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LucyP
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Okay, sorry if this is as incoherant as we feel right now, but dh and I went to see the parish today to say we wanted to become Catholics.
From the start we felt uncomfortable and awkward and as it made us both "clam up" and we both feel we didn't do a good job at expressing ourselves and where we are spiritually, so we came over as tentative, vague and foolish.
I've been told we can't go the other parish in the city, and so this priest and this church are the only option unless we move - which would leave us without a job for dh, so not going to happen.
We knew we'd have to take a course, but we feel there are many obstructions to it, principally because we are adopting this autumn and can't leave the new child with anyone else, we can't actually do the course and it won't then run again until autumn 2009 from what he said. Which would mean we could convert in easter 2011! I keep checking my dates but that seems to the case. I can't believe we'd have to go without the joy and comfort of communion for so long. Or the children unbaptised so long.
Father said some things that troubled us, seeming to reflect a more relative and laid back approach to objective divine Truth and revelation than we have and than we had hoped for.
We walked away thinking what is the point of any faith, let alone Catholicism. We knew it wouldn't be a case of "sign on the dotted line", but we also didn't think we would feel so unwanted and that so many obstacles would be put in our way. Father basically said that anglo-catholics believe all the same things anyway, and that the church recognises anglican orders in fact if not in law - and as we can worship as we like there, believe the catholic cathechism and take communion daily rather than wait for 4 years....well, we are just so confused!
What both of us are so attracted to in the church is the sense that it comes from Peter, and that it has Truth, authority, tradition, dignity, the power to bind and loose etc. We love how devout and holy and learned and authorative Pope Benedict seems to be, and we want to be part of a church that holds to the Truth. But now we clearly understand that not every priest expresses the same view.
Do priests deliberately try to put you off? Is there some way we could take a residential course, or ask them to be more family friendly so we could take the children - there is no way we could arrange child care that would meet the children's and our needs and the legal requirements post-adoption placement for 52 weeks. Is it possible to say pay a retired priest to teach us whatever we need to know so we could do it during the day or take our children? Apparently we have to discuss all these issues, but we believe in the cathechism and don't know what else we need to believe in or discuss. The other parish wouldn't even allow me to talk to them, when they asked where we live, and in our parish there is just one priest doing 4 priests' jobs.
Sorry this is so long. We had really prayed for clarity and a sense of purpose, and now we feel totally despairing and that we will just have to "Settle" for the anglo-catholic tradition...I've edited this as during prayers this morning I felt a sense that I had been wrong to just spill everything out without consideration and had, without meaning to, been very critical of the priest concerned.
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lapazfarm
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This is absolutely not normal. At all!
Mind boggling is what it is.
When I converted 15 years ago, our priests and everyone involved bent over backward to see that we as a family were made welcome, with everything we needed including child care, food, etc.
The fact that the priest says that what the church says and what it does are 2 different things is particularly disturbing. Huge problems there right from the start.
Perhaps someone nearby who is knowledgeable about more orthodox churches in your area could point you to a better option.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
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MaryM
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Oh Lucy, I'm so sorry for the pain that this caused you and your husband. I remember in your intro you expressed your family's desire to enter the Catholic Church. That is so exciting. Let me say that, no, this is not a typical approach or attitude of the Catholic Church. I'm always saddened when I hear of a situation where this happens. But it illustrates an unpleasant reality - that even in the Church some of its priests may not be very pastoral or welcoming. It's hard to know what may have been going on for this priest or why he reacted this way. It does sound like he is very busy and likely stressed which could be a factor, I would think.
There is a process (RCIA – Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults) that generally starts in the fall and does consist of weekly classes until the Easter Vigil though some parishes may extend that time frame. Not sure why they would skip a year before another class starts unless they don't have many candidates and want to wait to have a larger group. To me that makes no sense - like you said you want to be able to partake in the sacramental life of the Church as soon as possible.
I am not really clear on the canon law regarding parish membership and boundaries. It’s confusing and seems to be handled different in different diocese though it should be uniform in regards to Canon Law. Jenn and Michele are better versed in these matters so hopefully will enter the discussion. Here is a question and reference to the Code of Canon law on that matter. I think it varies from diocese to diocese and parish to parish how they respond to parish boundary and registration issues. In our diocese you are able to register and receive sacraments at parishes that are not necessarily your parish of domicile. It sounds like the parishes in your area are requiring residence in the boundaries.
