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Lisbet
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Did any of you read this article? What do you all think of this?
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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kingvozzo
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Wow! There's a lot to think about there, Lisa.
The example he gave about the woman with 7 children resonnated with me. My parents married in 1956, and were committed to following the Church's teaching on bc through their entire marriage. BF'ing was just so uncommon, there was no support for it. My oldest brother was born in 1956, my mom tried to nurse him, but she just didn't have any support to help her know it was 'working.' Her own mother knew nothing about it, except to think that it was a barbaric practice  .
But, I don't think just expanded teaching on BF'ing would have been enough. there was a lot of confusion during those times about birth control, and many people were told that the Church would be giving approval to the use of BC. Of course, the Holy Father, in his wisdom, went against the recomendations given to him and did NOT approve it.  But, many were led into confusion and in some ways, irrevocable practices.
A great article, thanks for linking!
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LisaR
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running out the door, but I love reading the references I've found over the years- that in Biblical times babies nursed to age 3 (Samuel, Mary, for examples) and if one studies family sizes of even 200 or 100 years ago, the families having many many kids close together were the ones who employed wet nurses. Fascinating!! St Catherine of Siena, had a wet nurse, and so did many of the saints we read about that had jsut HUGE families of 17, 19 kids.
If we say we want God to "plan our family" then should we not try to feed our babies as God planned as well?? Now granted, I am very very aware of moms whose fertility returns early, or moms who honestly cannot nurse, and even I myself have never nursed to 3 years old. But nursing til 3 years old would be the Biblical/"God Planned" thing to do!!
I teach NFP, and extended breastfeeding is a big part of what we talk about. I have had many frustrated calls from moms, who started out bottlefeeding their kids, or nursing and supplementing and end up with children spaced close together. Now that their kids are coming close, they want to go to "ecological breastfeeding" but feel they can't because it is much more mom/baby intensive than giving the baby a pacifier occasionally or letting the 7 y/o feed the occasional bottle to the baby, freeing mom up to tend to the one and two year olds!!
this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I have to run, but would love to chat more about it tonight!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
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Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
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kingvozzo
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LisaR wrote:
| If we say we want God to "plan our family" then should we not try to feed our babies as God planned as well?? |
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Interesting point, Lisa!
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Noreen
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Lisbet
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Yes, it's very near and dear to my heart also. I am very very much pro-breastfeeding. I have nursed many of my children for 3+ year. (2 years being the earliest that weaned (and self-weaned mind you!) and 5 years being the latest.) Never owned a bottle of a paci, babies are smashed in our bed at night right up against my bare chest, etc... and my fertility returns 12-16 weeks pp with conception very shortly there after.
I was actually very offended by Sheila Kippley's description of the 30 year old woman with 7 children that 'still had a pretty face but her legs were war-torn with vericose veins." What a very worldly view of what a woman 'should' look like.
I think it's a dangerous mentality to begin to equate having many children close together as either mom not breastfeeding as God intended or lack of self control on the husbands part.
Breastfeeding is certainly God's beautiful design for feeding babies, but we all need to keep in mind that child spacing is secondary.
This leads me to another question. I have not had time to think this through, but I'll throw it out there anyway:
Even if a woman formula feeds her baby from day one, and she and her husband concieve again right away, isn't God still the Creator of that next child? Following???
Quote:
I have had many frustrated calls from moms, who started out bottlefeeding their kids, or nursing and supplementing and end up with children spaced close together. Now that their kids are coming close, they want to go to "ecological breastfeeding" but feel they can't because it is much more mom/baby intensive than giving the baby a pacifier occasionally or letting the 7 y/o feed the occasional bottle to the baby, freeing mom up to tend to the one and two year olds!!
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I have to say, the words "end up" sound negative in tone in here. Like it's some kind of failure on the mothers part or something. What needs to be encouraged is not so much, "this is how you breastfeed properly to get the side effect of infertility" But, more like "children are blessings, Gifts from the Creator to be welcomed whether they come 5 years apart of 11 months apart."
