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Willa
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I was just thinking about unschooling and the liberal arts education. I suppose one COULD do it by using the childrens' interests or to use Julie's word "affinities" as a starting point and then helping them see its connection to the greater things, rather as Newman recommends with his reading program.... in that way ascending to the philosophical view over time. He says that it doesn't really matter in a way where one starts, since everything is ultimately related (or something like that).
But I don't know if that's how one actually DOES it or if that's being too interfering with the process. At any rate, my kids tend to resist that kind of thing, so I find it healthier to encourage and support their self-directed interests rather than trying to run with them. I'm hoping that Homeschooling with Gentleness will answer some of my questions... so frustrating to find that it still hasn't arrived in my mailbox after they said it would be shipped by the 20th. 
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Leonie
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Willa, thanks for the quote from Newman wrt self education. It seems to fit with CM's quotes on self education - I am re-reading Karen Andreola's books right now and rememebering why I like CM's ideas. i think her focus on relationships ( with ideas and with people and with nature and the arts)is part of an excellent education.
And I still hold that this can be individualized - as Deborah describes when she talks of needing structure in her curriculum for her dd and for her children with disabilities.
Perhaps I am drawn to CM as I see it as an excellent educational model - relationships, character, content, self education. Skills and knowledge and morals and process.
Leonie in Sydney
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mom3aut1not
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Hi all!
I promised that I would relate what I gleaned from E.D. Hirsch's books that forced me to reconsider the methods, materials, and other means to achieve of my goal of having children who grow to be happy, independent, well-educated adults. When reading my points, please keep in mind that three of my four children are autistic; that made his books have a greater impact on me than they would otherwise.
From Cultural Literacy (I am just paging through right now) --
1) The pitfalls of considering only formalistic educations theory -- that we need only consider isolated skills and any content will do to teach them. Reading consists not only the skills of decoding, but also an acquaintance with the content being read. If I wrote a essay on commutative algebra -- the area of math that I hoped to get a PhD in -- and posted it on a typical hsing forum, most of the people reading would be immediately lost. That is because they would not know enough about the topic to understand my post even they are literate, thoughful people.
Another example is my PhD dh. He has highly developed analytical abilities, but he can't really use them with literature or music. He is not well acquainted with either area of study. We need both skills and some acquaintance with the subject matter. Moreover, as will be briefly alluded to below, critical thinking skills or problem solving skills tend to be specific to the general area of study.
2) Ch.II was new to me -- about background knowledge and its necessity in reading well. The gist of the chapter is if a person lacks background information on a subject, his ability to read that information will be significantly less than a person who is familiar with the topic even if their technical skills are the same. (There is experiential data to support this thesis.)
3) The next part of Ch.II was about the "psychologiccal structure of background knowledge." (p.48) One point to keep in mind is the inherent limitations of short-term memory (now called, I believe, working memory). How do we manage to think about various complex issues and situations while having this limitation?
The necessary knowledge we need while reading in order to make sense of what we read is not a lot. We don't need a whole lot of information generally speacking -- but we do need some. Actually we can't require too many pieces of information because our working memories limit how much information we can keep in mind while reading.
"The salient surface meanings that we pay attention to in reading thus stand (emphasis E.D.Hirsch's) for a whole world of relationships that we are not paying conscious attention to. When we really comprehend what we are reading, we are able to supply those implied background relationships. A schema functions as a unified system of background relationships whose visible parts stand for the rest of the schema, Because our narrow windows of attention confineus to only a few elements at a time,the technique of using surface elements to stand for larger wholes is an essential feature of our mental life.32" (p.54)
3) How much do we need to know about a topic to be able to use these schemata? How necessary is this minimum knowledge?
"What is functional in reading, writing, and conversing is the distinctive traits in the schemata we use -.... We need to know the primary traits commmonly associated with canary in our culture in order to deploy the associations rapidly when we encounter the word canary (in italics) in reading.
