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mairejam5
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 12:13pm | IP Logged
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I'm not exactly sure how I want to word this or even exactly what it is I'm looking for in an answer. Let's see if, as I write, I can make some sense...
My husband and I have been married about seven years. We have a six-almost-seven year old, a 5 1/2 year old, a 3yo, a 15 mo old, and a baby due in June. Originally when we got married we were planning on a spacing of between 2 and 3 years. Even with ecological breastfeeding, my fertility comes back early and the first two were 15mo apart. After that we learned the sympto-thermal method of NFP and used it to avoid a pregnancy for a about two years. Looking back I do believe that this was the right thing to do at the time, not only did the times of abstinence enhance our marriage, but I had health problems that would not have been correctly diagnosed had I not been charting, as well as several other circumstances. Then we felt God's call to use the fertile times and we did, and got pregnant in about five months with my dd. After dd we initially figured we would use NFP again to space, but through prayer and consideration, we really felt God was calling us to trust him completely with our fertility. It seemed to us that, although our circumstances at this time while my husband starts a business are financially difficult to say the least and our housing is very cramped, that we do really believe that no child is a mistake and God will not give you a child without giving you the means to take care of it, and my health problems were resolved, etc. So, then what grave or serious reason do we have to space? It was really just our preference. Other people would not see it this way, were they in the same circumstances, but we really felt like we could not say no to God on this.
After dd, we got pregnant with ds and after he was born, it was the same discernment process, and the same decision. After this baby we will pray and discern again, but as long as nothing drastic changes, our attitude at this time is that we will accept whatever children God will give us. We do not condemn anyone who is spacing or avoiding. We believe that the reasons for avoiding are left up to the couple and God for a reason and that even though some peoples situations may "seem" easier than ours, we don't know all the circumstances, or God's plan for them, and what seems easier to us may actually be very hard for them.
When we are asked and we tell people that we will, at this time, accept whatever children God gives us, we are met with a variety of responses, as you can imagine. What has been surprising to me is that no strangers have ever seemed to react negatively. Mostly it is some form of astonishment, often pleasantly surprised, sometimes surprised and puzzled or amused, but not condemning. Anyone with a negative attitude has kept pretty silent because I have been unaware of it. In fact, even going to the store trailing my four and, often, a friend or two who look like they could be mine, the only comment I've gotten (over and over!) is, "Wow, you really have your hands full!" My husband says it's my towering height that keeps people from venturing any more than that. he he.
Anyway, it's people in my family and friends who have responded more negatively. Not nastily in anyway, but with "reservations" and ... I don't know how to describe it, that look on their faces that shows that they don't really feel like they can or should say something, but they don't really think it is a good idea. A couple of them have argued about why THEY should be using it right now, which I have tried to affirm that we are not trying to make decisions for THEM, only us. Some of them have argued why WE SHOULD be spacing, especially in the circumstances we are in now. What comes up so often is the wording "responsible parenting." And a priest we respect also said that we needed to practice prudence, and that God might give us the children even if we are imprudent about being open for them... so in other words, children we really shouldn't have I guess? He actually wasn't arguing against us being open, just telling us to be careful.
I just have such a hard time reconciling certain things. Does God every give you a child you shouldn't have? Perhaps, if that happens, you should give it up for adoption? Isn't being responsible giving to God what is God's? Do I not trust Him with EVERYTHING else in our lives? Prudence is wisdom, there are times when it is prudent to avoid a pregnancy, but do I define those terms by our cultures standards, or by God's standards? What are God's standards exactly? Do I REALLY trust Him? What exactly is He asking of us? Aside from prayer and a prayerful consideration of the circumstances, how DO you discern what God's will is for you? How do you know when He IS asking you to refrain? It seemed so obvious the first time when we used NFP, and as I said, looking back on it the fruits of practicing that at that time were amazing and wonderful to my health and my marriage and our relationship with God, so I do believe it was the right time. Right now, that doesn't seem the answer, but I am confronted so much lately by the "responsible" parenthood phrase that, every time so far, seems to imply definitely spacing and limiting your family size, with sometimes a side caveat that it's nice or OK for some people to have a lot of kids or not space them, but, again, with an implication (in my mind at least) that for most people this WOULD be irresponsible.
