| Author | |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: July 10 2007 at 7:11pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
In another thread...
Eleanor wrote:
Jo, do you think we could start another thread on this?
It's very timely for us, as my husband and I have been discussing the pros and cons of using the Montessori curriculum -- vs. more of a classical style -- as the backbone of our children's elementary education. More than simply "manipulatives" vs. "books," it seems to come down to a choice of philosophical approaches: "The Fundamental Needs of Man" on one hand, and "The Western Tradition" on the other. As Catholics, we value both of these perspectives, and believe that they're both much needed in today's world. But which (if either!) is the most suitable framework for the education of 6-12 year old children?
I think it would be wonderful if we could discuss the distinctive features of the Montessori elementary curriculum in depth, without having any risk of interrupting the sharing of ideas for continent boxes.  |
|
|
I would be very interested in discussing this as well.
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: July 10 2007 at 7:20pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am glad you mentioned this, Eleanor.
I am not a big fan of classical ed.
Not that I have a problem with it per se, but just that I am worried about the ethnocentrism it could lead to.
I see the Montessori approach as more of a global perspective. I think the Fundamental needs of Man is a brilliant backbone for studying multiple cultures and placing them on equal footing, so to speak. We can look at all cultures as responding in the most logical way to these needs, given their particular circumstances.
Classical ed, I fear, places Western culture aside as "special" and all other cultures are compared to that one. And though I can see the argument for the "specialness" of Western culture, I don't think that is the appropriate route to take to introduce world cultures to my children.
What do you think?
ETA: I hope no one takes this as a slam against classical ed. It is just my sense of how it would not work in our multicultural family!
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
earthmaven
Forum Pro
Joined: June 19 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
|
| Posted: July 10 2007 at 7:59pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
As the mother of biracial children (Dad is from the Philippines), I wholeheartedly concur. Again, I'm with Theresa that this isn't to slam classical ed, but to note that it really is western-centric in its orientation, and that's not our goal as a family.
We do know a number of homeschoolers who follow a Christian Classical ed. program and I must also admit to being turned off by how school-at-home, teacher-driven it all is. Those children are very heavily scheduled...not much time for the wonders of discovery and self-initiated learning that I can see. They're smart little nippers, though, full of factoids, I'll hand 'em that :-) I'm just not convinced that learning that way really sticks--at least not for my children. And just between us, I wouldn't last five minutes having to supervise the process 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: July 10 2007 at 8:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm just about to get the little ones to bed, but wanted to say that I think we need to differentiate between what are commonly thought of as classical methods of education (i.e., structured, book-based, teacher-led), and classical content (i.e., centered on the study of Western culture).
It would be possible, to a considerable extent, to teach classical content with a Montessori style. Families who do "Natural Structure" would probably be doing something along these lines.
Similarly, it would be possible to teach a multicultural curriculum in a teacher-driven, heavily scheduled, fact-oriented way. Some public schools in "progressive" areas do exactly this.
I hope we can use this thread to discuss the unique worldview (as Theresa put it) of the elementary curriculum -- the basic themes, such as Cosmic Education, Peace Education, and the Fundamental Needs of Man -- and not get sidetracked by extolling the virtues of other aspects of Montessori education. 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: July 10 2007 at 9:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I appreciate how Montessori orders her approaches in a way that always starts at the beginning (or the broad) and moves from there - Cosmic Education. I much prefer the approach which allows for a wider appreciation of cultures for the child. I am finding it is very important to introduce these ideas right now, I know I've read that this age (I think I read 5-9) is a sensitive period for these type of cultural discussions. I want my children to experience (in whatever limited way I can offer) the multiple cultures of the world, their needs and how they live. As much as I can I'd like to offer the why's - was it you earthmaven that offered the bottom of the iceberg analogy? I'd like to be able to offer some of the motivations for why a particular culture does a particular thing that might be different from how we do something. This approach seems to put everything in context for a more focused study in later years.
I'd never attempt a Classical style curriculum until high school anyway - if then. To me it's just another order issue - world before west.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Meredith
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 08 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2355
|
| Posted: July 10 2007 at 9:28pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Excellent points here by everyone, and I don't see anyone making any slams against Classical Ed. It's allright to discuss and compare without condemning and you are all doing a beautiful job here
My preference is that there is so much reference to the whole cultures and how they are presented to the child even at the earlier ages. I know mine are fascinated to learn about peoples of ALL cultures even if it's in a picture book and regardless of methodology!
