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LLMom
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Before I got married we took Creighton method NFP classes. NO mention of needing grave reasons to use it; it was presented as the churches answer to birth control. I know several other couples who were taught STM, Billings and Creighton and were also never told about needing serious reasons. I don't think this is being stressed enough. And maybe one reason why so many Catholics use articificial birth control is because they can't see the difference because the church is not presenting things the right way.
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LisaR
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I teach CCL Sympto Thermal NFP. I agree with the posts about how at least 90% are sterilized and or contracepting. I do not think NFP is a band aid approach at all. It is NEVER promoted that all Catholics or Engaged Catholics or whatever group we are trying to reach USE NFP. The Church teaches that it is a fundamental right and a natural good to know about how and for what purpose we are created. God could have made us "in the dark" so to speak about our fertility. heck, he could have made angels deliver babies to our doorsteps if He wanted.  We need to make sure in our language that we are not "knocking" the knowledge of our fertility. (which has actually helped many, many women detect serious problems or conceive) I think it is beautiful haow God created us in His image. Our teaching of NFP includes so much Theology of the Body and also vital Breastfeeding info. (which sadly is not automatically "handed down" information in our culture anymore). So, the idea behind teaching or reaching ALL engaged couples is never to say they have to USE the info, but the Church has an obligation to teach this truth, and we know they are not getting it from their parents or their Catholic schools or CCD!!
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LisaR
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2 quick ps's- it is equally painful as an NFP instructor to have people assume and make snide comments about our "perfectly planned" family. (they are all abt 3 years apart) I then struggle with wanting to explain to everyone that we tried so hard to concieve for quite a few of our children, lost twins multiple times, and endured quite a few hardships and miracles along the way. People hold us up as the "poster couple" for NFP but it is not always as it seems.
I also, as an NFP instructor, want to point out that many of us who teach to not "use" NFP. that is- in the 14 years of my marriage- I have I think 8 charts, maybe- and those were all but one "trying to concieve" charts. Many of us do not ever chart!
Also, CCL recently rewrote ALL of their notes and the classes are being totally revamped. I look forward to the new and hopefully improved in the Fall and hopefully we can share about it here.
If you want a real eye openner- volunteer for your Diocese or Parish to work with engaged couples. If we all work together to try to reach these couples, maybe a positive change can occur!
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Lisa
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Elizabeth
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LisaR wrote:
If you want a real eye openner- volunteer for your Diocese or Parish to work with engaged couples. If we all work together to try to reach these couples, maybe a positive change can occur! |
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We did this for the first ten years we were married, in a campus ministry setting, so there were lots of and lots of weddings. It was an eye opener. The one thing I found most amazing was how little guidance we got from the pastor or the diocese regarding what to cover in those sessions (though that is the same place I first ran across Msgr. Burke. It was pamphlets, not CH, but still there were great nuggests there). We're beginning to design the pre-Cana at our current parish, with a pastor who is much more hands on and much more opinionated (in a positive way). It will be interesting to see the difference because the Church very much has official positions on marriage and they are so rarely taught to couples getting married.I hae a lot of hope for the program that will be put together.
LisaR wrote:
| 2 quick ps's- it is equally painful as an NFP instructor to have people assume and make snide comments about our "perfectly planned" family. |
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I hope you weren't referring to me. I'm not making observations based upon assumptions. I'm making that particular observation based on discussions with NFP teachers and promoters who say how well planned their families are in order to lend credibility to the method they teach. I think they do a disservice there.
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LisaR
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I think many parishes and Diocese have come a long way in the past 5-8 years or so, giving more specific guidelines and having more of a "game plan" as to how to address these 94%-87% (depending on stat) co-habing engaged couples that really need a 101 course on all things Catholic. Sometimes some of the "older" witness couples who have helped with programs for even decades are offended that dh asks to see their outlines or even gives them outlines to follow. It is necessary though! I'd love to hear what your parish program will include.
No, not at all! People online have NEVER made any offensive comments toward my family size, spacing, etc. It has all happened in person, and sadly, usually with my kids on hand as well. I am sure I am unusually sensitive to this. I want to "prove" myself to the open to large family groups that I really am one of them!- and also witness while teaching NFP that there are no guarantees....I would have been strong armed into a hyterectomy long ago had it not been for my firm background in NFP and alot of self-diagnosis
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dh Tim '92
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Dawnie
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I wish that Msgr. Burke's book would accompany the CCL book. |
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The course already costs $75, so I doubt we'll be seeing any additional books in the course kit w/o a price hike, BUT DH and I do specifically reccommend Msgr. Burke's book as additional reading for our students.
