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amyable
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 3:44pm | IP Logged
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I have been having trouble with my oldest two children (9.5 and 7.5) for quite some time now. Now that I have a college girl here a few hours a week to help out, I can step back and watch how they interact with each other and with her - WOW, so much of the problem seems to be simple disrespect. I realizing between siblings some of this is to be expected, but I am floored at the amount I see going towards our babysitter and realizing they also do this with me/dh.
Two little examples - they seem mild but it is all day, every day, with both of them:
Babysitter tells one of them: "You have two more minutes and then it's your sisters turn."
7.5 year old says, with a nasty tone of voice and sour look, "Why two minutes??"
or, 7.5 year old asks what she can have for snack. I list grapes, blueberries, bananas. She sourly asks, "Why can't I have the strawberries?" I nicely tell her I have given her her choices and she just stares (glares?) at me chewing her hair. (I had my reasons, but am sick of the constant discontentment with my given selections, and so did not explain.)
Now, is this just age appropriate? Can't I expect a little more "giving in" to my authority as mother and runner of the household? Do you expect your under 10 crowd to act more nicely than that, and what do you do to make sure it happens? I have talked about respect and "asking and accepting nicely" until I am blue in the face, and they just. don't. care. We model respectful behavior as best we can. Can you punish for such a thing? and how?
Help?
(anyone out there in 4realville willing to come out here and stay with me for a week to get my kids under control before this baby comes? I'll pay!  I need a 4 Real Supper Nanny, LOL!!!)
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Amy
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The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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folklaur
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 4:18pm | IP Logged
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Hi,
Okay I wasn't going to answer this at first, as I know I can be kind of strict with my kids. But you will probably get a range of opinions anyway, and can pick and choose for your family, right?
so here goes - I just don't want to come across as harsh or whatever.
But!
But - would I punish for behavior like that? Me, personally, yes, I would. If I said to my kids "two minutes" like that and they are nasty in response, their turn would end NOW. And, if the strawberry question was asked with an attitude, they would have NO snack instead. There is a difference between just "asking" as in , "Oh, can I have the strawberries instead?" and in demanding or having an attitude about it.
Are my kids angels? Nope not at all. But I do expect ALL of them to behave a certain way, my teenager, my 8 year old who is on the autistic spectrum, and my just turned five year old. And trust me, if the youngers see the olders acting disrespectful, it has a trickledown effect.
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 4:23pm | IP Logged
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Amy,
I think, for one, the children know you have other things on your mind...like having a baby, for instance. They will test you and their limits. I think that's normal.
I also think that closer to Sept. they will shoulder their responsibilities and turn into very good mother-helpers. They'll know you're tired and need them to help out. That's my experience anyway.
Now for the punch line. I had a case of disrespect this morning from my 14 yr old ds.  I'm wondering if it's not a case of the heat of summer descending upon everyone's house and it's time to kick on the A/C and get back to a school routine.
Of course, if I was fixing to have a baby, that would be the last thing on my mind.
Not sure this is any help. Just know that we all have issues with disrespect at various times. The important thing is to address it and correct it before it becomes a nasty habit.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 5:05pm | IP Logged
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Amy, I would agree with both Laura and Cay. I wouldn't "tolerate" that behavior. Kids tend to sense when Mom is not quite up to constant vigilance and they start pushing limits. Also, as my mom always tells me when I am expecting, kids sense that things are changing and don't know what to expect or how to respond. Sometimes, that means some pretty lousy behavior.
So, address it. Cut it short like Laura said. But at the same time, try spending some extra time talking with them about their attitudes, gently. I am reading Seasons of a Mother's Heart by Sally Clarkson and just finished a chapter about having sympathy for our children. She talks about how these days we tend to be very authoritative and forget to get on the child's level and look through their eyes.
I have always liked the philosophy that a disobedient child is a discouraged child. That, for a normal kid, they are happier being obedient and having things pleasant in the home. If they are acting out, there is usually a cause.
Of course, all that said, those of us with a large brood also know that there is that mob mentality sometimes where each one seems to want to outdo the next and they all drag each other down! If only we can channel that mentality towards positive behavior, you know, who can help Mommy the most!
Don't despair. We all go through seasons when we look at our kids and wonder where we went wrong.  Just keep the responses short and sweet and look for opportunities to sympathize and look for the good behavior.