There is no subsittute for simply knowing these primary associations. They must be called up at lightning speed in the course of reading and conversing." (p.59)
Trying to read material where you have to figure out *many* words (not one or two which is fine) by association while we are reading is similar to using look-say with many unfamiliar words in a paragraph -- it is both tedious and discouraging. It is even worse to converse if much of the vocabulary is unknown to one of speakers as the words do not lie on a page for his contemplation. So a wide acquaintance with many things is necessary to read or converse well and with pleasure.
"But literacy requires us to have both intensive knowledge of relationships
and extensive knowledge of specfics." (p.59)
"Researchers have consistently found that people do not develop general, transferable skills in problem solving, critical thinking, or in any other field. 48" (p.62) Remember my dh with the highly developed problem solving and critical thinking skills in mathematics, but not literature.
From p.65 to p.69 E. D.Hirsch discusses the social-communication skills that normal people develop as they grow -- and which is of interest to me because autistic people don't learn these skills without a lot of help and often not even then. The revelance for most people is the poor performance of young children because they lack the knowledge of what other people can be expected to know -- a lack that will be remedied as they age if they are surrounded by a rich, cultural environment and are not autistic.
It is very hard to summarize the first few chapters of this book as they are somewhat technical and hard to reduce in a faithful way. But the content made me think. What were my conclusions?
1) My kids need to have a wide acquaintance with history, literature, mathematics, science, nature, and so on. It is not necessary to have them memorize the longest rivers in the world or similar minutia. They will develop the necessary schemata if they are exposed to and study a liberal arts curriculum.
2) My youngest dd impressed a local school librarian years ago. She told me that KE must read a lot because she always had something to offer when a topic was broguht up in "library time." She didn't really read at all -- she was still learning first grade phonics (she didn't finish until 4th grade). But I read to her about science, history, and so on. Moreover, KE is autistic, but that reading I did to her helped her to communicate with others. (Her pragmatic skills are still a work in progress, but one impediment to communication and social interaction is removed if she has "cultural literacy.")
3) Charlotte Mason's approach (in general) should give my kids the wide cultural knowledge necessary to make schemata necessary for them to read and converse as they can. Moreover, narration has been shown to be helpful with autistic children.
4) In particular a Charlotte Mason-type of education should give my children "both intensive knowledge of relationships and extensive knowledge of specfics" (p.59) necessary for literacy.
5) Unschooling would not give my children (especially not my autistic children) "both intensive knowledge of relationshipsand extensive knowledge of specfics" they need. It does matter what they study-not only that it should lead them to God, but even in secular terms. They need to be minimally conversant with many things. This need not be a drudgery; the world is an interesting place. Learning through living books as much as possible will give them this knowledge in an interesting, if not always easy, way. When I have used this approach -- more or less as I use picture books and visual aids to help my autistic children's receptive language extensively -- my children have learned much and with pleasure.
My autistic 5 yo son needs me so I will postpone my comments on The Schools We Need and Why We Need Them.
In Christ,
Deborah
who hopes she can get back to this tonight.
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mom3aut1not
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Hi y'all!
E.D.Hirsch part 2 (The Schools We Need and Why We Need Them) I will skip a lot of stuff I don't consider relevant to the education of my children. I also will not express my horror at the idea of sending very young children to school. <shudder>
1) The tool metaphor for education is inadequate. "To express the socioeconomic implications of education in the modern world, sociologists have devised the useful concept of 'intellectual capital." (p.19) This metaphor is a much better one to use when considering education. It also leads us to consider: of what should the intellectual capital our children gain consist? It also shows the harmful effects of the tools metaphor for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. They have tools -- they're often bright kids. What they don't have is the background knowledge middle class kids have. This deficit can be made up -- and is in other countries and in a few outstanding schools here -- but it has to be done so quite consciously.
2)"Pyschological research has shown the ability to learn something new depends on an ability to accommodate the new thing to the already known."(p.23) Obviously if you can't accommodate the 'new thing' to anything, you won't "get it." If this happens a lot, you may even decide not to try because it hurts to fail over and over. Consider the bright kids from illiterate families-- they often don't have the necessary background knowledge so they have trouble learning something a middle class child from an intact family that cheishes learning learns easily.
