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MicheleQ Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Dec 02 2006 at 11:44pm | IP Logged
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Carole N. wrote:
Michele,
I knew that you were a seamstress, but did not realize that you made your own slips! I should have known! I am not sure that my sewing abilities are ... well let's just say that Home Economics was many moons ago, and I never excelled in the sewing area! Now if you want a great meal, I can help you that area.
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Well slips are some of the quickest and easiest things to sew. A great meal on the other hand is not my forte!
__________________ Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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SuzanneG Forum Moderator
Joined: June 17 2006 Location: Idaho
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Posted: Dec 02 2006 at 11:56pm | IP Logged
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Michaela wrote:
wear slacks)
Inspired, I plan to change my wardrobe. It's just so expensive. I follow the links posted & cant imagine spending that kind of money on myself.....per item...and I'd need it all ...boots, leggings, skirts, shirts....the thrift store purchases have inspired me to at least try to get skirts there. |
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I have had my black, Dansko riding boots for three years now and they look brand new, and I wear them all the time. I plan to get AT LEAST 10 years out of them. That's about $10/year.
Long underwear, leggings (the cotton/lycra exercise type...look in the activewear section) skirts, jumpers, dresses, sweaters....are all at thrift stores. I just got 2 pair of leggings....the kind everyone used to exercise in (but now they wear the bell-bottom kind) for $1/each. One is bright purple, but oh well, ...no one will see it.
You just have to start a couple of items at a time. This is a SEVERAL YEAR process.
Most thrift stores have HALF-OFF-EVERYTHING sales around most holidays...mem day, labor day, columbus day, etc.....watch for these....You could very well walk out of a store with 10 items in your hands for under $20. If you start with the thrift stores, you learn what you like/don't like without a lot of $$$.
Call your local thrift store and ask them if they have "half-off-everything-sales" and when is the next one. Mark it on the calendar !!
Suzanne in WA
mom to 4 girls - ages 5,4,3,9 months
Gladdest Hours
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SuzanneG Forum Moderator
Joined: June 17 2006 Location: Idaho
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 12:05am | IP Logged
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Michaela wrote:
One question....is there a reason a majority (if not all) in this thread seem to favor skirts over dresses?I can see more outfit options (change shoes & shirt...different look) & maybe even more comfortable with skirts. I feel stiff in a dress. |
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I actually prefer dresses and jumpers, but because I'm nursing and don't have many winter nursing dresses, it's all skirts this year, with my one black, knit nursing dress.
In the summer it's almost all dresses, even if nursing I have 3 that I wear constantly, with a couple skirts and a pair of capris occasionally.
It seems like there are less warm dresses out there. But for summertime, pretty, practical, casual, short-sleeve dresses are everywhere. I like short-sleeve or sleeveless dresses with a stretch-cardigan over it; but that's not warm enough for our weather.
Suzanne in WA
mom to 4 girls - ages 5,4,3,9 months
Gladdest Hours
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Lisbet Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2006 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 6:37am | IP Logged
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I wear skirts because I can nurse in them. I would much rather wear dresses, but nursig dresses are expensive. I do have a few that were handed down to me, but they are very dressy, so I only wear them for special occasions.
Michaela, I am one that doesn't shop lands end or LL bean, not because I wouldn't like to though! But I could never bring myself to spend that much on one item. I will admit, when it comes to shoes, I buy too many mostly because they don't last long or look nice for long. I usually buy mine at payless. Skirts come from a local consignment shop usually or Goodwill. Leggings were given to me from someone cleaning out her closet.
__________________ Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Angel Forum All-Star
Joined: April 22 2006
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 7:11am | IP Logged
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Thirteen pages, and now I have a question about socks. I wore a dress to my husband's office party last night, and realized I had overlooked probably the most critical aspect of dressing in skirts rather than pants:
Socks.
