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MommyD
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 8:13am | IP Logged
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How do you aruge with "I'm pro-choice and pro-life. I would never have an abortion. However, we can not tell other people what to do with their bodies or their medical decisions."
Melissa
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Maryan
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 8:57am | IP Logged
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Certainly not sufficient -- but...here's a thought:
Back when our country was more ignorant - we thought that people could be possessions and you couldn't tell people how to treat your possessions. So slaves were owned, abused, r*ped, - even beat them to death -- because no one could tell them what to do with their own possessions.
As a country, we still have a ways to go... we still believe another life can be our own possession -- to do with as we please. That's not medical science... it's ignorance. (Two absolutely different DNA's tell you that a baby is not the other person's body -- otherwise the baby would have the mom's DNA.)
Obviously this won't settle the argument, it's just a food for thought point.
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Maryan
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Mary G
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 9:32am | IP Logged
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Well, my dh would say this much better than I can, but basically pro-choice implies that there IS a choice between life and death; we don't have that power. We don't even have the power to choose to kill ourselves. Choice is not an option.
Now, as far as telling other people how to live; I used to use this argument too. It's so much easier to not get into debate, to say "well, it's your life". But as Catholics we believe we have the fullness of truth -- and the truth is that we should tell people that they are doing something morally wrong if they are. We shoul always approach everything with charity and love, not get into a shouting match or denigrate the other person. But, the bottom line is that if someone is going to kill someone -- whether it's a crazed gunman at a school or woman/child contemplating an abortion, or a son/daughter wanting to "off" their elderly parent -- these are immoral and must be stopped.
Does that help a bit? I'll ask dh what he would say -- he can use such better arguments on things like this....
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MaryG
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Essy
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 10:12am | IP Logged
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"we can not tell other people what to do with their bodies or their medical decisions"
I think that's a false assumption to begin with. The government constantly tells us what we can and cannot do with our bodies. Suicide is against the law...certain drugs (even for medicinal reasons)are against the law etc.
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Tami
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 10:16am | IP Logged
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I say it's impossible to be both: one simply cannot be for the death of one individual, and for the life of another. It's an inconsistent argument.
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kingvozzo
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 10:20am | IP Logged
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Essy wrote:
"we can not tell other people what to do with their bodies or their medical decisions"
I think that's a false assumption to begin with. The government constantly tells us what we can and cannot do with our bodies. Suicide is against the law...certain drugs (even for medicinal reasons)are against the law etc. |
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Not only this, vaccines are mandated (and it can be difficult to dissent), and there have been many legal cases over the years where parents are forced to submit their children to medical treatment because the gov't decides the treatment is in the best interest of the child.
The gov't certainly does tell people what to do with their bodies and their medical decisions...all the time. The "right" that seems to be behind abortion is the right to privacy...which is definitely a modern phenomenon.
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Noreen
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 11:59am | IP Logged
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My friend, Michelle is a pro-life activist in Washington state. This is her response to "I'm pro-life and Pro-choice......"
Our Founding Fathers recognized and proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence, that "all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." ( Endowed by their Creator=they are granted by God, not the state, and Unalienable=cannot be taken away or infringed.) "...and among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness (Pursuit of Property as it was originally called and still understood by constitutional scholars).
Fr. Spitzer, S.J. author of Healing the Culture explains in his presentations on rights that it was no accident that these unalienable rights were listed in the order they were. It is a hierarchical order, in order of priority. One may excercise his right to his property, so long as it does not infringe upon another's right to liberty, because the right to liberty trumps the right to his property. The right to life trumps the right to liberty and right to property. Just remember this order:
Life
Liberty
Pursuit of Property>Happiness
Maryan brought up the slavery issue. This issue pitted the property rights of the slave "owner" against the liberty of the slave. The slave "owner" held that the slave was his property, and therefore, the government could not tell him what he could or could not do with his "property". It logically follows, that one may excercise her right to liberty, even control over her own body, so long as it does not infringe upon another's (or her own for that matter) right to life.
Of course, the argument then sometimes come over whether or not the pre-born child is a person. When arguing with a person who asserts she is "pro-choice and pro-life" and "would never have an abortion", you might ask her "why?" "What is wrong with abortion as far as you see it?" "Why would you not ever have one?" My guess is she would hold the view that the pre-born child is a person, but would suddenly have trouble saying this after being presented with these arguments. She might then resort to saying that her religion tells her this, but others have different religious views. Then the argument is on a different basis.
(I would add as an aside, for those of us anticipating the overturning of Roe vs. Wade, that it would be foolish to then put this question back to the states, as you would end up with the same problem of states coming to different conclusions about abortion as they did with slavery. Our Declaration of Independence proclaims, immediately following the numeration of these unalienable rights, that "governments are instituted among men to secure these rights." We hear, especially in conservative circles, much about "limited government". It is true that we should have limited government, but let's make sure we all understand what government should be limited to: securing the unalienable rights of men, especially, but not necessarily limited to those of citizens subject to their jurisdiction. It is certainly the role of the federal government to ensure these rights are secured, thought the states have a responsibility in this too.)