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Lisbet
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Quote:
who employed wet nurses. Fascinating!! St Catherine of Siena, had a wet nurse, and so did many of the saints we read about that had jsut HUGE families of 17, 19 kids.
If we say we want God to "plan our family" then should we not try to feed our babies as God planned as well?? Now granted, I am very very aware of moms whose fertility returns early, or moms who honestly cannot nurse, and even I myself have never nursed to 3 years old. But nursing til 3 years old would be the Biblical/"God Planned" thing to do!!
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So, If I'm understanding this correctly, SAINT Catherine's mother was not following God's plan for her family??? If she had not employed a wet nurse (I am not certain of the accuracy of this.) then St. Catherine may not have been born. KWIM??
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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vmalott
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Lisa,
I'm of the same opinion as you and what you pointed out in the article is one of the reasons I finally let our membership to Couple to Couple League expire, never to be renewed.
Don't get me wrong, the Kippleys/CCL have done tremendous work in helping people to understand how fertility works and how beneficial ecological breastfeeding (and bf in general) is for both mother and child. Still, there has been that underlying tone that NFP and BF should be done in a certain way in order to be "responsible" parents. To me, that seems like a rather contraceptive, worldly mentality.
And, a slight correction...it was Mr. Kippley's observation of the young woman's legs, not Mrs. Kippley's. 
Valerie
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Valerie
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Martha
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vmalott wrote:
| I'm of the same opinion as you and what you pointed out in the article is one of the reasons I finally let our membership to Couple to Couple League expire, never to be renewed. |
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Yes, I felt the very same way. 
Your fertiliy has already come back?
Yes, it always comes back between 3 and 6 month pp.
Oh. Eat kale, check your thyroid, is the baby sleeping with? do you use a paci? doyou comfort nurse?
Like I'm defective?, kwim?
I was ecologicly bf-ing way before I even new what NFP and CCLI and eco bf even were. 
edit because I wasn't done! Bridget kicked the enter key!
I have precisely 3 spider veins.
As for this:
[quote/]What if she had given birth at two-year intervals instead of annually?[quote]
Why the obvious. She wouldn't have had several of her 7 children. I guess that's their point? That she'd have been better off without having had them??
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Martha
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kingvozzo
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I'm thinking out loud here, a typing one-handed, so bear w/ me. 
Lisbet wrote:
I was actually very offended by Sheila Kippley's description of the 30 year old woman with 7 children that 'still had a pretty face but her legs were war-torn with vericose veins." What a very worldly view of what a woman 'should' look like. |
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I really think he meant this from a health perspective. Varicose veins can be far more than a vanity issue.
Lisbet wrote:
| I think it's a dangerous mentality to begin to equate having many children close together as either mom not breastfeeding as God intended or lack of self control on the husbands part. |
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So true. Almost 50 yrs later and my mother still cries when she remembers telling my grandmother that she was pregnant for the 3rd time (with the baby only a few months old) and my grandmother saying that "any man that gets his wife pregnant so quickly is a s*x maniac." 
Lisbet wrote:
| Even if a woman formula feeds her baby from day one, and she and her husband concieve again right away, isn't God still the Creator of that next child? Following??? |
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Quote:
I have had many frustrated calls from moms, who started out bottlefeeding their kids, or nursing and supplementing and end up with children spaced close together. Now that their kids are coming close, they want to go to "ecological breastfeeding" but feel they can't because it is much more mom/baby intensive than giving the baby a pacifier occasionally or letting the 7 y/o feed the occasional bottle to the baby, freeing mom up to tend to the one and two year olds!!
