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Angel
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| Posted: Nov 15 2011 at 4:03pm | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
We should have two threads -- potagers in city/suburban yards and ones in the country. I have minimal space, dh is not ready to give up all his yard, and we have HOA. So I can dream big, but it's not going to happen. Every day we regret that we didn't get that house on 5 acres.  Sigh.
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You know, actually one of the reasons we decided to go with a potager (other than the fact that all we kept hearing from people was that nothing would grow in this tan clay) was that we had moved from the country to a neighborhood, and we wanted it to look nice from the street. Our neighbors across the street work on their yard constantly and are bent on turning it into a botanical garden, I think, so there's a little stress with our mob.  Anyway, looking back on the years I did spend in a suburban house with a small yard -- and our experience with neighbors who actually complained because we wanted to grow vegetables -- I think that having that word "potager" in your arsenal would open a lot of doors.
"What's a potager?"
"Oh, it's a kind of French garden..."
Anyway, if you don't have a lot of space and you have neighbors to consider, I would *highly* recommend the Jennifer Bartley book linked at the beginning of this thread, Designing the New Kitchen Garden. She has plans for lots of different spaces, and so many photos for inspiration, including photos of her own garden, which is in a smallish neighborhood type space. It's gorgeous. I can't imagine any HOA complaining about it. And I don't think it takes up her entire yard.
A couple of other links:
I stumbled across a food blog today which includes pictures of small, city gardening: Vertical Growing and Blackberries were posts with pictures I found particularly interesting. If I didn't have a lot of space, I would use as much vertical space as I could. If I didn't have a fence, I would find a reason to put one up. I know in the pictures our garden looks gigantic, but the actual space with the beds in it really isn't. I used a lot of trellising -- bean towers, etc. -- this summer and those L-beds produced more than I would have thought possible. I think if I had less space that was roughly square, I would see if I could make 4 L's to fit it, and put an obelisk in the middle to grow upward. Then I would go looking for fences and foundation planting areas. Blueberries, in particular, make great ornamental plants for front landscaping beds. A hotel we stayed at in Burlington, VT had blueberries outside its lobby. They looked beautiful. The flowers, berries, and autumn foliage all work quite nicely in that role.
Besides that, I think that, having gardened in a huge space in NY, and in a smaller space here, it is easier to keep up with a smaller garden and therefore, to have it produce better. So there are advantages to smaller spaces. And I am pretty positive that not everyone needs 12 boysenberry bushes.
Some more great pictures: Urban Homestead photo gallery. The whole website is a wealth of information, but of course, they have taken up their whole yard. Scale back a little, and I think it's very interesting.
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Angela
Mom to 9, 7 boys and 2 girls
Three Plus Two
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Nov 18 2011 at 7:46am | IP Logged
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mackfam wrote:
| In the French Garden: The Joys of Cultivating a Potager by Georgeanne Brennan - This little book is really an extension of that last chapter in her other book, Potager: Fresh Garden Cooking in the French Style. Brennan is really inspired by the time she spent in France, and this book is very influenced in that regard. I like the way it is set up: seasonally. And there are some good ideas for the how-to of approaching the different seasonal chores and delights of a kitchen potager, as well as some design ideas, but I didn't care for the illustrations in this book as opposed to the lovely and inspiring photographs in some of the other books. |
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I have many of the books you suggested waiting to be read, but I 'm really enjoying this one. One reason is its manageable size. My baby is often resistant to me holding any book while holding him, but big coffe table books are impossible!!!
I'm also enjoying reading about gardening. Sometimes, when books have all those pretty pictures, I forget to read them and just turn through them repeatedly staring google eyed  Reading this is helping me wrap my imagination around the lifestyle of keeping a garden.
