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Jordan
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| Posted: July 20 2007 at 9:15am | IP Logged
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Does anyone have advice for helping a two year-old whose been parented to sleep since birth learn to fall asleep on his own? I don't mind the principle of continuing to put my son to sleep, but it's taking so long and often the end result is an exhausted kid who wakes as soon as he's put down and I can't get him back to sleep. I would say that I am spending up to an hour putting him down for a nap and one to two and-a-half hours putting him down at night. We are very consistent with our timing and routine. We have a quiet house at sleep time, white noise, a dark room, stories, keeping activities calm before sleep, etc... I feel like I've done everything I know to do to provide a conducive sleep environment.
My husband and I want more children very much but I can't do it this way again. We've put off having a third because ds's demands on my time when he needs to sleep are so great, I don't know how I could manage a baby too. Oh, and did I mention how long I spend putting him down at night? That's not helping the third baby thing either. We want to have a big family but I don't know how on earth I'm going to care for older children and spend time with my husband, when my babies take so long to put to sleep. Even now, I feel like I can't do it another day but I don't know what choices I have. I've tried to stick to the recommendations of Dr. Sears and Elizabeth Pantley. Pantley's recommendations are great but my son is so determined to get his way that we haven't made much progress.
Today, after an active morning, a calm lunch, and our regular nap routine, I sat to nurse my son to sleep and he soon fell asleep on my lap. When I moved him to his crib, he woke up and wouldn't lie back down to sleep. He didn't want me to lie down with him either and I didn't know what to do. I decided to leave him in his crib and see if he would feel tired and lie down and put himself back to sleep. Sometimes when I put him down, he'll rouse a little bit and then settle back down to sleep, so I know he can. I stayed in a chair in the room with him while he cried for over an hour. He was really mad. (I am embarrassed to admit this since I've always been so against kids crying to sleep.) I was quiet and very still. He figured out how to climb out of the crib and so towards the end, it was really just about me pulling him off the edge of the crib before he fully managed to get out. I realized at that point that it was completely pointless since he would do nothing else but try to get out. He is a very determined and strong-headed little fellow. Will he eventually just fall asleep on his own if I keep putting him in his bed and staying with him? I know he's tired--he just doesn't give up on trying to be picked up or climbing out of the crib.
I am feeling lost and frustrated. My daughter was a struggle to get to sleep as a young toddler but at 20 months, she weaned and then started putting herself to sleep like a pro, following our regular sleep times and routines. I put her in her crib, stayed in the room, and she would just talk to herself for a long time and then fall asleep. At 4.5, she's an excellent sleeper, giving me no sleep troubles at all.
I'm wondering if weaning my son would help. I'm not enjoying the nursing relationship anymore and he only nurses at naptime and bedtime. I've been wishing he'd wean for a while now but since it's how I get him to sleep, I've continued. He doesn't ask to nurse at any other time and he doesn't nurse during the night. Oh, and I know he can fall asleep without nursing. We will bring him into bed at night and he doesn't nurse to sleep then. Also, on the nights when I put him down in his crib and he wakes up and won't lie back down on his own, I'll pick him up and we'll lie down together on a twin size bed in the same room. Usually he'll fall asleep beside me there, though this all takes a very long time.
I know I probably sound foolish and pathetic but that's pretty much how I feel anyhow. I would be grateful for any tips you all may have.
Thank you.
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Jordan
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Meredith
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| Posted: July 20 2007 at 10:05am | IP Logged
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Oh Jordan, first of all BIG BIG  s I can so totally empathize with you and you are in NO WAY sounding foolish or pathetic, believe me, been there already!!
One thing that has really worked with my little guys once they hit about 20 to 22months or so, is start transitioning them to a *big boy bed*! I could NEVER successfully put a child down into a crib after nursing to sleep, it just rarely worked, and they are plenty safe on a mattress on the floor (even at a year) Think of the Infant Montessori ideas. You can even put up one of those guard rails for a while if you want. Ours is right next to our bed in the master on the floor with enough room for me to walk between. He has his naps there and I usually put him down to sleep there initially at night, and then bring him into bed with me when he awakens at some point in the night. It's not fool-proof, but this method has seemed to work very well for ours, and they are/were all VERY attachment parented from birth.