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Lisbet wrote:
| I have to say, the words "end up" sound negative in tone in here. Like it's some kind of failure on the mothers part or something. What needs to be encouraged is not so much, "this is how you breastfeed properly to get the side effect of infertility" But, more like "children are blessings, Gifts from the Creator to be welcomed whether they come 5 years apart of 11 months apart." |
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I think the words "end up" is how many women feel when their children are very close together. You're absolutely right that all people need to be encouraged to view children as gifts from God, but society is so saturated with anti-family ideas, that it's difficult to reach them. Just like people view large families of NFP users are "method-failures" instead of cooperating with God's grace. They're coming from a different perspective. I think that's why sometimes the Kippley's tone is so pro-NFP. They're trying to reach people on a level they can understand. But they do make a point in their manual to caution against using NFP in a contraceptive way.
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Noreen
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kingvozzo
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Martha wrote:
Why the obvious. She wouldn't have had several of her 7 children. I guess that's their point? That she'd have been better off without having had them?? |
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I don't think that's what they're saying...I think he was trying to address the fear the mother was expressing. It's a fear that has driven many a previously faithful Catholic to rationalize birth control.
I think the "what if" they're suggesting is akin to my wondering what my life would be like if I hadn't had 3 miscarriages. My daughter would certainly not be here. I can't imagine life w/o her, but what are my other children like?
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Martha
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kingvozzo wrote:
| I don't think that's what they're saying...I think he was trying to address the fear the mother was expressing. It's a fear that has driven many a previously faithful Catholic to rationalize birth control. |
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But he doesn't address her fears. Not at all. How does saying, "Well if she'd used NFP or eco-bf she wouldn't have 7 closely spaced kids." address her fears in a catholic manner??
I hear this all the time. "What if.."
I do NOT tell them, "Well if you'd just known NFP better back then you wouldn't have to worry."
I tell them:
God provides.
You won't regret having them, but you might regret not having them.
You're family will adjust with each birth just like it did when you brought home the 2nd or 3rd baby. You can't imagine it anymore than you could then, but it will happen.
I remind them that getting pregnant is a sign of HEALTH! Usually if a women is truely unhealthy, she's more likely to have a problem conceiving than to have a difficult pregnancy. Not always, but usually.
I remind them that they shouldn't take fertility for granted. I don't care how many kids a person has, it's a gift that doesn't last. Not every encounter will get a pregnancy and, sadly, many pregnancies do not mean they will bring home a baby.
And yes, I tell them that if they need NFP, the Church okays that option too.
to me, this is like the harried homeschooler scenario. I'm sure you ladies know what i mean?
Your mil or neighbor or whoever it is for you hears you voice a worry or concern about homeschooling or you simply had a bad day. Is it addressing your issue to say, "Well send them to public/private school then!"
Most would say that doesn't address homeschool mom's situation.
That's how I felt about his comment. I don't know how else to describe it.
I get that they are trying to reach out to the contracepting folks in the world, but there's many a time when it seems they are trying so hard that it's hard to tell the difference in the mentality behind the methods.
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Martha
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LisaR
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[
I have to say, the words "end up" sound negative in tone in here. Like it's some kind of failure on the mothers part or something. What needs to be encouraged is not so much, "this is how you breastfeed properly to get the side effect of infertility" But, more like "children are blessings, Gifts from the Creator to be welcomed whether they come 5 years apart of 11 months apart." [/QUOTE]
No, I did not mean "failure" in any way, but just that that is what has happened.
I do think, without being argumentative, we all could take a step back and look at what our bodies are really "called" to do. If we look at it totally biologically (The way God made us) he made most of us to have SOME sort of breastfeeding absence of periods. Now, not all of us are the same, but the majority have a "breather", naturally, .
If we look to biblical times and the records from as far back as we can, most women did not actually have very very large families. sadly, there were more deaths of course, but also the average return to fertility was about 24 months. average, and again, I am not trying to slam anyone who "does it all like 2000 years ago and it does not "work" that way for them.