Ladies, how do you and your husbands discern this?
What it comes down to for us is that when I think of being completely open to God, I feel uneasy about the bodily discomfort I tend to go through while pregnant and other things like that, I do tend to pray for just a LITTLE bit bigger break next time (except for the time we purposefully spaced to almost three years, the others are 15 mo apart, 20 mo apart, and this one will be born only 18mo after my last ds -- not as close as some, but difficult enough for me) and other things like that, but that tends to be on the surface more while deeply I feel more at peace, that I AM trusting God and He WILL take care of us... as He has shown over and over. When I think seriously of spacing them, I feel a slight sense of relief as far as all the other stuff, but deep down I feel uneasy like I'm saying No to God at a time when He is calling me. And as long as this is the case, and as long as nothing more serious comes up, we will persist. And I have to say that with every child, the more I have trusted Him, the more he has blessed me and smoothed things out for me. For instance, my greatest plagues by this point in a pregnancy are sore nipples, restless legs, and bad indigestion. I am tandem nursing my last two and that is why the nipples are such a worry, but the 3yo has pretty easily weaned almost completely and my 15mo is sleeping through the night without nursing now, which none of the others did at this age, I found a homeopathic remedy that is GREATLY helping with the restless legs, and another that has made my indigestion nothing but a sometimes nuisance. This is only one example of how God has taken care of me and made it possible to overcome the obstacles that I feared most. For us, I do believe this is the answer right now, but I have a nagging worry that maybe I'm actually being selfish? Or irresponsible? Even though it doens't seem to me that I could be, right now.
sigh.
God Bless you all,
Maire
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Martha
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 12:42pm | IP Logged
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Oh my, here we go... 
I agree with you that some feel ... defensive? about their own choices. I've recieved the same reactions you describe and then some.
There is zero requirement as far as I can tell from the traditions, the bible, or from doctrine that anyone is required under any circumstances to space their children by any method.
The Church reserves natural birth control (eco breastfeeding, periodic or long-term abstience) for those married couples who feel they have serious reasons to avoid conception. The Church leaves it entirely to the couple to determine what is serious for them, not your mother, not your neighbor, not your friends, and unfortunately maybe not even your priest.
Only God can create life. We can choose to be co-creators or not, but we cannot make God create a life that is not meant to be.
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Martha
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Rachel May
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 12:53pm | IP Logged
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mairejam5 wrote:
| ... I am confronted so much lately by the "responsible" parenthood phrase ... |
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I did read it all, but this is what jumped out at me. Perhaps sitting with your husband and thinking out your definition of "responsible parenthood" might help you be more at peace.
For me the most basic standard is my children's behavior. I look at them and think about whether they behave like children who are having their physical, intllectual, and emotional needs met and who act as if they are on the path to Heaven. My thoughts about responsible parenthood begin there, but can range far and wide, and sometimes I meet children who do not seem to be responsibly parented and are from families smaller and more financially secure than ours.
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mary theresa
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 1:11pm | IP Logged
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Maire,
I can't presume to have the right answer for you, or the one you are looking for, but may I just say that your post spoke to my heart. Though I have just one child now, some of the questions you are asking about prudence and responsible parenting are ones that resonated with some that I have had for years since college. My understanding of this area is limited, but is growing and I hope it would be alright to offer some thoughts that may or may not help.
First, I would say, TRUST YOURSELF. Your instincts are important to pay heed to. God uses so many means to speak to us when we are praying so hard to know His will. Do not doubt that if you are praying in this way that He will guide you, and is guiding you now. YOU know yourself, YOU know your family, your husband and children and TRUST that you CAN make these decisions that affect momentous things -- like new little lives-- because God has bestowed on you that priviledge and dignity to be able to work with Him in making you a co-creator and a mother. In this the greatest and noblest area of our lives -- co-creating -- God does not override the nobility of human reason and that's why He will always honor what we choose: open to life now, or open later.
