches (those are for armor) have their own orders.
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Rachel May
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Thank you, Jenn, for the clarification! I knew that calendar changes happen but I wasn't sure if there was a change close enough to the end of WWI to make his claim have some plausibility or logic in his mind, kwim? This guy makes all sorts of bizarre claims about the Church, one of the best is that once Constantine made Christianity legal, the true followers of Jesus (the nonviolent ones) split from the Church which was a political pawn (eye rolling here). He seems very interested in history, but so many of his facts are questionable and it seems like he never read the Old Testament but speaks with authority about it.  It's too bad because I thought that a book on nonviolence would be a really interesting read.
He doesn't mention any of the other military orders named for saints, Lorri, although I suspected there must be. The paratroupers' have their devotion to St. Michael, and infantry and engineers to St. Barabara, so I suspected there may be more. Interesting topic, guys. As you say, Mary, who knew St. Martin's day was so controversial?
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Rachel
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Martinmas and Woodrow Wilson