Can't wait to hear more, great thread! 
__________________
Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: July 10 2007 at 9:53pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mackfam wrote:
| I'd never attempt a Classical style curriculum until high school anyway - if then. To me it's just another order issue - world before west. |
|
|
This is pretty much the way my thoughts have been heading recently, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Thank you for phrasing it so clearly.
It seems to me that a child who was educated in the Montessori way throughout the elementary years -- and was also taught the Catholic faith, and exposed to some of the finest music, art, and literature of the Western tradition in the context of family life -- would be quite well able to go on to study the "great books" after age 12.
I'm having a harder time picturing it working out the other way around... i.e., a teenager who had been educated with a very strong emphasis on Western culture, and then tried to develop a deep respect and empathy for other cultures in the high school or college years. Not to say that it couldn't happen... but, as you say, there are sensitive periods for this sort of thing.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: July 10 2007 at 10:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
To be fair, I think that most classical educators do introduce other cultures to their children long before high school.
But to me the difference is the frame of reference. It is done in the context of comparing the "other" culture to the "familiar" Western one. In other words, how they are different from "us." The child could easily come to think of world cultures as being like the spokes of a wagon wheel with Western culture at the center.
When using the Fundamental Needs of Man as a reference point, all cultures are placed evenly around the wheel, including Western, and compared to that more objective measure, man's basic needs.
It is admittedly a subtle difference, but an important one to me.
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: July 11 2007 at 6:48am | IP Logged
|
|
|
lapazfarm wrote:
When using the Fundamental Needs of Man as a reference point, all cultures are placed evenly around the wheel, including Western, and compared to that more objective measure, man's basic needs.
It is admittedly a subtle difference, but an important one to me.
|
|
|
I agree Theresa, and that is what I meant by providing a context through culture study. I do think that by presenting the varied cultures through the lens of our Holy Catholic Faith in a way that fosters respect for the remarkable uniqueness of each culture will set up a foundation of respect for the child to draw from at a later age.
I did also want to mention that I am actually a big fan of a classical, liberal arts education. I love the great books, the logic and rhetoric, the Socratic discussions. These are very appealing to me, but as Theresa rightly pointed out, I think they can be presented in a way that sets up a western view as the starting point and ending point for all discussions. It is my hope and belief that presenting a worldview first will provide the necessary foundation to jump from in later years. I have a 6th grader next year, so I don't have to worry about high school for 3 years yet. I'll be praying between now and then for how to direct that liberal arts education that I desire for my children.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: July 11 2007 at 12:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Jennifer, my husband and I are also supporters of classical education in general, and we do still plan to use that approach for high school, if not earlier. Most of the Catholic homeschooling families we know have used a classical curriculum all along (Kolbe, MODG, etc.), and it seemed natural for us to do something along the same lines, with just a few adaptations. That is, until I started learning more and more about Montessori!
Today is busy at our house, but I wanted to take a moment to post some material that explains, to the uninitiated , what this "worldview" is all about. I'm just getting started in learning about this myself, so maybe these links aren't the best ones, but I've found them very helpful. Many of these pages aren't coming from a Catholic perspective, but we're always free to modify the presentations to more clearly and explicitly reflect our faith, if we consider that to be prudent. (As I understand it, MM and her son were working with non-Catholic children in India when much of the curriculum was developed, so they had to make it "universal.")
First of all, here's a paper by Mary Hayes, from the 2005 International Montessori Congress.
Montessori's View of Cosmic Education
Secondly, to show how these themes are integrated into the various subject areas, here are some lists -- courtesy of a school in Alabama -- of the specific topics that are studied at the elementary level. Apart from the choice of "Junior Great Books," which I'm guessing would vary greatly from one school to another, the curriculum seems to be pretty standard for Montessori.