Some thoughts though somewhat scattered:
Does this parish have a Directory of Religious Education (DRE)? That person is generally the one who runs the RCIA classes and handles inquiries into joining the Church. If so, talking to that person would be a good place to start to clarify the steps and process at this parish.
Maybe following up with your visit with a letter to this priest would help - outlining your sincere desire to become members of the Catholic Church. Often writing is an easier way to communicate and gives you the opportunity to clarify your thoughts and feelings in a less uneasy setting.
Contacting the diocesan offices and finding out your options for attending, registering, receiving sacraments of initiation in regards to parish boundaries.
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Mary M. in Denver
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Kathryn UK
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Lucy ... don't panic! This priest is just plain wrong. Scandalously wrong. The Catholic Church has its share of wonderful priests, bad priests, and plain indifferent priests. Ditto, good, bad and indifferent parishes. There is a lot of mediocrity out there, and I'm afraid you just ran into it. The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is worth persevering for, so hang in there.
Yes, of course you can convert without having to do it through this particular parish and priest. The usual route to reception of the sacraments is through RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults) - that would be the course you have been offered, but to say you cannot be received into the Church without it is incorrect. Not all parishes run it, and there is absolutely no reason why you cannot receive instruction from another priest. The question is, how to to get round, over or through this stumbling block ...
If you like I will ask on the UK Catholic homeschooler's list if anybody knows a good priest in your area (city beginning with N, ending with H, yes?). If I were you and your dh, I would also write a letter of complaint to the bishop. A very strong letter of complaint.
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MichelleW
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Lucy,
We ran up against something similar years ago when dh was interested in converting. At the time we were so flustered and flomaxed that we didn't know what to do and ended up doing nothing. Since then, I have found that boundary lines are generally used for planning purposes but that you can choose to go anywhere. Church hopping is discouraged, but it is certainly permitted to choose a parish to which you plan to commit.
I would encourage you to take a deep breath and visit the other parish.
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Michelle
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LucyP
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Dear Ladies, thank you for your kind words. Please pray for us. Oscar and I have just been talking about it all non-stop and are so confused. It would be so much easier in so many ways to stay put in the anglo-catholic church but we have this other pull. It is all very bewildering.
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MaryM
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And I'm so glad that Kathryn jumped in with some thoughts since I wrote from a US based experience without really thinking. Kathryn has a better handle on sacramental initiation for England. I was speaking knowing how it is generally handled in the US (though we are a universal church, each country's bishops handle some aspects differently). I'm hopeful she can help you find some local resources to support you in this inquiry process. I will be praying for that and for you and Oscar.
And in my haste to respond initially I really just addressed the welcoming and class issue. I sort of spaced what you said the priest said regarding doctrinal and theological issues. What you indicated was said is not correct. There are many priests out there that did not receive sound formation and I have heard some who basically say what you indicated. It is unfortunate. Yes, there is Truth and you are being drawn to the fullness of that Truth. Persevere and again know our prayers are with you.
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Mary M. in Denver
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mary theresa
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I'm so sorry I don't have any advice. i was so sad for you after reading your post! I wish I could send one of the wonderful vibrant sound priests we know your way!
But know that I am praying for you Lucy! The devil puts many obstacles in the way of the path to Truth. You CAN find out how to get around this priest and his incorrect information. persevere!
God bless you!
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Mary Theresa
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stefoodie
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I don't have any advice, but lots of prayers for you and your family.
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stef
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isjalu0826
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I was thinking the same thing about sending a wonderful priest your way myself!
It vexes me how recklessly someone representing our wonderful faith can represent it in such a way. I'm glad that he didn't turn you off completely. Imagine those weaker souls who might have been if encountering someone like that.
Wonder if you caught him on an off day...
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isjalu0826
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And why can't you go to a parish in another part of the city? I know years ago it was like that, esp in big cities in Philadelphia and such, but I didn't think it was still like that.
At my parish, we have people who come from at least 4-5 different cities... cities with plenty of parishes to choose from! We are all on the roster as parishioners. All are welcome...
I don't understand why the other parish would turn you away.
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Helen
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Lucy, if anything, this is a sign of your strong Faith and ability to persevere!
I hope Kathryn can lead you to another place. Hang in there!!!
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doris
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I'm in a great rush but am horrified and saddened for you. There are lots and lots of holy priests who would welcome you home with open arms. If you are able to travel then, for example, I know some people in Cambridge that you could try. I'll pm you later.