I will offer my Rosary for you today sweet lady! It's so hard to function on so little sleep, and I can fully relate to having a strong-willed little person running your life. Can Daddy try and put him down?? I think I recall he's travelling a good bit (like my dh is away much of the time) so this may not be an option and one of the reasons your ds is having such a hard time with sleep. Could there be any dietary changes lately that may be affecting his attitude or sleep?? Just tossing out some ideas. Holding you in my thoughts today!
Many blessings and try to nap with him when you get a chance and catch up on sleep.
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mathmama
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| Posted: July 20 2007 at 11:11am | IP Logged
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I didn't read your whole post, so I am sorry if this is irrelevant. But, I was having a similar problem when my dd was about 25 months. It took me a good hour to get her to sleep at both naptime and bedtime. We cut out the nap and it made all the difference. I guess she just didn't need the nap anymore. Now bedtime takes no more than 30 minutes, but often less than 15 (this is after we finish reading 1 book of her choice). Of course, there are some days when she needs a nap for whatever reason and I have found bedtime to be longer on those days, but otherwise it has been perfect.
Beth
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mary theresa
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| Posted: July 20 2007 at 12:21pm | IP Logged
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Jordan! You poor thing.
Try this program www.sleepsense.net
It was devised by a mother of 3 and she seems so kind and gentle yet very practical.
This helped me so much with my totally exhaustingly frustrating dds sleep problems and I hope it can help you.
The program (which is emailed to you) costs $47. That is kind of pricey, but I was desperate so I didn't care! 
It took around a month or two with my daughter to see the improvement, but she is a great sleeper now.
Sorry, this post is choppy, I'm in a rush.
Just ask me if you want any more info or impressions about the program, if you are interested.
Hope this helps!
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Mary Theresa
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Jordan
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| Posted: July 20 2007 at 3:55pm | IP Logged
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Thank you all for your responses!
Meredith, thank you for your prayers and thank you for mentioning the mattress. We actually have both available and tend to use them both, depending on whether ds will be put down (in crib) or needs someone to lie beside him (on mattress). Did you lie down with your dc on the mattress, put them to sleep elsewhere and then transfer them, or did they just lie there on their own and go to sleep? We actually just brought out the crib (a pack n' play) a few months ago because my dd learned to put herself to sleep when I put her in one as a toddler. I was hoping for similar results with my little guy.
Beth, that's nice that you're getting your dd to sleep in less time at night. Are you nursing her to sleep at night and she still goes to sleep so quickly? Wow! I do think my little one still needs his nap.
Mary Theresa, thank you for your recommendation on the Sleep Sense Program. I spent quite some time looking at that this evening. It does look promising but she doesn't reveal much about her method in her promo. Do you know if she offers ideas that are much different than Elizabeth Pantley's? How gentle did you find her approach to be? That's wonderful that you dd is a great sleeper now, especially with your new baby coming in December.
Tonight, dh put the boy to sleep. We went out for a quick dinner and when we came home, I just dropped dh and the kids off. I kissed the kids goodnight and let them watch me drive away. My son just watched me go with this confused blank expression that is etched in my mind right now. We knew he wouldn't settle for dh if I was anywhere around and we know from experience that I have to leave well before the lights go out. I felt bad about leaving dh with the kids to get them dressed for bed all by himself, but hey, I do it all the time. I drove down the street and parked for about an hour and a half before I came back home. The house has been silent since I came home since dh fell asleep alongside the boy. I don't even know how things went. We're hoping that if he can get used to his dad putting him to sleep, maybe we can shorten the amount of time it takes to put him to sleep. I don't know if full weaning will happen. I have mixed feelings about that. I know he's old enough but it just a chapter closed, and that makes me a little bit sad. I'm not sure about how i will handle naptime yet since dh can't help then. His work schedule is unpredictable but we're hoping he can be around to help in the evenings for a couple of weeks.
Thanks so much for your input. I welcome more if anyone else has any.
God bless.