Specific Objectives for Lower Elementary
Specific Objectives for Upper Elementary
(click on the tabs to see the lists for Geography, History, Language, Math, and Science)
Finally, these pages have numerous links to more detailed information about presentations, materials, etc.:
Barbara Dubinsky: Great Lessons Page
Montessori Mom: Great Lessons, Cosmic Education Links and More
I hope these will be helpful to someone. Now, my own "great work" will be to try to stay off the computer for the rest of the day, and attend to the "fundamental needs" of my household! 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Meredith
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 08 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2355
|
| Posted: July 11 2007 at 1:10pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Wow, thanks Eleanor, these are very helpful and thank you for taking the time to link everything, I know how that can take away from everyone's fundamental needs as well 
It is much appreciated!!
__________________
Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: July 11 2007 at 5:05pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
You're very welcome.
Just wanted to add one more thing that seems important, although it relates more to the "Five Great Lessons" than to the "Fundamental Needs of Man." In her paper, Mary Hayes mentions Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, the French Jesuit priest and scientist. Anyone familiar with his work can see that Montessori was inspired and influenced by his cosmic/evolutionary perspective. As a traditionally-minded Catholic, I've been troubled by this aspect of her thinking, ever since I first learned about it.
Father Teilhard de Chardin was a very controversial figure, and was censured by the Church on numerous occasions. Even though several popes (including John XXIII and John Paul II) are said to have been fans of certain of his writings, and he had an obvious influence on Gaudium et Spes and other Vatican II documents, he's a bit of a dodgy character overall. Even at its best, his work seems wide-open to grave misinterpretations, such as pantheism and denial of original sin (a la Matthew Fox). At worst... well, TAN has published a couple of books that more or less accuse him of being the father of Modernism. The Vatican, while not going that far, decided in 1981 to reiterate the 1962 monitum (warning) concerning "ambiguities and doctrinal errors" in certain passages from his writings.
So... in developing her philosophy of "cosmic education," did Maria Montessori only adopt what was good and true from the writings of Teilhard de Chardin? Or were her own ideas (or her son Mario's) dangerously affected by his false ideas?
Either way, we should be aware of the grave errors in his writings. These are thoroughly discussed in the TAN books, as well as Dietrich von Hildebrand's Trojan Horse in the City of God. If you don't have access to those books (or don't have time to read them), here are some articles from orthodox Catholic sources that deal with the subject more briefly.
Review of Teilhardism and the New Religion (TAN Books, 1988), by Msgr. John F. McCarthy, J.C.D., S.T.D, from Living Tradition magazine
The Legacy of Teilhard? by Farley Clinton, from Inside the Vatican magazine
Given all of these concerns, it's not hard to see why so many non-Catholic Montessori schools have ended up promoting "new age" ideas. Montessori just doesn't make sense as an entirely secular method of education. There will be a big piece missing at the center -- the spiritual beliefs and values that underlie our understanding of the universe itself. It's not possible to leave this space blank. If it isn't filled by the Catholic faith, some other religion or philosophy will surely come to take its place.... and the false teachings of "Teilhardism" would seem to be a leading candidate.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
AndreaG
Forum Pro
Joined: March 25 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: July 12 2007 at 9:35am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Eleanor thanks for taking time to share all these links!
I really enjoyed this discussion - although I had nothing to add
I hadn't even thought about this aspect of montessori education, thanks for bringing it up!
__________________
Andrea
GrayFamilyCircus
Read Through the Catechism in a Year- For Moms!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Meredith
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 08 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2355
|
| Posted: July 12 2007 at 10:25am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Eleanor, I too am really enjoying all the links! It's nice to have all the different perspectives so we can tailor our teaching/learning for our dc!!
Blessings!
__________________
Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: July 12 2007 at 1:57pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I have a bit of trouble with multi-culturalism in general - not because I don't want my children to be aware of other cultures or to appreciate the good wherever it is found. However, multiculturalism as I have generally seen it portrayed, has been an attitude of all cultures are equal, and that isn't true. Christ is the center. I don't know enough about Montessori to be certain about how much is her original approach to this and how much is secular adaptation, though in the local Montessori schools, they do tend to be new agey and there have been a few things that send warning bells in my mind when I've looked at some of the catelogues in the area of culture. I will be cautious here but doesn't mean I'll throw out what were astute observations about learning and respect.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: July 12 2007 at 2:33pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
ALmom wrote:
However, multiculturalism as I have generally seen it portrayed, has been an attitude of all cultures are equal, and that isn't true. Christ is the center.
Janet |
|
|
Hmmm... don't want to start an argument here, but I always thought that all folks ARE equal in God's eyes.