Just as we might get sucked into the culture of our times and parent certain ways, there was quite a time period where wealthy women jsut DID NOT nurse, and employed wet nurses. God of course can still allow grace and many wonderful things to occur despite perhaps a chilce that was not necessariy what he intended, or what he created us for. (in general, to bear and ALSO nourish children, for most of us)
side note:
I have been seen by vascular surgeons multiple times. I have almost died due to blood clots and other issues. My legs do look "war torn" and it is NOT cosmetic. I could care less what they look like, but when I cannot move after the 3rd month of pregnancy, and now after 2 hours on my feet I have to lie down due to risk factors - I have to say I can relate. I am 36 and even my non perscribing Birth control doctor told me my legs are like a 90 year old womans.
I just wish there was more "connectedness" between the "providentialist" type and the wholistic breastfeeding type, kwim?? because honestly, I don;t see how in general, you can have one without the other very well....
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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LisaR wrote:
[
I do think, without being argumentative, we all could take a step back and look at what our bodies are really "called" to do. If we look at it totally biologically (The way God made us) he made most of us to have SOME sort of breastfeeding absence of periods. Now, not all of us are the same, but the majority have a "breather", naturally, . |
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whoops! I meant absence of ovulation. and, lying down and resting/sleeping with baby is what studies have shown (secular studies) as to what USUALLY can occur. I suppose that is what I meant about the mom "ending up" with using bottles, or a paci, or whatever. She is obviously very very busy with lots of other little ones who need her. Not better or worse, just different.
A mom who lies down to nurse ends up secondarily "Phyching out " her body into believing she still needs to be in "rest mode" and therefore, ovulation is usually surpressed.
Orthodox Jews know this, from centuries and centuries ago, and this is why for a time they allowed "polygamy" to build up the children of Israel. One woman just could not have babies fast enough!
In biblical times, nursing moms WERE working running the home, and yet they were also pampered by extended family that they lived with, older aunts, mothers, etc, cooking, cleaning and so on. Every aspect about "running a home" did not fall on an isolated family unit. Therefore, the mom did have natural resting spaces in which to nurse her child for extended times.
We see this in third world countries even to this day.
It is hard when we collide all of this with our western busy-ness....
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Lisbet
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Quote:
| just wish there was more "connectedness" between the "providentialist" type and the wholistic breastfeeding type, kwim?? because honestly, I don;t see how in general, you can have one without the other very well.... |
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I'm inclined to think there is more 'connectedness' then you think, I'm also inclined to believe that there are many more of us like Martha and I, that feed and nourish our babes "like God intended" yet also have many babies close in age. (A HUGE blessing in my eyes!  )
It's all about the mindset...
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Maryan
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I have too much to say -- but a family who needs me more.
I agree -- I don't like the underlying tone. It's bothered me from the first time I read a Kippley book.
Children and fertility are always blessings. If we all sang that song loud enough maybe the world's view would change. It's amazing what a viewpoint can do for a person.
ETA: And I agree with Valerie that I'm sure they have done MUCH good for many. These are my personal feelings to the tenor of the articles that I read.
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Lisbet
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I'm sorry I wanted to clarify my point on being more connectedness then one may think... It's the assumption that those of us with many babies close together do not mother our babies they way God intended, that we don't rest enough, that we don't eat the right things, etc.. This assumption is why it seems that 'providentialits' and ecological breastfeeding/natural mothering are disconnected.
I eat very healthy, I am a very very healthy 32 year old woman, I get a nice catnap each day with my 2 babies nursing. I am uber pampered by my older children and my husband I have been tandem nursing for 10.5 years now (with a few years of triple nursing thrown in there) We currently have 3 babies in our bed at night, 2 of them nursing often right next to me. And praise God, despite all of that He still blesses me, often, with more and more babies! :)
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Martha
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Lisbet wrote:
Quote:
| just wish there was more "connectedness" between the "providentialist" type and the wholistic breastfeeding type, kwim?? because honestly, I don;t see how in general, you can have one without the other very well.... |
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I'm inclined to think there is more 'connectedness' then you think, I'm also inclined to believe that there are many more of us like Martha and I, that feed and nourish our babes "like God intended" yet also have many babies close in age. (A HUGE blessing in my eyes! ) |
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I agree. In fact, I have no idea what the difference between them is!