3) Thus a gap appears between students from "educationally rich" families and those from "educationally poor" families. A similar gap appears between students of different countries. American students are rarely at an advantage. While middle class American children from intact families that cherish learning are at a relative advantage compared to American children not so fortunate, their education is nothing to be proud of. They just suffer less harm. Thus, a typical American education is not what I want for my children; I want more.
4) However, "... giving young children enabling knowledge is inherently motivational; it liberates their natural eagerness to learn." (p.25) I think that a CM education does exactly this.
5) Something all new homeschoolers should know is that there is no standard curriculum. I remember almost freaking out about "What do third-graders have to know?" The truth is there is little consistency even in the same school as to what third graders are taught. This means that teachers really never know what their students have already learned; that is the reason for the horribly repetitive nature of most school curricuia. I remember looking at a scope and sequence for science and social studies for K-6. Often the same exact topic would be covered 5 years in a row. Gah!
I have found it to be a good idea to cover a topic thoroughly. I may repeat it *years* later when a child's understanding has grown, but I can't see doing the same exact topic five years in a row.
Since so much time is taken up by being repetitive, there is little time to really explore any topic. This is a major reason why textbooks are the way they are -- cursory, shallow, and scattered.
I do think that there should be a degree of commonality in what is taught, but right now I'm afraid of the peope who would set the standards. However, I can see that I want my children to have an education that is broad, generous, rich, and sufficient for further learning at will -- as well as oriented to the true, the good, and the beautiful.
I do recommend the parts of the book I haven't referred to. Well, most of them anyway. The simple fact of the matter is that most children will not be homeschooled. What sort of education should they have? As citizens of our respective countries, this should be of concern to us even if our own children never set foot in a school.
In Christ,
Deborah
PS To clarify one thing from my last post, I wish to add that my dd KE was not normally in school. She got Spec Ed services --speech and language therapy and social skills work. Library time was "social skills" time for her. It's kind of sad that she appeared so much more knowledgeable than her normal peers. Later on, KE's and KM's writing was the equal or better of their normal peers in school according to the speech therapists that worked with them. Really, really sad
.PPS Please excuse any typos or misspellings. I am having trouble with my glasses.
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juliecinci
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A friend of mine posted the following information on another site I visit and I thought it fit this topic.
Fr. Solanus Casey (1870-1957)
Fr. Solanus Casey was a Capuchin friar who was the doorkeeper of St. Bonaventure Monastery in Detroit for about twenty-one years. In 1995, John Paul the Great declared Fr. Solanus "Venerable."
What was so great about Solanus Casey? His alleged lack of academic abilities put his fitness for priestly ordination in question. But impressed with his "moral qualities," his superiors approved his ordination with the condition that he could not hear confessions or give doctrinal sermons. Because of those restrictions, Fr. Solanus' Detroit apostolate (this is the Catholic word for "ministry") took place over the porter's desk at the monastery where he met with thousands of individuals seeking healing and counseling. Many received both.
So the ordaining bishop made a very wise decision: this man was fit for the priesthood in spite of his apparent inability to jump through the academic hoops of the time, which included studies in German, Latin, and Greek. Yet, Fr. Solanus counseled people with great wisdom and empathy. Yet, Fr. Solanus was saintly. Yet, Fr. Solanus wrote with wit, wisdom, and even eloquence that displayed a first-rate intellect. All of these traits should put us on guard when judging anyone by conventional academic standards. It could be that the child or young student considered "disabled" or "slow" may in fact be a treasure that teachers and standard curricula are simply incapable of recognizing or nurturing. We should be on guard for committing the inanity of blaming the student for the unexamined defects of teachers and their methods. All students and teachers should remember this danger and avoid giving up on anyone.
Here are some quotes from Ven. Solanus :
"Man's greatness lies in being faithful to the present moment."