Second, peace is a result of living in His will for you at that time. There isn't a substitute for this. If you do feel deeply at peace, then do not worry!  Obviously, from one month of fertility to the next God may call or challenge us to something different, but "tomorrow will take care of itself."
It's a hard thing. The responsibility of being a parent is great. I do believe that your priest is right in that God mysteriously allows himself to be constrained by the biological laws of nature that He has set in place. So, I think it is possible to be imprudently open to children, but I think once a child has come into existence, God always brings goodness with the goodness of that child.
. . . I hope that is clear. I think alot of the "responsible parenthood" stuff all comes down to the paradox of God's Will versus our free will and how His providence works even though we are able to choose something wrong or unwise or evil. And that's too tricky for me to figure out quite. 
God bless you Maire! I hope this was of some use. Even if it wasn't, thank you for your post. It is so good to see that I am not alone in trying to understand these things. Peace be with you!
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Mary Theresa
mother to 3 little girls --March '06, Dec '07 and Jan '10
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Martha
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 1:13pm | IP Logged
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Rachel May wrote:
I did read it all, but this is what jumped out at me. Perhaps sitting with your husband and thinking out your definition of "responsible parenthood" might help you be more at peace.
For me the most basic standard is my children's behavior. I look at them and think about whether they behave like children who are having their physical, intllectual, and emotional needs met and who act as if they are on the path to Heaven. My thoughts about responsible parenthood begin there, but can range far and wide, and sometimes I meet children who do not seem to be responsibly parented and are from families smaller and more financially secure than ours.
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Now, for me, I would completely disagree. If that was the determining factor is whether one should have children, many a saint would not have been concieved. St. Augustine comes to mind. Dealing with him is what made St. Monica a saint!
I've seen examples as you give, but I've seen just as many of the other side too. Children that are well behaved, smart, and nice - with very little faith.
In either example, I would not be so bold as to think their parents are irresponsible to have had those children. Rather, I presume God knows exactly what He is doing in those souls He creates and He is under no obligation to tell me His plans.
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Martha
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Maryan
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 1:25pm | IP Logged
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Maire -- I understand! Dh and I have always been open to life, but we did have little worries about how would I take care all these little ones, and my health, and no sleep, and nursing concerns, etc.!!
However, for us, our discernment became very clear when I had my first miscarriage. I won't say I was cured of worrying -- but it definitely put my concerns in perspective. And we've never doubted that being open was "irresponsible," etc. from that moment.
But I should add that we are INCREDIBLY blessed -- and want for nothing right now including our health. We both agree that the gift of siblings (we both have 7 each) was one of the greatest gifts that our parents gave us. And we both agree that all the work and lack of sleep is so worth giving this same gift to our children as well -- God willing.
And I do think that God does give you what you can handle or ease something else so you can handle it. My Mom had 7 children, but she had more miscarriages than live births. While miscarriages were always sad, she chose to see them as God's way of tending to our family's needs and giving her only what she could handle.
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Lisbet
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
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It's never selfish to co-operate with Gods plan. Only He can create, like Marths stated.
If we come together as husband and wife, and God blesses that, that can in no way be selfish or irresponsible, no matter what others try to tell us.
I unfortunetly know how you feel, people all around me try to tell me we are not being responsible, we are selfish, only thinking of ourselves and the now, not the future, etc...
I don't know how that is possible, if it were, God would be selfish and irresponsible, because He is the One that ultimitly creates, and we all know that is simply NOT possible.