God bless.
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 5:54pm | IP Logged
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I totally agree with Laura.
I have a zero tolerance policy on disrespect around here. It works very well and my kids are very respectful, to the point that they would never think of saying disrespectful things to me or dh. In fact, when my kids hear others being disrespectful to their parents they are quite shocked.
But that is also balanced by respect on my part for them. Though I am the mother and will raise my voice to scold on occasion, it is done in a tone of respect. Never nasty or derisive.
Now, none of my kids (nor I) are perfect, so there are bound to be the occasional slips. But a little raising of the eyebrow is all it usually takes to bring them back in line.
I do firmly believe there should be consequences for disrespect. My oldest ds sometimes tested a bit when he was young, and the type of consequences Laura wrote about worked very well for him.My youngest dd, I have a feeling will push the limits, for sure. But I am ready for her!LOL! I also believe this type of attitude needs to be established while young, or we end up with teenagers who are totally out of control, surly and smart-alecky. That's the last thing I need in my old age!LOL!
Anyway, as always, JMHO.
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amyable
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 7:48pm | IP Logged
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Thank you everyone. I guess (make that, I *know*) I need to get more strict in terms of actual consequences. It's funny, I *think* I'm strict - I don't let them get away with much of anything, but I almost never actually punish...just talk, talk, talk . Apparently it doesn't do any good. 
I wish I could blame the pregnancy, but these two kids have been like this for a looooong time. Maybe it is worse now, but not by much. I'm just figuring out how much it has to do with disrespect of others. I had been blaming their personalities (different, but both difficult - one is a total drama queen/bossy and the other is quiet/sullen/angry).
Almost every single day is difficult around here because of their behavior, and it really does trickle down to the little ones. (and up to me stress wise!) I need it to stop. Now.
Any and all further advice is welcome!! Esp. practical "this is what I would do" ideas. My "thinker" has been on the blink since I got pregnant.
Thanks again everyone. 
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Rachel May
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 8:27pm | IP Logged
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We're fairly strict also. Disrespect is a tough one!
One thing I do is say, "Because I said so." Some people don't like it, but really, in the end, so many parenting decisions are just because that's what I decided just now. So, no strawberries because I said so. Two minutes because I said so. If you use it enough, kids realize that is the end of the discussion.
Another thing I do is have the kids apologize to me if they speak disrespectfully to me. I will say, "Excuse me?" (there might be a circular head movement thing and a look of extreme surprise and displeasure to get the point across). Then I'll say, "You many not speak to me that way. You may apologize to me now." Sometimes I prompt with, "I'm sorry Mommy for speaking disrespectfully to you." Everything stops until they do. Then I immediately say, "I forgive you." and ask them what they needed. I try to judge the request based on what they are asking and not the behavior we just dealt with.
It REALLY helps if your husband catches them and says, "You may NOT speak to your mother that way." in his man voice. Then he's showing it's not just another of Mom's crazy ideas.
Good luck!
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folklaur
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Rachel May wrote:
| in his man voice. Then he's showing it's not just another of Mom's crazy ideas. |
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I loved this!
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marihalojen
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Rachel May wrote:
It REALLY helps if your husband catches them and says, "You may NOT speak to your mother that way." in his man voice. Then he's showing it's not just another of Mom's crazy ideas.
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Amen to this!
My dh is a stickler on Respect. Doesn't even matter if it is his kid or not!
 Really.
I could tell you some stories...
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Mother to Mariannna, age 13
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Willa
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I've used the: "Try that again, please" when my children act sour or argumentative. Sometimes they have to try more than once, and sometimes we end up all laughing. But they have to use the acceptable voice before they get what they want. Over time, it works.
The key thing I try to remember is that I never, never want to somehow reward them for an attitude that is a problem for me. I don't even want to reward them with very much negative attention -- like a lecture (my tendency) or a severe talking to. Some kids find a bit of an oppositional reward in getting this kind of talking-to. And honestly, it drains my energy or at best gives me a very cheap satisfaction because it usually doesn't really sink in.
If my teenage daughter happens to read this she will laugh because the littlest in our family does sometimes get away with acting unacceptably, usually because I'm occupied with other things and not paying attention, OR because he is my 7th and I've seen this stage 6 times before and it's sort of borrring by now.