I know we have talked about cotton tights, leggings, and long underwear. But last night I remembered that I *hate* tights, and when I was out at Wal-Mart (the only game in this small town) the only socks they had that would come up to your knee were those thin trouser socks, which I also hate. I have to admit that socks are a big deal for me, because the wrong kind of fabric or stepping on a seam will drive me absolutely insane. I actually ordered a couple of skirts yesterday -- I still had some Lands End gift card money floating around, and I found the A-Line knit skirt in my size on overstocks. (They had more petites than regular sizes yesterday).
But, socks??? Can anyone tell me that they wear nice, comfortable cotton knee socks with a little padding and warmth, and where you get those? Maybe I can find them online. (Actually, I have been following the thrift store conversation with some wistfullness, because I have to drive an hour or more to the nearest Goodwill or consignment shop. The closest town with anything only has a Wal-Mart and a Fashion Bug.)
--Angela
Mom to 3+2
Three Plus Two
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Philothea Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 15 2006 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 7:57am | IP Logged
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A found another "week in the life" type post when I googled for "modest dresses." This woman makes and sells them and posted pictures of herself and her daughter doing chores in skirts throughout a week. She's protestant and covers her head, though, so don't be surprised when you see that.
http://www.wendysmodestdress.com/id44.htm
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ALmom Forum All-Star
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 8:25am | IP Logged
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Well, I finally read through all the posts and I feel overwhelmed - probably because everyone seems so thin and put together and I am 60 pounds overweight and 4 years after the last baby, I am still being asked if I am pregnant (no matter what I wear) and I have no confidence when it comes to anything like color, style, attractiveness, etc. whether it is for the house or myself or the children. I have been increasingly convinced that I have to somehow learn this art - would one of you ladies please move here so you can be my mentor? Seriously, at least I have some pictures now, some ideas, etc. I am so grateful for all the honest questions and the answers (thanks for the question about exactly what the different types of skirts were - I never knew and was wondering myself) - and comforted to know I am not alone in being overweight - and there won't be any pics from me either for a while (not that they would do anyone any good unless I somehow learn how to shop). I'm just not sure that the wonderfully stylish skirts would look good on me. Yet, I know the ones I do wear don't.
My problem hasn't been with dresses/skirts only. I've been doing that so long that I forget exactly when (I think with baby one or two). My reasons were combination ones - a conviction on modesty (and setting an example for the girls) and being a bit more feminine but also because pants were plain uncomfortable. I've bumbled around and know that there is more to being feminine than just wearing skirts or dresses - that is the art I want to develop and seem to bumble so much.
My problem is that I have no sense of what looks good or doesn't, how to select something that looks good on me and I hate to shop. I have absolutely no sense of style. I grew up taking whatever from the box of clothes that came our way - and even now have some pretty funny shoes simply because someone gave them to me - they flop a bit so I haven't worn any shoes except some Wal-Mart clogs. I bought one nursing dress from a mail order seamstress(nursing panels were not loose enough for me to feel comfortable in it and I spent more money on that dress than I ever spent on any single item in my life ) and I was asked where I ordered my dress from so that the person could order something from the catelogue for costumes. I really need some help here but appreciate the idea of a thrift store as I wouldn't mind experimenting and making mistakes as much if the price was really, really inexpensive. It is just that I don't want to spend so much on clothes - but I'm reading the posts here and wondering anew. Perhaps if I really knew something would last a long time, look nice, neat, put together and modest when I was done, I wouldn't mind so much.
I've gone from 106 lb to yikes! I'm only 5 ft stretching with a pregnant looking belly but no baby and have very short legs. The belly problem is new (mostly since my last 11 pound baby)but I've always had bigger hips. I'm struggling a bit with why I cannot seem to shed the extra pounds. Anyways hopefully the exercise bike will help. In the meantime, what is slenderizing for both waist and hips (do the skirts already recommended for slenderizing the stomach work for short and not skinny legs and hippy too? I want something very inexpensive as I hope to lose at least some of this excess weight.