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KackyK
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Lucy I am can only imagine how discouraged you must feel. I converted about 17 years ago and if I was met with what you described...I'd be worried and afraid and confused too.
We go to a church out of our boundaries, I called the church when we moved here to ask if they would accept someone who lived where we do. They said yes no problem. I've heard of overcrowded churches only taking those in the boundaries...but that is for an obvious reason.
Plus...you know what would be really really ideal...do you know anyone who goes to either of the churches in your town?? Maybe if you spoke to someone, they can sort of personally direct you to who to contact or which priest to approach (if the parish has more than one priest)and sometimes that "middle" person can help you sort of transition (did that make sense?).
Oh and here's one more thing...I don't know where you live...but is there a university nearby? I converted while attending school and there were local residents (not university students) who were apart of the church on campus and in the RCIA program. I think the campus programs are not going to be as "hardnosed" so to speak.
It's so frustrating to hear about as I know our parish priest loves anyone who is considering conversion...he bends over backwards and sideways for them!!! And especially when there are children involved who need to be baptised!
I don't know if any of that is worth anything...but just some thoughts on how NOT to have to go through what you have already been through.
Please don't give up! We'll all be praying for you!
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KackyK
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CKwasniewski
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Lucy,
I'm so sorry for you and your dh!
It's just terrible that you had to deal with this.
I am sure there will be another option. God will provide a way to bring you to the Sacraments! He wants you there so much....
If you are anywhere near Oxford, I can recommend a dear priest friend there.
Praying for you both.
blessings,
CK
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RyaneM
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Lucy,
Just wanted to offer my prayers and tell you that I came into the Church in 2005 and brought my son with me every week to RCIA. He was about 6 months old when I started RCIA and a year at the time of the Easter vigil. Perhaps the RCIA leaders there will permit you to bring your child as well.
Sorry I can't offer more advice. I hope and pray that others in the UK are able to assist you. Keep your head up and try not to get discouraged as a result of this unfortunate incident.
If God led you to it, he will lead you through it.
much peace,
Ryane
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doris
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Right, I'm still awake and a bit more coherent now.
I've never heard of a DRE in an English parish, so that's not an option. However, it would be well worth exploring elsewhere. I didn't do RCIA when I converted 12 years ago. I just went to see a lovely Dominican priest once a week, and he led me through a wonderful, thorough explanation of Church teaching, one to one. He did the same for my friend, and my husband, too. (This was in Oxford btw.) When we went to Cambridge, we knew of several people who went down the same route, but via the University Chaplain. There's a different one now, and I suppose you might feel a bit random asking him if you've no connection with the place (not to mention logistical difficulties).
If you like, I can phone or email our lovely parish priest in Cambridge (which I think is in the same diocese as you -- if I'm guessing right!) and see if he knows of any nearby parishes which might be more promising. Pm me if you want me to. You could also try any local religious communities (I think the nearest Dominicans would be in Cambridge but there must be others around).
Hang in there. Praying for you.
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Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days
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LucyP
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Thanks for all the help and advice ladies.
Yesterday we did nothing but talk about this. We spent three hours sitting in the bathroom while dh's bathwater went cold hammering it all out over and over. Oz is so worried about our out-of-control stress levels, with both this and the eternal implications for us and our children, and the adoption to deal with at the same time. In the end, as I was sobbing and saying maybe it is all wrong and we shouldn't even keep on torturing ourselves trying to be Christians, he had a moment of - I don't know - true intimacy with God and wisdom to share God with me in a way that reminds me why people feel he has a call to the anglican priesthood, and really helped and comforted me.
What he has decided is that we will stay where we are in the anglo-catholic church. The one we attend is one without women "priests" and has been a refuge to us. We can carry on taking communion 6 days a week if we want, rather than starve for the Lord for years to come, and as he said right now we badly need that nourishment and communion with Christ. We can have our children baptised and we can carry on teaching them from the catholic cathechism and, as we are catholic in our hearts, for now that will have to do and we can join the ranks of the anglo-catholic papalists.
Perhaps later, when circumstances change, we can convert. But now, years of waiting will just rot our souls. We perhaps have a high view of the sacraments and feel they are essential and not just a nice cherry on the cake - just "going to church" is not enough, going and observing a mass is helpful and healing to an extent, but for us the eucharist is the centre and the fount of blessings. We feel we would just spiritually starve without it.
It's not the decision I'd wanted but now it is made, there is so much peace in our home. And faith is sustaining again.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Is this normal in the RC church?