"God, who loves tiny beginnings, will know as He always does know, how and when to provide development."
"Who can fully appreciate the privilege that God has given us of the possibility of our helping God in the work of redemption. Our lives are blended with God's."
All this info taken from catholicanalysis.blogspot.com
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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tovlo4801
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I wanted to update you guys on where I am in this discussion right now. The revelation about school truly needing to be hard work hit me. I didn't like my son being unhappy in our school and was trying to find ways to justify educating him in a more "fun" way. It was a good intellectual journey for me to go on because I truly was WAAAY too structured and anxious about following a strict path before. But I had, in a whiplash reaction, swung too far in the other direction. As I've thought about it over the weekend, I keep coming back to the fact that I've always dismissed Charlotte Mason education. I've pulled pieces here and there that appeal to me, but I just didn't think on the whole it was for me. After reading so many comments about CM being the answer to my question, I decided to try reading her actual writings. I'm reading book 6 and have only gotten through the preface, introduction and started the first chapter, but I'm floored by how badly I have misjudged what CM education is and by how closely it truly does seem to match what I want to provide. We'll just see where it goes from here.
I am so thankful to everyone who has posted on this question and I hope that everyone else is finding some sort of answers to their own questions through this discussion.
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Elizabeth
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Dear Julie,
I posted a few weeks ago on the Living Faith board about a call to vocation despite academic weaknesses. You've just answered that post here! Thanks so much!
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Willa
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Deborah,
Thanks for writing out the summary of ED Hirsch's ideas. I read one of his books, Cultural Literacy, several years ago and what struck you also struck me.
It occurred to me however that if education is JUST "cultural literacy" then we ought perhaps to be exposing our kids to Britney Spears and the Da Vinci Code etc because that's what our "world" is talking about nowadays (or maybe not, but that's just an example). Yes, we need cultural literacy to understand the great books but if you don't have a rationale for reading the great books in the first place, there isn't much point in it when there's such a plethora of modern books with modern references.
I think CM, because her worldview is explicitly Christian, puts Hirsch's insights into their correct perspective because in her works, she talks about our cultural heritage being important in the values it transmits. She talks about how our cultural heritage helps us to not only live better, but even die better.
I'm in a hurry and hope this came off sounding "right" -- just adding to what you said about Hirsch, not trying to quibble or anything. I'm going back to your posts as a reference as I plan this summer; I found them very useful indeed.
Richelle, I am reading VOL 6 too and there is a Yahoo group called CM Series which is presently discussing this book from a CHristian perspective. I never got very far in vol 6 before because it's a bit harder read than some of the others but it IS well worth reading. I'd love to discuss with you if you ever come across anything you want to "process!"
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Elizabeth
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Richelle,
Feel free to open a thread named "CM Volume 6" to discuss as you go. It can go on this forum.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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mom3aut1not
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Willa,
I don't see your response as a quibble at all; Hirsch's perspective is completely secular. Since I was relating what I learned from his books, i didn't try to give a Catholic perspective. You are quite right.
As I see it, cultural literacy (as Hirsch sees -- not the ephemeral fluff of popular culture) is necessary, but not sufficient. Moreover, the reasons he gives -- political and economic-- for cultural literacy are important, but not of the greatest importance.
I'm glad you found myposts useful
On a not so related note -- Joseph is really starting to put sounds and letters together. I am so pysched! I was unhappy because last January he had a mild regression, but he is doing well in this area at least. And now to summer studies -- Montessori, math, phonics, insects, books, handwriting, and more!
In Christ,
Deborah
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Leonie
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Richelle,
I was going to post something this morning about CM and an excellent education.
Whenever I begin pondering an excellent education, I always find myself returning to CM's writings. They include the whole person, I think - academics and faith.
What is the title of volume 6 - is it School Education?
Leonie in Sydney
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juliecinci
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Leonie wrote:
Richelle,
Whenever I begin pondering an excellent education, I always find myself returning to CM's writings. They include the whole person, I think - academics and faith.
