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Angie Mc
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Can anyone point me to primary Church sources that help guide a parishioner on what to do if there are problems with how the liturgy is being celebrated in their parish.
Are there secondary published sources on this topic that you would also recommend.
Love,
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Dear Angie,
Give Kim a moment and she'll chime in. And then Willa and MacBeth will too. I think we're all on the same page this summer. There are no coincidences.
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JennGM
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Angie,
I'm not any of the listed names above, but I wanted to clarify:
Are you trying to have the sources so the parishioner can show in black and white what is being done incorrectly, to use citations?
Is this specifically for liturgy in the Mass, or other sacraments or abuse through other ministers?
An organization that deals with liturgy, including abuses is Adoremus. Excellent source. If you take time to browse, they have listed many primary sources of the liturgical documents to refer to.
If it's a Canon Law problem, St. Joseph Foundation is an excellent source for help.
But I'll let the experts bring in the big guns....
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Elizabeth
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Jenn,
You are an expert .
While we are on the subject of experts, though, I want to encourage lots of questions as well as answers. No one expects expertise; often all we want is some place to think out loud. That said, it's important as we go forward to ALWAYS assume the best about each other.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MacBeth
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No big guns here, but Adoremus is exactly what I have been looking for (though I did not know it?). Thanks, Jenn!
We are blessed with a great parish, but as we travel a good deal, we have seen some bizarre liturgical abuses. I was discussing this with a friend the other day, and the question is, we agreed, if we are looking for abuses, are we distracted from Mass? And if we report the abuses, to whom do we turn, and will we end up labeled "trouble-maker!"? Don's answer is "parish shop," that is, visit several parishes to find the most faithful to the GIRM, but while that's easy in NY, where there are five parishes per square mile, in other places it is just not possible.
Ideas, anyone?
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JennGM
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Elizabeth wrote:
Jenn,
You are an expert. |
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 If that is so, only in a small area. I sit at your feet in your larger areas of expertise!! 
Elizabeth wrote:
| While we are on the subject of experts, though, I want to encourage lots of questions as well as answers. No one expects expertise; often all we want is some place to think out loud. That said, it's important as we go forward to ALWAYS assume the best about each other. |
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Well said, Elizabeth. This is a forum of peers...a place to be able to "think out loud"-- something for me, as a woman, I need to do quite frequently.
I'm so impressed on how charitable are all the conversations!!!
I forgot to add one GREAT source...I think Willa might have mentioned it in another thread: Catholics United for the Faith. Besides their website with great resources and their Faith Tracts, they will answer questions on phone or email for liturgical and theological questions. 1-800-MY-FAITH (1-800-693-2484). I know some of the people who answer the phone...one is a very good friend and he's very knowledgeable.
But the most important thing about the links I provided, is that they are all obedient to the Pope and the bishops and pastors...they will not try to make a stink or scandal.
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MaryM
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jenngm67 wrote:
| But I'll let the experts bring in the big guns.... |
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What are you talking about -you are one of the big guns, Jenn. I think there are probably many other people who have become "specialists" on this topic due to personal experiences with liturgy in their parishes or diocese.
And you already suggested the two organizations that I was going to post. They both have tons of information on their site and lots of original Church documents. We get the Adoremus Bulletin (it's free- just make a yearly donation). It is very helpful. Their back issues are archived I believe.
I want to elaborate on Jenn's question. Are you looking for the resources for proper liturgy or resouces for the steps to follow? There are lots of primary resources that I can think of that help a parishioner understand the proper rubrics of the liturgy to aid in presention/discussion on this matter with the parish or priest, but as far as directives to follow if there is a problem I really have only seen personal recommendations - probably which would be classified as secondary sources. I'm not sure.
The last Chapter in Mass Confusion has suggestions for steps to take. It a good resource in general as Jimmy Akin is always stressing being charitable and discerning when to take action.
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JennGM
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MacBeth wrote:
We are blessed with a great parish, but as we travel a good deal, we have seen some bizarre liturgical abuses. I was discussing this with a friend the other day, and the question is, we agreed, if we are looking for abuses, are we distracted from Mass? And if we report the abuses, to whom do we turn, and will we end up labeled "trouble-maker!"? Don's answer is "parish shop," that is, visit several parishes to find the most faithful to the GIRM, but while that's easy in NY, where there are five parishes per square mile, in other places it is just not possible.
Ideas, anyone? |
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That is the question on many people's minds. To what point of "abuses" do you tolerate? I don't like parish shopping...I believe in blooming where you are planted, but there is only so much I can tolerate.