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SaraP
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 2:51pm | IP Logged
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mariejam5 wrote:
| It seemed so obvious the first time when we used NFP, and as I said, looking back on it the fruits of practicing that at that time were amazing and wonderful to my health and my marriage and our relationship with God, so I do believe it was the right time. Right now, that doesn't seem the answer, but I am confronted so much lately by the "responsible" parenthood phrase that, every time so far, seems to imply definitely spacing and limiting your family size, with sometimes a side caveat that it's nice or OK for some people to have a lot of kids or not space them, but, again, with an implication (in my mind at least) that for most people this WOULD be irresponsible. |
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And I think when a couple really does have serious reasons to avoid pregnancy and it is God's will for them to do so it usually is very obvious. God doesn't want to trick or confuse us and if we are seeking His will we can be quite confident that we will find it.
I do think that there are situations in which it is possible to be selfish or irresponsible by not avoiding pregnancy. An extreme example would be a husband who does not want to be bothered with even the abstinence necessary to avoid pregnancy with NFP and so insists, over his wife's objections, that they be open to conceiving even though she has a medical condition that will likely be fatal if she becomes pregnant.
A less extreme example in my own life was similar in some ways to what you describe in your post. My first two children are 16 months apart (despite ecological breastfeeding) and after our second was born my DH was thoroughly overwhelmed and didn't feel like he could handle anymore DC. Ever. I didn't necessarily agree that we had serious reasons to avoid pregnancy at that point (much less forevermore!), but he felt VERY strongly about it and had I said, "Well I'm having no part of NFP - if you want to avoid another pregnancy it's up to you to figure out a way to do it!" that would have been wrong. (As it was my cycles didn't return that time for more than a year, we used NFP to avoid for about another year and by then the Holy Spirit had done enough work on DH that even after our 3rd DC was born we both agreed that we still had no need of NFP.  )
But even in situations where someone acts selfishly any child conceived is specifically willed by God for the greater good of everyone involved and, in any case, your situation doesn't sound anything like either of these!
Here is what the Church says about responsible parenthood (emphasis mine):
Quote:
| With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time. (Humanae Vitae 10) |
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So regardless of how some people may appropriate the phrase "responsible parenthood" the Church defines it first as a prudent, generous openess to many children and only secondly as avoiding pregnancy when there is a serious reason to do so.
Something else that I think helps to keep this in perspective is to remember that NFP isn't really some new, novel thing that the Church has suddenly permitted in the last 50 or 60 years. The Church permits the use of NFP (periodic abstinence) in situations where there is a serious reason to avoid conceiving for the same reasons total abstinence has always been permissible in these situations. So anytime we are considering whether God might be calling us to avoid pregnancy we ought to consider whether, if we lived 200 years ago and NFP were not an option, we would even consider total abstinence and if not our reasons probably aren't really all that serious.
Hmm . . . I think I'm rambling, but I hope I've said something useful and even if I haven't know that I will say a few extra prayers for your peace of mind today.
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Dawnie
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 4:06pm | IP Logged
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I'd like to add something here...
Irresponsible parenthood is what happens when teenagers or adults fornicate with NO intention of taking care of a baby should one be conceived.
Irresponsible parenthood is parents who DO NOT take care of their children--not parents who do the best they can with what they have.
Dawn
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mrsgranola
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 4:49pm | IP Logged
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I'm glad to read this discussion. You have spoken to my heart, once again. (I just have gotten my cycles back, just before Emma turned 2 last week.)
JoAnna
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mairejam5
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 9:42pm | IP Logged
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Thank you all, ladies. You have helped me tremendously. Once again, you have been a great blessing to me.
Maire
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Jeanna
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| Posted: April 10 2007 at 6:01am | IP Logged
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Lisbet wrote:
I unfortunetly know how you feel, people all around me try to tell me we are not being responsible, we are selfish, only thinking of ourselves and the now, not the future, etc...
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Forgive me, but sometimes I just want to fall on the floor in a fit of laughter when I hear people say that. Being a mom has taught me selfless love and patience. It was before I was a mom that I was more selfish. As for the not thinking about the future comments, if I ever have the courage perhaps I'd retort that of course I'm thinking about the future....after all who's going to be paying your social security?
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Jeanna
Mommy of 7 arrows.....
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: How do you discern?