The skirts/dresses thing was easy for me - much more comfortable. Pants never fit right even when I was 106 lb because my waist was so small back then and I'm so short. If they fit around the hips then you could have put two fists down the waist. Now I doubt I could even find anything if I looked.
Someone asked about maternity - well I never could wear any maternity clothes except old dresses from long ago. The stuff with panels in it cut off circulation long before I even got to the first trimester. When you are short and your babies are big, you just stretch a lot and early. I found half sizes worked better for me - and you can get those anywhere. I went with half size skirts and tops when pregnant and since these are made for larger women, they do at least tend to attempt to be slimming. Unfortunately, I am still wearing these and stuff made for bigger women tend to also be for taller women so many skirts in the stores would never work for me (they'd have to be cut off many inches just to come to my ankles). I am currently wearing skirts that were designed to be probably mid-calf but on me they fit as if they were long dresses (to the ankle). Now this gets in the way coming up the stairs as I'm often carrying something and cannot hold up the skirt and end up stepping on it.
I really like reading and seeing the posts - but I really think I need someone with a sense of style to go shopping with me or I'll end up at home in tears with nothing.
As far as our two daughters wearing feminine clothing - well it is hard to cope with styles if you do not sew. I learned how to make jumpers for the girls out of desperation and that is what they wore until they hit around teens. Suddenly that didn't work anymore - and I was left fending in the stores. I think the oldest would have stuck with dresses/skirts if I'd have known what kinds of things to point her to that would blend in a bit and not stand out. She was very petite so was always being mistaken for an 8 - 10 yo as a teen and we tend to be oddballs around here anyways. My oldest had such a sense of style and I think my out-dated appearance was a negative influence on her. She went to lots of pants in her teens, but of course always wore a skirt or dress to church. She sews and makes or modifies things to fit and be more modest and was wearing skirts a bit more for a while till she had to bike to classes. The skirts get tangled in the bike if they are longer and are not modest if they are not at least mid calf and here there is the problem of red clay splattering. I'd love to get her something stylish and modest for everyday college wear (but it cannot be old ladyish) for Christmas that she could actually wear while riding a bike but am afraid I'd really bomb. Cold weather is not a big problem here.
My other dd is such an active girl and she too wore the dresses I made for a long time - but she was so active that she was mostly in pants, hanging upside down etc. and I didn't press the matter as it seemed more practical for her to have nice, loose fitting pants. Her latest favorite thing is going hunting (bow and arrow) with my dad. For this she wears the very masculine camoflauge pants and boots with hunter orange vest (required for safety). Funny thing though, she observed that if you want pants that they don't mess with, go to the hunting department. We also got t-shirts in the boys department for a while simply because she wanted a plain shirt with no writing on it. We just noticed that now they are writing on the boys shirts too. She doesn't want to be a walking billboard. We picked up a few t-shirts at Hobby Lobby to go with her skirts but these don't hold up well. She got frustrated with trying to find pants in the jrs (all below the belly, etc.)for basic gatherings as she put it - when you want something that is more formal than blue jeans or hunting pants but that makes you prepared to jump in when the freeze tag game through woodsy areas gets started. Well your threads from earlier helped me as it would never have occured to me to suggest different kinds of skirts. This daughter is now almost always in a skirt - except when she goes hunting. Perhaps hunting isn't the most feminine activity but I'm just not discouraging it right now as it is exercise for her, and tons healthier (imo) than a 15 yo girl fixating on going shopping, talking about guys and ... She really is truely feminine!
Maybe I'm off base, but being relaxed a bit and flexible while setting the example myself seems to allow the girls to embrace the skirts more.
I will say that the Sister Servants have done all kinds of things in their habits - there are pictures of one driving some kind of construction vehicle. They were also on the roof at one point putting on the roof. it appears that they have more helpers now - but when it was required to get started, they were able to manage fine in their habits. They did use "aprons" looked a bit like their habit but worn over them like an apron.