If there is something wrong liturgically, I find the documents where it is clearly stated where a priest may be straying. Then I follow this line of correction: Start with fraternal correction...personally with the priest. If you can't talk to him, write a coherent letter...not accusing, but in a way pointing out the liturgical citations and what you observed. If things don't change, then move on to the bishop...the local chancery. Make copies of all letters and send to the Papal Nuncio and Rome. One of these sites talks about how to go about "Reporting abuses".
But there are times when some things are "quirky" and "annoying" and "distracting" but not necessarily an abuse.
Years ago my mother had some problems in a parish, but when she actually read Vatican II she was surprised to find out that the priest was right! Anyway, before you *THINK* you are right, it's best to read the liturgical directives yourself.
And another point before I get back to organizing my pantry...besides the papal documents, there are numerous USCCB documents. Many places in Canon Law and in GIRM there is a phrase such as "up to the episocopal conference." You need to find out if the local bishop (or US bishops) have allowed certain privileges or exceptions to the rule in a diocese or parish before you get labeled as a "trouble-maker!".
It's hard to keep up with all these things. We have a new GIRM...and the US bishops already petitioned to not make all the changes. So things like the Nicene Creed saying "We Believe" should be "I Believe" but we're not having that change! And don't even get me started about the translations by the ICEL!!!!!
Oh well....I know in other countries like France and the Netherlands it's even worse. Thank God for what I have.
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MaryM wrote:
The last Chapter in Mass Confusion has suggestions for steps to take. It a good resource in general as Jimmy Akin is always stressing being charitable and discerning when to take action.
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Who is this Jimmy Akin? I keep seeing links to him and wondering where is he from?
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MaryM
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jenngm67 wrote:
| Who is this Jimmy Akin? I keep seeing links to him and wondering where is he from? |
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He is a staff apologist for Catholic Answers and speaker/author. You can check out his info at Catholic Answers or visit his website.
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I think that we need to balance the idea of blooming where one is planted with the idea "how we worship is how we believe." To whom can we attribute that quote, by the way?
Last winter a woman from my parish called to report several "oddities" to our very conservative diocesan protector of liturgy His official title evades me now). He told her that while they were indeed odd practices, they were licit within the very broad parameters of Vatican II and the Novus Ordo GIRM. So, white dresses are not necessary for First Communion (and apparently may not be permitted in our parish next year), there is no bow to the tabernacle by the priest after communion, and the Mary statue (if there is one) is to be outside the sanctuary. All perfectly legal (and none as bad as Doritos for the consecration), but still there is a grievous loss of tradition. If we can't change such a parish, shouldn't we move so our children are able to grow up in a parish with tradition? or Tradition?
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MaryM
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This is the specific Faith Fact that applies most directly to this situation -Defending Our Rites - Constructively Dealing with Liturgical Abuse
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Wow! Great one! I just skimmed, but at the bottom the discussion questions are just what I'm thinking: 1. Frustrated? Distressed? Combative?
2. Vatican II teaches that the liturgy is the “source and summit” of the Church’s activity (Sacrosanctum Concilium 10). Do I attend Mass as a critic or do I offer any imperfections or abuses as a suffering in union with Our Eucharistic Lord, for the glory of God and the salvation of the world? Great food for thought!
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Elizabeth
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jenngm67 wrote:
| 2. Vatican II teaches that the liturgy is the “source and summit” of the Church’s activity (Sacrosanctum Concilium 10). Do I attend Mass as a critic or do I offer any imperfections or abuses as a suffering in union with Our Eucharistic Lord, for the glory of God and the salvation of the world? Great food for thought! |
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Hmmmm...then shouldn't we all just sit by and offer it up? Why write anyone when we can embrace a perfect opportunity at least once a week offer suffering? Notice I didn't say sit quietly by and offer it up. At my parish, no one is asked to be quiet. Conversation is encouraged .
I'm not sure we attend Mass as critics; I think maybe we are discouraged, distracted and saddened by what has been lost in the legacy of faith...
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JennGM
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Elizabeth wrote:
jenngm67 wrote:
| 2. Vatican II teaches that the liturgy is the “source and summit” of the Church’s activity (Sacrosanctum Concilium 10). Do I attend Mass as a critic or do I offer any imperfections or abuses as a suffering in union with Our Eucharistic Lord, for the glory of God and the salvation of the world? Great food for thought! |
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Hmmmm...then shouldn't we all just sit by and offer it up? Why write anyone when we can embrace a perfect opportunity at least once a week offer suffering? Notice I didn't say sit quietly by and offer it up. At my parish, no one is asked to be quiet. Conversation is encouraged .