This points out the other thing I was going to say, though. Part of a child's habit of doing something is MY habit of accepting it. They go hand in hand. Charlotte Mason says that every household has a couple of areas where the children never, NEVER trespass on their mother, because they know instinctively that this is forbidden territory. It may be something completely trivial. I notice this all the time -- my kids do things that would probably drive X mom crazy, but X's kids do things that just never happen in my house (talking very generally here -- and about little, non-moral things like whether you take off your shoes at the door or not or hang up the towels in folds or not).
SO If I resolve to stay vigilant and never let it get by, whatever IT is that really bothers me, then it hardly matters HOW I don't let it get by. I can say, "Take five before you try again," or "Leave, then come back in and we'll start all over." I just stop letting it happen.
(If it does keep happening, then a deeper problem usually appears, which may be the real problem. Suppose my whining four year old decides to have a tantrum whenever I don't let him get his way by whining. Then I have a bigger problem than whining but at least I know what it is and can deal with the real issue. Suppose I find I can't help getting a tinge of righteous satisfaction in my voice when I tell them to leave and come back again. Then I realize I have a personal power issue here and I know that may be adding a flame to the situation. Then again, I learn something about what's really going on)
I don't keep explaining reasons while waiting for obedience. That seems to be letting the child make his obedience a condition of his understanding and acceptance of my reasoning, which isn't how it ought to work. If a child says he's forgotten the reason or doesn''t understand why or why not, I say we will talk about it another time, but right now it is time to listen and obey. And then we talk about it later, but it often turns out that that they didn't really need a reason -- they needed to know if asking for a reason would allow them to stall or slip in an argument.
My young children often don't know what is acceptable or not except by trying it. A couple of my children have had auditory immaturity and verbal comprehension came in a very distant third after my actions and my tone of voice. I had to make sure my verbal reminders were simple and consistent and that they lined up with my tone and my action.
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Willa
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humanaevitae
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We have a book that has really helped me train the kids to talk respectfully.
It is very concrete and gives the kids helpful analogies.
Respectful Kids by Dr. Todd Cartmell
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snowbabiesmom
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Just my 2cents on the "snack" response.. If my dc are disrespectful when it comes to the snack of "my" choice (I choose, no options here) then the snack will become the same everyday until I decide its enough.. ie: dd could eat a bowl of bran flakes for am and pm snack everyday for a long period of time.. not going to hurt her in any way, but a gentle reminder, "Why am I eating bran flakes? Oh yeah, I was disrespectful"..
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doris
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| Posted: July 17 2007 at 5:19pm | IP Logged
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Hmmm... I don't have much time nor brainpower for a considered response, but I feel uneasy about forcing children to apologise, or punishing them for the sort of stuff you mention.
I'm not a woolly liberal let-kids-do-whatever-they-want type, but I tend to think that being too draconian about this sort of thing will just force the disrespect underground. So, for example, I know some families where the parents are very strict, and the children behave themselves well when their parents are around, but as soon as they are on their own, or with other children only, they revert back to being little savages -- worse, possibly, because they are getting things out of their system which they've been repressing.
Having said that, I don't tolerate rudeness from my kids, but get it much more than *I* would have given it to my own parents. Dh says the same. On the other hand, I also get loads and loads of affection and closeness which I certainly didn't share with my parents.
This is all a mess! I'm not trying to gainsay what other more experienced mothers have said. If it works in your family, that's great. And I'm certainly not saying that if you demand respect, you won't get affection. What I'm getting at is how you get kids to respect you or behave themselves generally, and for it to come from the heart, rather than for fear of consequences.
I certainly think that modelling it yourself is a great start. And something I need to work on myself...
right, time to end this meandering post right now!
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chicken lady
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| Posted: July 17 2007 at 8:42pm | IP Logged
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Rachel May wrote:
| "Excuse me?" (there might be a circular head movement thing and a look of extreme surprise |
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This has me belly laughing.....and I really needed that tonight...Thank you!
FWIW.....I too don't allow attitude or disrespect. I don't care if they are hot, tired, kids being kids, etc zero tolerance around here. And I assure you there is alot more than a "circular head movement" going on over here.
I do think it needs to come from the Father down, my dh very sternly tells my dc they may not speak to his wife like that. Since he is basically the most laid back men you would ever meet, this is really powerful with the dc.
Still Rachel!
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Teaching (demanding?) respect