As far as the question about getting dirty in dresses - I simply get dirty in whatever I am in. I cannot even do a simple job like washing dishes without having a huge wet spot on my belly. I like the idea of an apron for at least the kitchen. Those are the only stains that seem to be permanent (the grease splattering stains). I think, for me,the fear of getting something dirty is more a matter of how much I paid for something. If it is $1 - $5, I'm not so worried. If it is $20 or more, I really have trouble.
But now there is a related question. So many of you speak of it being worth it to get quality clothing. I've tended to be a "go for the cheap and save money" but I'm beginning to see that sometimes this doesn't really save money. Does buying something really nice, encourage you to be a better steward and take better care of it? I've been pondering this - wondering if I should just get up enough courage to spend a bit more for something nicer - But then how can you tell if something is really quality?
Thank you so much for all these posts. I plan to save this and ponder it for a while.
Janet
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Bridget Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 12:47pm | IP Logged
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Janet, being tall, I have the opposite problem of finding the right length. I don't have a good fashion sense either, Suzanne has inspired me.
I have a good friend who is quite heavy. Partly from her 12 children, partly from genetics.
She always looks nice. Her hair is always nicely, simply cut and styled, she wears a little make up and her clothes are classic. Always dresses or skirts. I think she learned how to do the right make up for her, makes the extra effort to find clothes that work, and she does well with her colors. She does go for quality clothes as they are usually cut better for larger women.
Most importantly, she smiles. She is gentle and sweet to her family, devout in the faith. One would call her beautiful in spite of her weight.
__________________ God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Lissa Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005 Location: California
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 2:52pm | IP Logged
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Wow, what a big thread!
May I back up to tights for a moment? I have one pair of black Hanna Andersson cable-knit tights, and I love love love them. Even here in balmy SoCal, I find myself reaching for them a couple of mornings a week when we go to the 8 a.m. Mass. (And I am loving how a pair of warm tights and a light sweater is all the cold-weather gear I've needed so far! Big heavy coats are one thing I won't miss...)
Anyway, my one cherished pair of tights has seen several winters and I could use another pair. But ACK, it seems Hanna Andersson is no longer carrying the cable-knits in women's sizes! Here's the girls' version so you can see what kind I mean.
Lands End doesn't have them either. Does anyone know of another source? I find them much comfier than the regular smooth cotton tights.
I admit I come home from Mass and change back into my jeans. Every time I've thought about making the switch to skirts only, my husband has made it very clear this would not be his preference. He likes me in jeans. Sometimes I have to laugh over the irony—he wouldn't mind if I wore skirts every day as long as I sometimes changed into my Levi's before he got home from work.
__________________ Lissa
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Michaela Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 25 2005 Location: Washington
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 3:38pm | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
Every time I've thought about making the switch to skirts only, my husband has made it very clear this would not be his preference. He likes me in jeans. |
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Last night, I asked my husband what does he prefer...my every day look (jeans/sweats) or the way I dress on Sunday and when I have classes at church.
Oh, I also asked for his thoughts on the way women dress...what he thought about various styles or the lack of style.
He is sooooo funny. He says he doesn't care which way I dress as long as I'm comfortable and he never notices how other women dress. He's very easy going. It's true because he bought me a very big, thick, snowman covered robe yesterday that I would have passed up. Instead of feminine, pretty, silky something. He said it looked like I'd be more comfortable.
I told him I don't think that's exactly true. (He's just used to my appearance now.) Because when I come out of our bedroom dressed up, makeup, and hair styled... I see a sparkle in his eyes. As if he was thinking, "Now THAT is the woman I married!" or a look that I don't see anymore.