What is the title of volume 6 - is it School Education?
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Me too.
I would love to read along if people discuss book six.
One of my dear friends made me four bricks that I display in my entry that say "I am, I can, I ought, I will." I love them! To me, that is the way it ought to be.
I am - I start with the real me, who I am, what I'm about, how I am who I am in this world. Not some trumped up version for someone else, not somebody else's idea of who I should be, but the real me, as I am today (with flaws and strengths).
I can - I start with the faith that it takes to try, test, risk, expore. I can... whatever "I am" wants to attempt.
I ought - this is the development of recognizing that once I know who I am and that I can, I am now empowered to make choices (I ought to practice, to study, to pursue beyond what is easy for me). It also has a moral component - that is, I do something because now I've developed inside a sense of obligation that comes not from an external source, but from who I am and what I can do and who I'm related to.
I will - this is when I am ready to do what I don't feel like doing because I know who I am, I know my abilities, I've discerned what ought to be done and so now, I choose to do it!
So much of education goes the other way around:
You WILL... well, since you won't, then I tell you you OUGHT!
The reason you ought is that you can (you aren't stupid and you're able so get to it). And if you don't....
Then I'll make you.
After all, I am here to tell you who you are... You are X person who will, ought to and can do what I've determined for you.
I love CM.
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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tovlo4801
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The title of book six according to Ambleside Online is Philosophy of Education. I'm just reading it online.
I'd love to hear what others who are reading this book have to say. I'm not sure I have much to say about it myself just yet - I'm in the absorbing phase right now. I'd be happy to go ahead and start a topic and then I'll just follow along with whatever is being discussed. I'm sure it will add a richness to the reading. Thanks for suggesting it!
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julia s.
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momof3aut1norm wrote:
On a not so related note -- Joseph is really starting to put sounds and letters together. I am so pysched! I was unhappy because last January he had a mild regression, but he is doing well in this area at least. And now to summer studies -- Montessori, math, phonics, insects, books, handwriting, and more!
In Christ,
Deborah
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Deborah,
I just wanted to say congratulations on your son's success. I had a quick question, I saw on The Learning Channle a show about a family who had three autistic sons and one "normal" daughter and I was wondering if this was you? I figure there are probably more than one family with multiple autistic, but I figured the odds might still be that it was you I was watching.
Just curious. (sorry if the quote is titled wrong, but I deleted the original title you use and I couldn't remember if I got it right).
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julia
married to love of her life
with ds12 ds8 ds3 and ds1
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mom3aut1not
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Julia,
Nope. I have one nonautistic dd (she has adhd and some other problems), two autistic dds. and one autistic ds. Thank you for the congratulations. It's always nice to hear -- especially when he is delayed in so many ways.
Btw, there are other families with multiple autistic kids, but it's not very common. Right now the thought is that there are several genes involved. If a family has one autistic child, the chances are about 1 in 12 of another autistic child and 1 in 3 of some kind of disability (including autism). Since most peope only have a couple of kids, families with more than one autistic child are uncommon. (However, other generations in my family have a lot of autism in them as well.)
In Christ,
Deborah
pursuing an excellent education for the her children under 18 (After that, it's up to them.)
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julia s.
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mom3aut1not wrote:
Julia,
Nope. I have one nonautistic dd (she has adhd and some other problems), two autistic dds. and one autistic ds. Thank you for the congratulations. It's always nice to hear -- especially when he is delayed in so many ways.
Since most peope only have a couple of kids, families with more than one autistic child are uncommon. (However, other generations in my family have a lot of autism in them as well.)
In Christ,
Deborah
pursuing an excellent education for the her children under 18 (After that, it's up to them.)
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I guess when people have mupltiple disabilities in a family they may not have a lot of children. The woman in the program lived in Mass. and she sent her children to traditional schools and schools to help with their disability. Thanks for letting me inquire. My prayers are with you and your family as you pursue your excellent education.