And I get rather tired of hearng how they didn't have large families because they bf better or whatever in the past and in 3rd world countries. Gee, like it didn't have anything to do with nutrition, medical care, and lifestyle?? Also, we know very little about how many m/c and lost babies they had because it was "just life" and usually there isn't much mention of those things.
It's also irrelivant, imho, unless one really thinks we would be better off living as though we are in 3rd world countries?
Even so, we're talking averages, which is almost useless to me. I'd be far more interested int eh MEDIAN of return to fertility. I'd be willing to bet it's no where near 2 years?
ug a whole other catagory of topic there to google.
back to the question at hand. seriously, I have no idea what you mean by a connection between providentialist and wholistic (sp - holistic?)? To me, they are the same thing...
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SuzanneG
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I have felt this....whether or not it's self-imposed, I don't know. I have often felt like I should wear a sign on my forehead that says, "YES, I am nursing!"
And, do actually do all of the 12(?) things in Kippley's book, with the exception of napping EVERY day. I still start cycling at 4,4,3 and 3 months post partum.
I have always felt "unusual" and weird for having dc so close in age… Until I came here, of course, and saw Martha, Lisa, Maryan's, etc......signatures with the ages/years of your dc. My dc are 17,15, 27, and now 26 months apart. Now, I know, I’m actually just a lite-weight.
I have the same sentiments as Maryan……the Kippley book has bothered me a bit, but I never thought about it enough to figure out why.
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LisaR
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I'm not quite sure what the purpose of this thread is? To be honest, we are not big fans of the Kippley's, and in fact with thousands of others, worked to distance ourselves from some of what he taught/wrote about.
I just jumped in here because I honestly have a great love for studying the relationship between childbearing and nursing throughout the centuries. The sociologist in me just drolls over the personal stories/accounts, as well as the statistics, averages, etc!!
I've collected info with moms permission from about 100 women, and it really is just amazing how we were made.
So, I was just sharing some of that.
Families are great,terrific, and wonderful! Big, Extra Huge, small, and all sizes in between.
The only thing I was pondering is what can we learn from History/Christ's time? How can we live like that today? What does being open to life mean, and should it mean, when possible, breastfeeding as well?
and Martha, I know many many women who are providentialists and their babies/toddlers have bottles. Many around here are not Catholic, they nurse very briefly if at all, but it is not uncommon for 3 kids to have bottles and pacifiers, kind of like a "babywise" type mentality....
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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[QUOTE=Lisbet] This assumption is why it seems that 'providentialits' and ecological breastfeeding/natural mothering are disconnected.
QUOTE]
again, I was not assuming. these are all real women that I know...
and I am not going to join in this dialogue anymore. I really don't see where the anger is coming from.
and maybe there isn't any, I just am being sensitive?? I'm in a different place than many of you, on the front lines so to speak of dealing with the 97% of the population who contracepts/sterilizes. I am dealing with severe health issues as well. I am working with and rejoicing!! over couples having their marriages convalidated in the Church, taking the plunge to have a THIRD!! child, having sterilization reversals, etc..
Believe me, I have had my share of rude comments, that we were not Catholic enough because our kids all seem very "worldly" spaced three years apart. Oh how it hurts to be told over and over again that we'd "better catch up" and so on.
Or that we've been snubbed because we terach NFP, (one homeschool mom wouldn't let her daughter babysit for us when we taught, she thought it was "evil")
and we obviously "must practice NFP to an extreme,"
Peace of Christ,
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: NFP and Breastfeeding