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Jordan
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Meredith
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| Posted: July 20 2007 at 6:04pm | IP Logged
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Jordan wrote:
| Did you lie down with your dc on the mattress? |
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Yes, always!
Jordan wrote:
| Tonight, dh put the boy to sleep. We went out for a quick dinner and when we came home, I just dropped dh and the kids off. I kissed the kids goodnight and let them watch me drive away. My son just watched me go with this confused blank expression that is etched in my mind right now. We knew he wouldn't settle for dh if I was anywhere around and we know from experience that I have to leave well before the lights go out. I felt bad about leaving dh with the kids to get them dressed for bed all by himself, but hey, I do it all the time. I drove down the street and parked for about an hour and a half before I came back home. The house has been silent since I came home since dh fell asleep alongside the boy. I don't even know how things went. We're hoping that if he can get used to his dad putting him to sleep, maybe we can shorten the amount of time it takes to put him to sleep. I don't know if full weaning will happen. I have mixed feelings about that. I know he's old enough but it just a chapter closed, and that makes me a little bit sad. I'm not sure about how i will handle naptime yet since dh can't help then. His work schedule is unpredictable but we're hoping he can be around to help in the evenings for a couple of weeks. |
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That is wonderful Jordan, I hope it went well!!
Blessings!
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Meredith
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mathmama
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| Posted: July 21 2007 at 10:22am | IP Logged
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Jordan wrote:
| Beth, that's nice that you're getting your dd to sleep in less time at night. Are you nursing her to sleep at night and she still goes to sleep so quickly? Wow! I do think my little one still needs his nap. |
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She was nursing to sleep before she wenaed about 2 to 3 months ago at the end of my pregnancy. She would nurse all during her nap too, up until we cut it out. Cutting out the nap really freed me up, because I would spend about 1 hour getting her to sleep and then she would sleep anywhere from 30 minutes to 1hr 30 minutes. Since she nursed all during her nap (she would wake as soon as I left her) I lost a big chunk of my day. And then when getting her to sleep at night dragged as well... 
I hope that you find a solution that works for you.
Beth
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mary theresa
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| Posted: July 23 2007 at 12:59pm | IP Logged
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Jordan,
I have never heard of Elizabeth Pantley, so Im sorry I don't know how they compare.
I'll TRY to give you an overview of the main ideas she implements for toddlers (it's different for different ages). 
I just want to say first that I am not an ecological breastfeeder. I don't nurse my child to sleep, she sleeps on her own and I weaned her of night feedings by 5 mos. So, this woman's philosophy is what worked for me. I think some ppl def. would disagree with this phil. for their family.
. . . just so you know!
1. EARLY bedtime (i.e. no later than 8pm, preferably 7) to stop overtiredness (the less they sleep, the less the sleep -- it's a vicious circle)
2.consistent bedtime routine that is ALWAYS the same -- child knows what to expect and nothing ever differs.
3. if they get out of bed --even 40 times -- put them back without a word. Neg. attention is still attention.
4. Don't sooth them to sleep yourself. it's an important thing to learn how to fall asleep on your own, doesn't come naturally, esp if a bad habit is formed and needs to be encouraged by the parent. A blanket, animal, etc. are good "soothers" to help them get to sleep, but parents are not. You become their "sleep crutch."
5. Can go back in at 10 min intervals to pat and comfort, but then leave again. Don't stay till they are sleeping.
Oh, and she never says that this won't involve crying. Crying is part of life.
But she is big on supporting the child through this hard change for them, loving them more during the day, and the need to NOT feel guilty because you are doing what is best for them, for you and for the family and you have to stick to your guns and smile and be gentle but don't yield.
Then there is a "program" she has you follow for a least two weeks -- planning your "strategy" and keeping records so you can see improvements, etc.
I don't really have time to explain more now. PM me if you want more and I'll try if you want.
Hope that helps! I really feel for you! My daughter was so hard and I shed so many tears over her not sleeping. Now I see SUCH a big difference. She is happy to go to bed, sleeps well and long at night and Daddy or Nana or Aunt or Uncle or other babysitter can put her to bed with little trouble. She has her "softie" that helps her fall asleep, not me. We are all so much happier!