I'm not sure we attend Mass as critics; I think maybe we are discouraged, distracted and saddened by what has been lost in the legacy of faith... |
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I guess it was food for thought for me...I've been one of those critics. I want things *MY* way...I want all the smells and bells and all t's crossed and i's dotted liturgically. And I want sacred music to be sacred like the Church intends. I have high ideals...and I love the old ways...that remind of our roots. The traditions that show that long line of Tradition.
But I can't get it all now where I am, and it never was that way all the time, even before Vat II. Even then there were priests that did things "their way" --like the quick, mumbling through Mass, no music (even though you are always SUPPOSED to have parts of the Mass sung...even now)....I could go on. And when the sermon was less than adequate...or a snoozer...or radical...I've been a critic.
It was good for me to see in print where I've reached in prayer...am I losing my cool and focusing on what Father is doing wrong and forgetting WHO is on that altar? I did that for a long time....
But I'm not saying to not fight the battles...and I don't think that CUF is saying that, either. Right now I'm blessed in my parish, but I know there are times you have legitimate battles. Just pray and study before going ahead.
I think this is written for those who always find things wrong...nitpickers. Elizabeth, you are loving and embracing. You accept things at your parish that I probably wouldn't have tolerated...so for you to be at a pivotal point...I think it's probably right.
And the choice of leaving due to the children seeing correct liturgy is a really huge weighing point. We went from parish to parish for that reason growing up. I probably will do it as our son grows up if problems crop up.
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OK...I didn't post when the topic of "parish (s)hopping" came up on a different thread last month - I did want to then, but with personal emotional issues I tend to sit on it and think for too long about what I want to say (or spend hours writing posts that never get finished or sent). I also hadn't posted as it seemed that the clear reaction to the idea of changing parishes due to problematic liturgy was highly frowned upon. Guess I felt a little judged.  But I have continued to think about it over the last month and ironically just read the section in Swimming With Scapulars about this topic. I had figured I would weigh back in to the earlier discussion and voila, here it comes again.
When discussing changing parishes I think many people do make that leap to thinking the changers are acting hastily, changing frequently (i.e. never happy with anything, following a particular priest, etc.). It is never an easy choice and it should not be frivolous. But having gone through it recently I can say that it is indeed a painful decision and not without some loss, but can also bring a peace and lots of gain. Elizabeth asked in the earlier thread which is more important -liturgy or community - and my first thought was why does one have to settle for less than both? Both are important parts of our Church. Even if one were to give up the immediate physical proximity of community there will be new community within another parish.
Our process of changing parishes became final about 2 years ago, but had been a decision that stretched out over almost 4 years before that of gradually less involvement and attending other Masses to be at peace during the liturgy. It was hard. We had attended this parish since we moved to Denver in 1989 so we were really part of the "community". The problems started slowly and were just little things here and there. During that time I didn't ever address it or challenge it as I felt not strong enough or academic enough to do so (these very educated liturgists have very powerful arguments for the "Spirit of Vatican II" and the early church traditions we are returning to) During that time I still could offer it up as "as a suffering in union with Our Eucharistic Lord, for the glory of God and the salvation of the world." It grew and grew until it became the straw that broke the camels back - you know the proverbial camel, the one who can't get through the eye of a needle.
Anyway, we were extremely involved in a variety of ministries and activities. In some ways that involvement made it harder because I had a very clear insiders view to the workings of the parish staff and their views/beliefs. I knew how they responded to people who were "conservative" or "traditional" and who did try to discuss any issues with them. We lost some parishioners who knew they were hitting their heads against a brick wall. They didn't care when people left - I believe they actually welcomed it because they were a "progressive" parish and then the troublemakers were gone. People were told very clearly by the pastor that he "hoped they could find a home here in this parish, but it wasn't going to be a perfect fit for everybody."
Jenn, has on a couple occasions pointed out the differences between illicit practices and invalid Mass. Thankfully we did always have a valid Mass so I could have said as long as that is happening we can live with it. But the list of liturgical abuses and irregularities grew. It started with removing the missals from the church building - not really a big deal because that isn't even a liturgical abuse or anything ("to help people focus more intently on the actions and words of the celebrant and ministers instead of reading"), but what it's actual purpose was to pave the way for making changes and most people wouldn't even notice something was different than what the rubrics said because they weren't following along.
I could list the variety of abuses and irregularities that eventually became commonplace but will refrain from that as I'm running long anyway. But it wasn't just that there were liturgical problems. We were encouraged as a community to "respect diversity" (you all know what that means). Orthodox Church teaching was not promoted, particularly on issues of sexual morality everything was always really vague and accepting of things we would consider immoral behavior. There was a disregard for the hierarchy and it was obvious that there was a lack of respect our archbishop(s)and the hierarchy in general.