Yesterday I went to get my haircut (same style for 20 years...SHORT) Problem is I weigh 50 lbs more & was young when I started wearing it. The style shows age & all facial flaws now. short style .. the image is of Halle Berry (who I DO NOT favor ) Same skin color & hair color, but my body is much thicker. LOL
While I sat in the chair I had this feeling I shouldn't do it. (All the talk of femininity on the boards was playing in my mind! ) Well, she cut it a little too short on top. Obviously, with that style there is no room for mistakes...I really look like a boy now. I got home and Nathan said, "Mom, you look like a boy." THAT'S IT!! (When we were in the bathroom after Mass today...as I looked in the mirror I said to myself, "I look like a boy!" Nathan said, "I told you." <rolling my eyes>
As if this post isn't long enough....I did go to a mom & pop thrift store (no where near the size of Goodwill) and the skirts are $2 with 50% off. I didn't pick any because most were mid thigh or barely to my knees.
They were very nice though...no fade and lined...good quality. So I'll head to Goodwill to see what they have.
__________________ Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
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Lisa R Forum All-Star
Joined: May 29 2005 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 5:03pm | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
Every time I've thought about making the switch to skirts only, my husband has made it very clear this would not be his preference. |
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Funny, my dh said something very similar. He thinks I look very nice in slacks (I don't where jeans. Just never could get comfortable in them). He said he doesn't care what I wear as long as I'm comfortable. Boy, he was a lot of help!
__________________ God Bless!
Lisa, married to my best friend, Ray and loving my blessings Joshua (17)and Jacob(15), Hannah(7) and Rachel (5)!Holy Family Academy
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JennGM Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 8:21pm | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
Wow, what a big thread!
May I back up to tights for a moment? I have one pair of black Hanna Andersson cable-knit tights, and I love love love them. ....Anyway, my one cherished pair of tights has seen several winters and I could use another pair. But ACK, it seems Hanna Andersson is no longer carrying the cable-knits in women's sizes! Here's the girls' version so you can see what kind I mean. |
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I noticed that about the cable tights at Hanna...I didn't know they had ever carried them, but wondered why they didn't have them in the women's sizes. You solved a mystery for me. Have you tried their other tights? Feedback?
I'm not a jean person, but I can understand you dh's feelings. My dh doesn't mind the pants at all, and in fact likes them. So...we try to please in small ways.
__________________ Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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JennGM Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 8:30pm | IP Logged
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Michaela wrote:
Yesterday I went to get my haircut (same style for 20 years...SHORT) Problem is I weigh 50 lbs more & was young when I started wearing it. The style shows age & all facial flaws now. short style .. the image is of Halle Berry (who I DO NOT favor ) Same skin color & hair color, but my body is much thicker. LOL
While I sat in the chair I had this feeling I shouldn't do it. (All the talk of femininity on the boards was playing in my mind! ) Well, she cut it a little too short on top. Obviously, with that style there is no room for mistakes...I really look like a boy now. I got home and Nathan said, "Mom, you look like a boy." THAT'S IT!! (When we were in the bathroom after Mass today...as I looked in the mirror I said to myself, "I look like a boy!" Nathan said, "I told you." <rolling my eyes>
As if this post isn't long enough....I did go to a mom & pop thrift store (no where near the size of Goodwill) and the skirts are $2 with 50% off. I didn't pick any because most were mid thigh or barely to my knees.
They were very nice though...no fade and lined...good quality. So I'll head to Goodwill to see what they have. |
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Our thrift shops, Goodwill and Salvation Army are picked over around me...so it's a deadend for me.
I think the length of hair is personal...that Halle Berry hairdo is quite feminine. I know what you mean about the weight in the face doesn't look the same. I cut my hair shorter, like a bob when I was pregnant, but it just made me look like a mushroom.
I don't think that there is a "one size fits all" for hair....we're not in a evangelical church that mandates skirts and long hair for women.