God bless!
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Mary Theresa
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Jordan
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| Posted: July 23 2007 at 1:43pm | IP Logged
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Mary Theresa,
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain some of what the Sleep Sense Program entails. Your description is very helpful.
I'm glad you and your family had such great success with it.
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Jordan
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Betsy
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Jordan wrote:
My husband and I want more children very much but I can't do it this way again. We've put off having a third because ds's demands on my time when he needs to sleep are so great, I don't know how I could manage a baby too.
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+JMJ+
My first son needs more sleep than the average child resists sleep more than the average child! So I have been their. I could go on for ever about how trying those first few years were...very similar to what you are dealing with right now! However, in a nut shell here are my two words of advice.
1. This will not last forever, even if you continue to do everything that you are doing. They will grow up and you won't be putting him to bed forever. HOWEVER....
2. A new sibling could be just the thing to help him. My first son whom I said never slept without a fight grew in to the biggest brother when my third ds was born. It was during this transition from 2-3 that we all had to adjust and the sleeping just got better!
Don't get me wrong I was petrified to have my third...but it truly turned out to be the best, most peaceful event in our family. PLUS...as a bonus..ds#3 is a really good sleeper!
Betsy
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missionfamily
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I also wanted to chime in to say that often a pregnancy solves so many of my concerns about the youngest at the time. Bedtime routine has been an issue with most of mine when I got pregnant for the next. In the first trimester of a pregnancy, I become much less entertaing as I fall sound asleep while I'm nursing them or reading to them. They begin to drift off more quickly. Then they usually wean somewhere in the middle months and become more capable of self-comforting. By the end of the pregnancy, I'm so huge, they usually kick meout of their beds. Then the baby comes and the routine alters and changes and as children do, they adapt and without even really realizing how it happened that child is suddenly quite self-sufficient in the area I was most concerned about.
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vmalott
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Like Meredith, we have usually successfully transitioned our kids to a 'big kid' bed between the ages of 2-3. Those who have nursed past two usually weaned by the time a younger sibling arrived, and I was never afraid to lie down with them in their bed to help them get to sleep. Some have done the mattress on the floor in our room during that transition time, some have fallen asleep in our bed and were then moved to their bed.
Moving to the crib was almost never successful with our first two, so we gave up using it. And, well, with a climber, I'd be more worried about a fall from a crib than a fall from a twin bed. I've always thought that the reason the kids awoke during transfer to a crib and not to a bed is because they don't remain nestled close to your body when going into the crib. You have to lean over the rail to get them in!
I also echo Colleen's experience...it has been much the same for us. All our kids have been attachment parented, and all but the first have been ecologically breastfed. All but one have been sleeping contentedly in their own beds since age 3, and our almost 3yo is starting to show less interest in nursing as things change during this pregnancy.
And remember, a pregnancy usually lasts for 9 months, which is nearly a year for your present youngest to grow and mature. What seems insurmountable now, will be a piece a cake further down the road.
Valerie
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Jordan
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Betsy, Colleen, & Valerie, thank you very much for sharing your experiences. I only have two kids so I don't have much experience to speak from, but my older child weaned during my next pregnancy and we had a few easy months before my son was born. Dd is generally more agreeable than ds so I'd attributed it to that and haven't expected he'd react the same way. It's got to get easier one of these days.
He's doing well with his dad putting him down at night. No crying for Mama after the first couple of nights. Naps are more challenging. He burns energy fussing while I'm lying with him as opposed to resting while he was nursing before. I'm trying to figure out how long to let him sleep after he finally does fall asleep. One day he never did fall asleep, was a miserable grump all afternoon, and then fell asleep in 15 minutes at bedtime. Another day, he took an hour to fall asleep, I let him sleep for an 1.5 hours after that, then he took an hour to go to sleep at bedtime for his dad. I'm going to keep trying until we find what works. I am sure he is capable of doing this and that we just need to establish some new habits. I am encouraged that he's doing so well with his dad at night. I am also so thankful that dd 4 is such a good sleeper and isn't disturbed by any of this.
Thank you all so much.
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Jordan
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: 2 yo Sleep Troubles