But, the ultimate praise for the illustrations is that my three year old is obsessed with this book and cried when I asked for it back so I could read it
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Nov 18 2011 at 12:22pm | IP Logged
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All right, so I finished that book and have delved heavily into this one:
mackfam wrote:
| The New Kitchen Garden: A Complete Practical Guide to Designing, Planting, and Cultivating a Decorative and Productive Garden by Anna Pavord - If you're familiar at all with Dorling Kindersley (DK) books then you'll have a sense of the format and the layout of this book. DK books are illustrated beautifully with a mix of hand-drawn (highly accurate) illustrations and photographs. I find the book a great source of information especially because Pavord really spends great effort to incorporate strategies for berries, flowers, flowering trees, fruit trees, vegetables and herbs, root vegetables :: ALL OF IT! There is a nice section on gardening styles at the beginning. The middle/meat of the book spends time looking at individual page spreads of information on growing many, many different vegetables, herbs and fruit. And the end section of the book has planning and cultivation techniques. It's a very informative book - more information here than inspiration. (I have the 1996 version of this book) |
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Loved it! Lots of good information one I will consider purchasing to keep as reference. I was very inspired by the first chapter, especially with the decorative octagonal structure for growing fruit that will support a net once the trees are fruited. I dream about having an orchard but thought it was impractical because of the deer. A structure like this would make it possible. Also, since I've talked my husband into moving the potager up near the house, now I can put in an orchard in the back where we were going to put the garden
I think that's what I like best about this book, how it gives the basics for such a variety of gardens presenting you with many practical options if not showing a huge amount of variety for each type.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Nov 18 2011 at 12:27pm | IP Logged
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One thing I keep thinking about is quantity. I know that much of that is trial and error, but I do find it frustrating that so often, they simply say something vague like, " one or two plants is plenty" or even "an x by x plot is sufficient" when, I assume, they mean "for a family of four who eats out a couple of times a week" NOT "for a family of 6-8 who eats three meals a two snacks prepared from scratch practically 7 days a week."
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Angel
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| Posted: Nov 19 2011 at 8:42pm | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
One thing I keep thinking about is quantity. I know that much of that is trial and error, but I do find it frustrating that so often, they simply say something vague like, " one or two plants is plenty" or even "an x by x plot is sufficient" when, I assume, they mean "for a family of four who eats out a couple of times a week" NOT "for a family of 6-8 who eats three meals a two snacks prepared from scratch practically 7 days a week."
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Quantity has always mystified me, too. I think it depends on what you like and what you don't like to a great extent. That small bed of greens that we have is enough for us because my kids don't particularly like greens, so it's mostly just my dh and I eating them. But my neighbors in back plant almost their entire large garden in greens (mustard, turnip, kale, collards etc.) every fall. It also depends on variety, because some bear better than others. And it depends on your season. In NY, I always had to plant lots of cucumbers and never had enough to pickle. In MS, I planted what I thought was a reasonable number of plants, and I was hauling in 18 lbs of cucumbers every few days until the squash bugs decimated them. I ended up composting a lot of them because I just couldn't handle the volume.
There's a chart with quantities for a family of 6 in Five Acres and Independence if I remember correctly, but a lot of is given in row feet. Also, I remember that the quantity of asparagus plants was rather staggering.
An old Victory Garden quantity chart... "if space is unlimited".
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 7:41am | IP Logged
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What a roller coaster we had in our Potager plans (which, as much as I might try and be sophisticated and enjoy pulling my hair back in a loose bun, there is not a French bone in my body, and in spite of two semesters of French in college, I read it as "Paht-ah-jer" every. time.--and still like the word) this weekend.
Do you remember that quote from Anne of Green Gables?
Quote:
| I can't help flying up on the wings of anticipation. It's as glorious as soaring through a sunset... almost pays for the thud. |
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Yeah. I do that. The thudding I mean.
But, it really does seem worthwhile once I get up, dust myself off, and find the reality that is closer to my dreaming than I might otherwise have discovered had I been completely practical and pragmatic in my approach prior.
You see, there are these pesky things known as budgets...
We plotted out where the garden fence boundaries make the most sense, and when we price out the cost...holy cow!!! 
Dh even bought the wood to make one section of his fence design so we could see it in front of the house. It was lovely.
So, we worked through what seemed like every variation of that, and nothing seemed to work out to much less. And other alternatives such as putting the garden somewhere else seemed awful because that's a lot of work and $$ invested in something being somewhere you don't want it. 
I must admit, I mentally cursed the deer many times. But truly, I have to keep reminding myself, there are SO many that come SO close to the house, they really would view a garden without a fence as their own personal salad bar. I just wanted to throw a great big pity party because, darn it, they just made everything so much more complicated! 
And so we went from this:
to utter despair that we couldn't do anything
to this:
and finally back to our original footprint in the front side yard but with this
 and a lot of hope that our neighbors are patient until we work our way back up to this:
Part of what contributed to the wooziness today from the ride yesterday is that I was at "despair" at bedtime but worked my way back up through the options during crazy baby induced insomnia (poor guy was a mess last night!) and finally back through things alongside my husband when he was awake with me with the baby in the early hours this morning.