True, Christ is the center. But none of us "deserve" him. Some have been lucky enough to born into a culture infused with a knowledge of Him.
How does that make us superior?
Blessed, yes. Superior, NO.
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CatholicMommy
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2007
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1254
|
| Posted: July 12 2007 at 2:48pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think this is where I'm going to greatly appreciate having the atrium along with our academic education. By using the timelines, the Fettucia, the Unity Strip, it's so much 'easier' to look at world cultures that have perhaps not yet heard of Christ (or who have heard of Him and refused the message), and still see where they fit in the "big picture."
I love Montessori, but until I had the Level II CGS training, I really wasn't sure how to incorporate Montessori's cosmic education into a Christocentric universe - I knew the connection was there, but just hadn't pinpointed the specifics yet.
lapazfarm wrote:
True, Christ is the center. But none of us "deserve" him. Some have been lucky enough to born into a culture infused with a knowledge of Him.
How does that make us superior?
Blessed, yes. Superior, NO. |
|
|
I love how you said this, Theresa!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: July 12 2007 at 2:57pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
lapazfarm wrote:
ALmom wrote:
However, multiculturalism as I have generally seen it portrayed, has been an attitude of all cultures are equal, and that isn't true. Christ is the center.
Janet |
|
|
Hmmm... don't want to start an argument here, but I always thought that all folks ARE equal in God's eyes.
True, Christ is the center. But none of us "deserve" him. Some have been lucky enough to born into a culture infused with a knowledge of Him.
How does that make us superior? |
|
|
All people are created equal, but all cultures aren't. Christian cultures, in particular, evidently have something special. Otherwise, how could people be considered "lucky" to be born into one?
Of course, we should respect those elements of truth and goodness that are present in other cultures... but this isn't the same as cultural relativism, i.e. the attitude that "all cultural practices are equally valid and worthy of respect." (Not that anyone here is promoting that concept, but, as Janet says, it's commonly found in the "new age" type of Montessori schools, as well as multicultural programs in public schools.)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: July 12 2007 at 3:30pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oops, I forgot half my point.
In addition to respecting what's good and true in other cultures, we're called to try to and approach the flaws in these cultures (and our own, for that matter) with understanding and compassion, in the way that the great missionaries have done. I think the Fundamental Needs of Man approach can be very helpful in figuring out how to teach our children about these situations. "Because their souls are in darkness" might be a true explanation in some cases, but it's not necessarily the most helpful or productive one. This becomes more apparent when "they" aren't just pictures in National Geographic, but people who live next door (literally or figuratively).
We were watching a nature documentary last night, and they showed some footage of a Hindu temple where the people worshipped rats. Argh... how was I going to explain that to my 3-year-old? Fortunately, she didn't clue in to the religious implications, and just wanted to know why there were rats running around everywhere, with people giving them trays of food, etc. I just said that those people thought rats were very nice, but that most people don't think so. But I know we'll have to deal with these sorts of questions as she gets older, and I'll be glad to have some sort of structured way to do it. My own "gut reactions" (especially in cases like this, with a strong "ick" factor) might not be the best ones.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Meredith
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 08 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2355
|
| Posted: July 12 2007 at 4:57pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
CatholicMommy wrote:
I think this is where I'm going to greatly appreciate having the atrium along with our academic education. By using the timelines, the Fettucia, the Unity Strip, it's so much 'easier' to look at world cultures that have perhaps not yet heard of Christ (or who have heard of Him and refused the message), and still see where they fit in the "big picture."
I love Montessori, but until I had the Level II CGS training, I really wasn't sure how to incorporate Montessori's cosmic education into a Christocentric universe - I knew the connection was there, but just hadn't pinpointed the specifics yet.
lapazfarm wrote:
True, Christ is the center. But none of us "deserve" him. Some have been lucky enough to born into a culture infused with a knowledge of Him.
How does that make us superior?
Blessed, yes. Superior, NO. |
|
|
I love how you said this, Theresa! |
|
|
Me Too! And thank you for sharing this information Catholicmommy! I can see where this level of COGS would be much more helpful, yet another class and when to do it, sigh...
You guys are doing a good job here!
__________________
Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Nurturing the Years of Wonder
Topic: worldviews