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MichelleW
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 12:53pm | IP Logged
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Melissa,
That is like saying, "I, personally, would never kill anyone, but I would never tell someone else that murder is wrong." Society, no matter their religion, does not allow this. We all agree as a society that to take a life of another is morally wrong. If the person you are talking to is taking this stance, then I would be interested in WHY that person would not choose abortion. He/She must not be convinced that abortion is murder. He/She must not have a clear understanding of the Life being terminated. Or, what is more frightening, does not care.
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florasita
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 10:06pm | IP Logged
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Most people who are pro choice do not accept the view there is a life . It is not a human life yet . which of course is ridiculous considering even if they call it tissue it is alive so it is living which is a contradiction .
My priest and I just discussed acceptance in regards to abuse etc. pedaphila and so on . we must accept people make thier choices it is absolutly a persons choice they can make a choice . wheather it is legal or not . We have to accept some will make the wrong choice . Now many many less would make the choice if it were illegal but still we cannot control the choices others make . we can speak the truth give the actual facts etc. but in the end it is up to my bil if he chooses to drive drunk .
I personally had an abortion I made the choice . I knew I was having my baby killed . I did it anyway . I made the choice . It was the wrong one .
I am blessed God forgave me because if I had to wait for people to forgive me well we know the results .
God also blessed me with a Dr. so I could come to accept why someone would make the choice to murder my child . My Dr. went from being a loving wife , mother promoting homebirth and nursing to offering abortions .
I know the why because I know her somewhat personally . She was hurt deeply and in much pain as a result of a baby born into an adultered relationship satan helped her heart turn hard . He lateched on to her just like that when he saw her pain . The world the secular world convinced her it was ok . In her eyes she saw it as good this is true evil under the guise of good. She totally convinced herself that she was helping women . So you see in her eyes there is nothing wrong and this is how the world offers to help cover the pain of people . Its very very dark sometimes .
As a young woman at 18yo what I could have had to help me not have an abortion were not people just standing around with signs . I needed people to say I was loved and God loved me and they would help represent God here on earth and help me .No one offered that . I was not strong enough to look for it .
I suffered much as a result of my wrong choice but we need to see I did have a choice and now in healing we take responsibility for our choices .
Am I making any sense at all ?
I have no problem speaking of my experience it is the only reason I would bother .To help others heal and accept God's forgiveness . I don't speak of things I don't know .
I've heard so many really cruel remarks come from both sides of the abortions debate and many people haven't a clue what they are talking about .
When asked what would I tell people who consider abortion I feel it is most importantly to warn them of issues they haven't a clue will come from killing thier child . I also show them via my experiences etc. what good can come when we do have children and be the mothers God asks us to be .
We have to remember the way we as society treat young women & girls who become pregnant .Catholics / Christians are just as guilty of this behaviour . Reemember Jesus with the crowd ready to stone the woman ? We tell these young people right away they cannot be mothers and fathers . We tell them if they try they'll probably fail . We offer them abortion or adoption . Well why then was it fine for my great grandmother to begin parenting at 16yo and raise 14 children but now a young woman at 16yo cannot ?
If the nuns at the home for unwed mothers had not said my friend would make a wonderful mother at 15yo who knows the life she would have led having had to give her child away . Instead she nursed him for almost two yrs  and went on to finish highschool , got accpeted into nursing school and has 5 children now . Think of how the posative of the nuns and that catholic home helped her . Is that not the plan God had for her ?
A lady I know told her friend she and her dh were not concieving because she'd had an abortion and she was telling us in this ladies group how God does punish us . I never said a word but prayed for that woman whose supposed friend was judging her . I am living example God does not punish he forgives . We have 6 living wonderful children and 10 in heaven . Now if my uterus had been effected by the abortion that is a result of my wrong choice but not God punishing me . That group of ladies was a very popular catholic group . I quit after two yrs because they became even more judging of others .
I'm sure in thier minds they are all the better catholics as well . I'm glad I'm not then if that is what a better catholic is .
Anyway like I said I am always very happy to discuss with others my expereince having been part of the secular world and having first hand experience . It is not always as clear cut as we see it to be
Oh and when asked what I'd tell prochoice people I read it in a magazine a quote from Mother Teresa . She was asked by a patient with HIV AIDS to ask God to find a cure . Her responce was that she already had and the one he sent had been aborted in his mother's womb .
Pretty heavy thought to leave them with . right . When we speak the truth as well there is no reason to argue or go on etc. and quarell and fight . If the truth has been said walk away let it take time to sink in . God is simple remember sometimes it only takes a few words .
Which is not what I have done here 
I don't know if this makes any sense regarding what you all were talking about .
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: I need a pro-life argument