It is SO hard to figure out the money thing  (Isn't it always  ). Balancing what is enough to make it enjoyable enough that it will actually be used enough to get a return. But, our CSA we'd gotten the past two years just went up in price from $750 a share to $900!!! Not worth it when I could grow what we LOVE. I figure that since it only lasts 5 months when I could be eating from the garden, if not so very plentifully, for twice that time, well, it seems to make sense financially to a certain point. Not to mention the freedom and security felt in knowing you could grow food for your family to live on  I miss that feeling this year!
Anyway, figuring it all out sure makes me all
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 7:56am | IP Logged
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Oh I do know what you mean, Lindsay! We're essentially starting from scratch here...and the budget is a serious constraint. Thud. But, as Anne would say, there is still much scope for the imagination!
Your plastic fence option, while admittedly not the most aesthetically pleasing option, could be made more livable if you let the boys plant Morning Glorys all around the fence and just let them climb. We did that in my brother's gardens this year. We didn't have the heart to plant anything in them, and we couldn't pull up anything he already had growing, so we staked all of the little Potager's with bamboo and just let the Morning Glorys climb. Then, I gathered seeds from the Morning Glorys a couple of weeks ago, and I'll let the kids plant Uncle Chris' Morning Glory seeds on the perimeter of our Potager, which will likely be fenced in the same dramatic and festive plastic fencing that you will have to opt for. Not ideal this year, but workable until I can get my little white picket fence around it! 
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SallyT
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Oh, I love Morning Glories! They cover a multitude of aesthetic sins. You can also grow peas and beans up fencing.
Sally
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 11:04am | IP Logged
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ok.. I'm much more practical on some levels.. and if I'm gonna have a garden to eat out of.. well then I start thinking of things that are pracical to help the fence.. like berry bushes that will protect themselves.. though I suppose since the deer will eat on their side of the fence something more deer proof would be better than trying to do pole bean or such on the fence.
As far as amounts, also consider your cost.. for instance.. it costs a lot more to buy tomatoes then to buy potatoes.. so with limited space.. I'll use it for tomatoes.
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 11:49am | IP Logged
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Yes, Jodie! I certainly plan on doing some berries. Of course, the first year, they probably won't be established enough to do much, and morning glory seeds are much more economical up front.
I've never had it, but I've always liked Clematis as a flowering vine. It is not so prolific, though. I've also considered honeysuckle. Back home, it was a weed, but here, it is less unruly and people actually grow it intentionally, lol. I always liked it, though, weed or no, and it would be good fence cover that wouldn't be so sad to say goodbye to once we were able to get the nicer fence.
I'd also (though, not this year) like to try espalier, and I'm wondering if you can grow it on wire that is strung independently so that I would not damage it by changing the fence.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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SallyT
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| Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 12:57pm | IP Logged
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Jodie --
True, I was forgetting that the whole object of the fence was to repel deer! Food on the outside of the fence would not be good.
Sally
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CrunchyMom
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JodieLyn wrote:
As far as amounts, also consider your cost.. for instance.. it costs a lot more to buy tomatoes then to buy potatoes.. so with limited space.. I'll use it for tomatoes. |
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This is what made me It was trying to figure out how to use the FRONT yard as a small space and fence it in with a TALL fence. Aesthetically, it worked to enclose a larger space, not just with the fence being pretty, but with how things looked from the road. I live in a very established little neighborhood, and I'd really hate for anyone to think I'd made it an eyesore, yk? It really isn't vanity so much as FEAR
ETA: Sorry that didn't make sense. What I mean is, I'm okay with limiting my space and do plan to limit my beds this year and sort of do things in stages, but I couldn't figure out how to make a "limited" space work WITH the fence in front. Craziness I tell you. That's why I was so close to despair--it felt like it was all or nothing
I did order an English seed catalog just because I've heard that they have tons more varieties of sweet peas. That is a lovely flower that I'd love to grow on my fence as well.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JennGM
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I did order an English seed catalog just because I've heard that they have tons more varieties of sweet peas. That is a lovely flower that I'd love to grow on my fence as well.
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Please DO share the source!
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Jennifer G. Miller
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CrunchyMom
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Thompson and Morgan I had to look it up as I couldn't remember the name.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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stellamaris
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| Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 11:00pm | IP Logged
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A word of experience here...sadly, I have not been very successful with the sweet peas in Virginia. It seems to get too hot, too soon in the spring. Sweet peas love the cooler weather. My sisters in the Pacific Northwest collect gorgeous bouquets every spring from their gardens, but I tried two years in a row out here and had no success. Maybe one of you gardeners has a tip for me on this? I do love them!