__________________ Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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MicheleQ Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 8:44pm | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
Does anyone know of another source? I find them much comfier than the regular smooth cotton tights. |
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Lissa,
Here's what I found:
cotton cable knit tights
Thick cable knit tights
Soft Merino Wool Tights
__________________ Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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SuzanneG Forum Moderator
Joined: June 17 2006 Location: Idaho
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 11:31pm | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
Our thrift shops, Goodwill and Salvation Army are picked over around me...so it's a deadend for me.
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There is another shopping avenue that hasn't been discussed (believe it or not )
I just posted here about shopping for clothes on E-bay.
Suzanne in WA
mom to 4 girls - ages 5,4,3, 9 months
Gladdest Hours
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Tina P. Forum All-Star
Joined: June 28 2005 Location: N/A
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Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 11:36pm | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
May I back up to tights for a moment? I have one pair of black Hanna Andersson cable-knit tights, and I love love love them ... one cherished pair of tights has seen several winters and I could use another pair. But ACK, it seems Hanna Andersson is no longer carrying the cable-knits in women's sizes! Here's the girls' version so you can see what kind I mean.
Lands End doesn't have them either. Does anyone know of another source? |
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WHAT!?!? These are the tights I have. I thought I linked them earlier on in this mammoth conversation. I actually have two pairs: one black, one off-white. Oh, I am fretting. My tights have lasted for years as well, but when it's time to replace them, where do we go?
I'll write Hanna and see what's happened to them. Hey Lissa, I fit into a girl's shoe at Hanna. Maybe we could fit into girls' tights as well ... ? Well, it's just a thought.
God bless,
__________________ Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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Elizabeth Founder
Real Learning
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Posted: Dec 04 2006 at 5:23am | IP Logged
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Tina P. wrote:
I'll write Hanna and see what's happened to them. Hey Lissa, I fit into a girl's shoe at Hanna. Maybe we could fit into girls' tights as well ... ? Well, it's just a thought.
God bless, |
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I can wear a girls' shoe there too. Lissa you could wear a girl's tight size. I guarantee it.
__________________ Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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SuzanneG Forum Moderator
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Posted: Dec 04 2006 at 3:28pm | IP Logged
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anyone? anyone? This skirt must fit someone here. Not crazy about the "button downs," cuz they come undone....but a seam can be sewn to fix that.
Liz Claiborne Denim Skirt
Waist 32-37"
Hip 48"
Length: 37"
$7!!!! (so far) plus shipping (probably $4-9)
Suzanne in WA
Gladdest Hours
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Philothea Forum All-Star
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Posted: Dec 04 2006 at 3:40pm | IP Logged
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Okay, I stopped by the thrift store just to take a look-see ... I found 2 gorgeous wool skirts and a comfy Lands End jersey skirt. Total cost for all three skirts: $4.33.
Plus, I have been looking everywhere for a hanging wood-framed mirror with a shelf and hooks for organization, but didn't want to spend more than $100. Well, they had a beautiful one there that even included two small drawers in it, with the Eddie Bauer tag still on it for $159. They charged me $10 for it!
I got a hardcover Catholic book I've been wanting that just came out last year, too. Only $2! Total spent at the thrift store: $16.33. For three skirts, a designer entryway organizer, and a brand new hardcover book. I'm floored! Thank you, ladies, for the inspiration, and thank you Holy Spirit and Mother Mary for steering me to that particular store today!
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Tina P. Forum All-Star
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Posted: Dec 04 2006 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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Suzanne, or maybe Michele:
I have a straight denim skirt with buttons down it. I like it A LOT! It's a pretty skirt, but I *am* realizing a lot of trouble wearing it. Perhaps the last person did, too, because it looks new. I'm wondering what I can do to sort of fix it. Can I make it more user friendly? I don't think I want just a seam, I want a panel of stretch fabric somewhere. I have a long stride for a person of average height. Maybe I can send it to you, Michele, and in all your free time you can come up with something creative to do with it?
Oh, and to boot, I am so completely not a happy sewing mom. Any ideas?
Philothea, that is WONDERFUL news! I do have complete faith that God steers us to what we need when we need it.
__________________ Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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