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julia
married to love of her life
with ds12 ds8 ds3 and ds1
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tovlo4801
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I just had to jump back in here and share a new revelation. I decided to go to the Mercy Academy site and do their learning style test. mercy academy learning style test
I thought it would be a worthwhile endeavor, but I was unprepared for the lightbulbs the results set off for me. I did the test for both my K and my 6th grader. As I was reading over the results for each child, I was just amazed at how differently they both learn. I was also amazed to realize that instinctively I kind of knew what each one needed, but was struggling against what I thought I "should" be doing to provide an "excellent" education for each of them. I am currently most involved in actively educating my 6th grader. As everyone who's followed my comments on this conversation has probably figured out, I've been rebelling against too much structure and a certain style of education that just seemed to deaden any delight in education for my son. I've been naturally drawn toward a more relaxed style of education resembling CM or even possibly unschooling. As I read the results of my oldest son's learning style test, I could completely see why I was being drawn this way. His test placed him as needing to have an overview of the big picture and then time and materials to wrestle with the ideas within. The kind of education I've been leaning toward would suit him much better than the very structured, sequential, question/answer type education I was providing previously.
Then I moved on to the revelation of my youngest. I've been moving toward a lot less structure with my oldest child and as I've considered what to do with my youngest, I've naturally been planning similar type things for him. Yet with him I keep feeling pulled to scripted math programs and phonics workbooks. I push it aside and convince myself that it's unnecessary, but I keep toying with those things for him. Again, I think I had a natural understanding of what he needed and didn't have the confidence to trust it. His result came out as a very sequential type learner. According to the results he will learn things best by following a more structured, sequentially stepped-out plan. Lightbulbs! This is the son who knows exactly what we will be eating each day for each meal and is distressed if I change the plan. He begged to do the Sonlight Developing an Early Learner ? workbooks with me last year and he thrived on the scripting of Teach Your Child to Read.... I just hadn't considered that what was awful for my oldest might be exactly what my youngest needed. 
I'm just a little stunned by the wisdom contained in these little simple tests and how right on they both are. It explains so much of my current struggles. I kept stumbling over my worry that there was only one path to follow in excellently educating a child. I just couldn't figure out what it was. The clearness of how distinctly different each child's results were, illuminates for me that each child truly will require a different path. Maybe with some children the difference will be subtle. Maybe with others, like mine, the difference will be quite stark. It also illuminates the distinct possiblity for me that we as parents probably do have a pretty good idea of what each of our children need. Maybe we just need to have more confidence in our instincts.  Even when they differ from what this expert suggests or from what the really smart neighbor lady is doing with her children.  I think that instinct might be especially important when we see one child not thriving with the way we've settled on as the best way to educate.
I'm so grateful for a tool like this learning style assessment. I strongly recommend it. It was right on for my children. I'm sure it's not perfect and there will be children that won't quite fit, but I'm thinking it could really help you if you're struggling to figure out what direction to go for next year. The test does cost $20/child. With a large family that could get steep. I still think it's worthwhile, but it might be worthwhile just to test a child or two that you are most confused about how to reach. You might just not be approaching them the way they would learn best? I promise that I'm not being reimbursed for plugging the test! I'm just really happy that I stumbled across it and I hope that maybe it will be able to help some others with their own struggles.
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Courtney
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 796
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| Posted: June 07 2005 at 2:27pm | IP Logged
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I clicked on your link, Richelle for the Mercy Academy learning style test and got something for a deodorant at mothernature.com. Can you try the link again? Thank you!
__________________
Courtney in Texas
Wife to Mike since 3/94 
Mom to Candace 10/97,Christopher 4/00 and Connor 11/11
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tovlo4801
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Joined: Feb 28 2005
Location: Minnesota
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 386
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| Posted: June 07 2005 at 4:15pm | IP Logged
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OOOPS!  I must have pasted the link from my post for the natural products question. This should work. CORRECT Mercy Academy learning style test I was able to go in and edit my original post too.
Sorry for the confusion!
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: excellence in education - what is it?