Also, morning glories are beautiful climbing flowers, but can become invasive. We have them on a back lattice fence that hides our heat pumps, so with nothing else along that fence, I don't need to really pay any attention to them. If they were near my herb garden, though, I think I'd be doing a lot of weeding or at least have to dead-head pretty frequently. Clematis grow well in the East and are a little better behaved  . You can fertilize them with Holly Tone or another azalea/rhododendron type fertilizer and they can get about 6-8' and quite full. They like their "feet" (roots) to be shaded, but their "heads" (top) to be exposed to sun.
Two other plants we've had trouble with as far as being invasive are trumpet vine and lemon balm. I love the lemon balm in my herb bed, but it has gotten everywhere...it is in the mint family . This year I did some major eradication!
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Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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CrunchyMom
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Thanks, Caroline! Wow, I would never have thought about lemon balm being in the mint family. I have a large container that is overrun with an older tarragon plant. I was thinking I might put some mint in there and let them duke it out 
I had some lovely sweet peas in a container a few years ago. I planted them when I planted my regular peas. I was sad I only had the one packet, but I didn't remember to get more in time since then (I had leftover regular pea seeds to use). However, I'm a bit North of Virginia. We are right on the cusp between zones 7 and 6. I'm told that is why we have such a variety of trees and plants (and subsequently, many people moving to this area suffer from seasonal allergies who never did before).
Thanks for the tip about the clematis. I think that might be perfect for the south side of my screened in porch. I'd wanted something climbing, and wisteria seemed so romantic, but it can be terribly invasive.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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Okay, bumping this thread because it is definitely seed ordering season!!
I poured through the Seed Savers Exchange Catalog yesterday, and it is DELIGHTFUL!
I do think I'd like to focus on heirloom varieties so I can save my seed.
Dh got a modest raise with a recent promotion, and we'd been contemplating what to do with it (savings, put it all towards the mortgage, etc...), and it occurred to us that putting it towards our garden plans this year would be a sound investment. So, perhaps we will go ahead with our larger scale plans including the fence. We'll see. I do like the mantra "buy once and buy right" but I don't want to use it as an excuse to be imprudent
I also wanted to share this LOVELY potager site/web journal The Gardener's Eden. So much eye candy!!
And, QUESTION:
Does anyone have a preferred journal or notebook system you use for your garden? Is there something printable somewhere?
I have some surplus linen stationery from dh's work that would make nice journal pages on the back side (I like the feel of writing on linen), and I thought that perhaps loose leaf in a clip board for active use that can be transferred to a notebook for record keeping might work for me.
I had also thought that there are so many EXCELLENT resources online, I might start a notebook of printing out the ones I want to use and putting them in protector sheets. I also need to create a gardening calendar for all the things I want to do, not just in the potager but to maintain our property. I'm really not experienced enough AT ALL to remember when to prune things, plant things, etc... And I always seem to come across doing things too late.
For instance, I have ALWAYS wanted to force bulbs, and I NEVER remember until too late in the season for it to be practical It seems like Martha Stewart or someone should have a ready made calendar with all those things on it, but I've yet to come across it, probably because those things are so different for different zones and such.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JodieLyn
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Lindsay would the Farmer's Almanac have those things? It's been ages since I've looked through one so I'm not sure but may be closest to what you're asking.
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CrunchyMom
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I'm not sure an Almanac is exactly what I want. I'm sure it has all the information I need, but I want a format similar to this Greenfinger Guide Calendar where I can See the things I should be doing at a glance. Unfortunately, that one is for the UK. I think I will just have to have a calendar at a glance that gives lines for each month and write in the things I want to remember for each month as I come across it.
I found this amazing Garden Scribe planner, but I don't think I can justify that kind of money for one, especially since I would still need to add some things it doesn't have for what I want.
I do have one idea I'm excited about. It occurred to me that I could take a sheet protector page and cut a slit in one side, taping the bottom of the top half down creating two pockets. Then, I can make my information page for the plant the size of the top pocket and slip the seed packet into the bottom pocket, paperclipping it to the plastic if necessary.
Come to think of it, I suppose I could just leave the pages whole and drop the seed packet down in the whole plastic protector...hmmm...maybe I'm making it too complicated. Either way, I think it would be nice to keep them together that way, especially for the less bulky seeds.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JodieLyn
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I think the Old Farmer's Almanac does have that sort of format.. just also more stuff.. you might see what they have on the website.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
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4Real Forums : Our Lady's Loom, Larder, and Laundry
Topic: Potager Plans