I remember clearly the time when it finally became too much - during the homily the pastor said, in part "The archbishop has asked us to kneel during the Eucharistic prayers but I am the pastor and I will make the decision. (In our newly renovated building not all the pews/chairs had kneelers and the pastor/staff had told everyone to stand so we could have uniformity of posture - no one was to kneel). Many people had gone to the archbishop when there was no response at the parish level. Anyway he did eventually get all the kneelers fixed and assented to the archbishop's request but not before making it clear to the congregation his true feelings.
It has been mentioned in other discussions on the forum the idea of materials/curriculum making a difference in teaching. I can't remember who said it but it was about isn't it better to generally be exposed to the truth than having to correct the error. For us it became like that at Mass - I could have, myself, as formed Catholic taken the abuses/irregularities even the misleading/weak theology and offered it as suffering, but I was tired of having to after Mass point out error and teach truth so as not to have my children not be able to distinguish it in the Mass.
My parents were in a parish where they suffered greatly for a couple years. They continued to be members, to attend, to be involved and to support the parish (while also attending another parish for some peace during Mass and working with St. Joseph Foundation). But there were several families who did leave (and drive quite a distance since this is a rural area) because of the concern for forming their children. My parents as empty nesters could make a different choice than the one they would have made if they had children at home.
And as MacBeth pointed out in some areas where there are many parishes in a very small geographic area it is very easy to still be part of the small general community. I think you have many different issues where there are no alternatives anywhere nearby.
And that is the reason that even though the pastor at the original parish was transferred last year and some of the staff have moved on as well, we did not "jump back." (It's better but they still have many of the abuses). I don't think that hopping around is good. We have put down some roots in the new parish and those roots are growing.
Sympathies to you, Elizabeth, I think I know how your heart aches with the weight of this. It is such a hard place to be and there are no easy answers.
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Mary,
I have but a minute but I do appreciate your taking the time to write--I hear you loud and clear  . I was thinking of Angie, though, wehn I read your post. You are in Denver and you have options. I'm in ARlington and I have options. What if you have no ready options to church shop?
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Wow, Mary! Thanks for sharing your story. Growing up I have similar stories...in different cities. Like you said earlier
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| I think there are probably many other people who have become "specialists" on this topic due to personal experiences with liturgy in their parishes or diocese. |
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is so true. It's with great discernment, prayer and much heartache that one has to make that change. But in the search you learn a lot about the richnes of the Faith...and the rules and regs about liturgy, rubrics, etc.
Marym wrote:
| It has been mentioned in other discussions on the forum the idea of materials/curriculum making a difference in teaching. I can't remember who said it but it was about isn't it better to generally be exposed to the truth than having to correct the error. For us it became like that at Mass - I could have, myself, as formed Catholic taken the abuses/irregularities even the misleading/weak theology and offered it as suffering, but I was tired of having to after Mass point out error and teach truth so as not to have my children not be able to distinguish it in the Mass. |
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Just beautifully put! My family is very passionate, so there was the frequency of having to confess the loss of one's temper all the time! 
And just fighting the uphill battle is exhausting mentally, physically and emotionally...spiritually you're drained. And how can you teach your child the beauty of the Mass if they never see it?
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MaryM wrote:
It was hard. We had attended this parish since we moved to Denver in 1989 so we were really part of the "community". The problems started slowly and were just little things here and there. During that time I didn't ever address it or challenge it as I felt not strong enough or academic enough to do so (these very educated liturgists have very powerful arguments for the "Spirit of Vatican II" and the early church traditions we are returning to)
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This sounds very much like my situation, Mary. Prior to this experience, when I heard about "abuses" of liturgy, they were additions (like liturgical dance) or inappropriate substitutions (changing the words of the Eucharistic Prayer or the matter to be consecrated). But this, instead, is a stripping of liturgy to its most primitive form, while still being able to quote Vatican II and the Novus Ordo. There are no smells or bells, no statues or stained glass. There's a just a priest in sandals and the Eucahrist. And he can and does say that that is exactly the way it was right after Jesus died. While it saddens and discourages me and intinctively I'm very ill at ease, intellectually, I'm not equipped to explain my sense that something is very wrong.
Are there resources for this?
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Elizabeth:
I don't know if this will help -- why don't you invite Father to your house? If he sees how a prayer corner, statues, icons and holy pictures, and any other "trappings of our Faith" help to make your house a home, maybe he'll understand he needs to bring them back into the Church? I know this worked for my brother when he was in a similar situation.
Didn't then-Cardinal Ratzinger discuss this in his book Spirit of the Liturgy -- or one of his other writings on Mass? Maybe that too would help.
Praying for you --
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: liturgical help