Elizabeth wrote:
| Correct me if I'm wrong: is CCL promoting teachers like that? Are they actively encouraging teaching NFP as a privation? It doesn't seem like it. |
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Yes, CCL DOES promote teachers like us. We went through training which included 2 intensive weekend workshops and a lot of reading and chart interpretation. The class format is stadardized. CCL provides us with slides and teaching notes, which is a script that goes with the slides. All the theology is in the slides and the teaching notes. Teaching couples are free to paraphrase, instead of reading the notes verbatim, but we are supposed to be including everything in the teaching notes, either in our own words or the way it's written out. I suppose that a teaching couple could take some slides out and leave out the theology, but CCL's stance is that the theology SHOULD be taught w/ NFP. If CCL Central found out about a couple doing something like that, I imagine they would be in trouble.
Are they actively promoting teaching NFP as a privation? I've never had NFP explained to me that way before I read Msgr. Burke's book. CCL doesn't use the word "privation," but they do encourage generosity in having children and they discourage using NFP for selfish reasons. I can see why it would seem that they aren't promoting teaching NFP as a privation, especially if you just scan the homepage of their webpage. You know, I agree that the message they send out could be clearer, but it's difficult to put that into a catchy slogan. Any ideas?
Dawn
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Christine
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Thank you for everyone's witness to life. I really feel like my husband is under attack right now. People at work have not been congratulatory about this pregnancy. Yesterday, he was fielding questions like, "Don't you know where they come from?" and "What are you doing to your poor wife?" To the first he answered, "Umm, outer space?" and to the second he answered, "It's not involuntary."
When he got home last night, his mom called (I thought she had finally seen the light, as there were no negative remarks when I told her I was expecting. Previously, she had told me to stop having children after our second, third, and fourth children were born) and spent an hour on the phone discussing the prudence of having more children. Her reasoning was that if something happened to my health, the children would have no one to take care of them, and we couldn't possibly afford to put all the children through college. I told my husband, "If everyone lived in the negative future, then no one would have children. As Catholics, we are supposed to trust in God and live in the present, not in the land of what if." Ironically, I believe my mother-in-law would be a lot happier if she had had more children. Instead, she laments the fact that my husband is the only one who speaks with her regularly and she seems lonely.
I don't mean to gripe, but I am so thankful to those who have shared their openness to life, both on this forum and in real life. I have received positive responses from most other family members, the priest for whom I volunteer, members of our homeschool group, and my ob, but those who are negative are so vocal and really seem focused on trying to take our joy away. My mother-in-law seems bent on trying to control our family size. Sorry, for blabbering.
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Elizabeth
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 Christine! I've no advice except to pray for her. My dh didn't tell his mother about this baby until I was over 18 weeks pregnant and she has yet to say anything to me about the baby at all.
In her opinion, the first was too soon after we were married, the second was too soon after cancer, and everyone after that was too many (what am I doing to her poor son???  ). She's not a very happy lady.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Alcat
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Christine,
I'm soooo sorry! I understand! We are pregnant with #5 and people think were nuts! Thankfully dh comes from a family of 6 kids and his mother loves having more and more grandchildren
I was so depressed about telling my family because they would be upset and possibly angry  So, I read Kimberly Hann's "Life Giving Love"- what a pep talk! It reminded me that those who are closed to life are the crazy ones.
With that understanding I had greater confidence to smile at the nay-sayers and tell them how sad I was that they couldn't share our joy  I think it is time that people understand that their negitive comments are sad (not to mention rude), and hurtful- of course said with great charity 
Sorry if I'm sounding a bit combative but my hormones have shifed again and I feel like I'm looking for a fight 
God Bless,
Alison
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Dawnie
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Alcat wrote:
I think it is time that people understand that their negitive comments are sad (not to mention rude), and hurtful- of course said with great charity
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This is so true. Why is it that, in our American society, a woman's "birth control" decisions are her own private business, but a couple's decision to allow God to bless them with children is everyone's business?
Christine, Elizabeth, and everyone else here who is expecting a baby, here's a big hug and a huge CONGRATULATIONS!!! I'm so excited for you! God has given you an incredible gift (as I'm sure you already know!).
Dawn
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Christine
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Thank you for the words of wisdom, book recommendation, and advice to pray for my mother-in-law. I really appreciate everyone's understanding and encouragement. Elizabeth, I am sorry that you have had to deal with a similar reaction. Elizabeth and Alison, I will remember both of you in my prayers (that family members are more accepting of the new life within each of you), when I pray for my mother-in-law.
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StephanieA
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encouragement. Elizabeth, I am sorry that you have had to deal with a similar reaction. Elizabeth and Alison, I will remember both of you in my prayers (that family
Isn't a sad thing not to get support from our families, especially Catholic families?
I have had the same problem with my in-laws. My brother-in-law thinks we are terribly irresponsible, overpopulating the earth with all these "extra" kids. My sister-in-law has literally said to my face, "You are stupid!" (Now, what does one say after a comment like that for pete sakes? I just took a sip of my tea and quickly changed the subject. Otherwise, a wise-crack comment may have eminated from my mouth that I would have regretted later. I can get feisty sometimes.) My father-in-law gave my husband the talk about not being able to afford all these kids.
(Now, what does a guy say to that? "Oh gosh, Dad, I'm loaded! That's why our kids go to private schools, and I wear new namebrand clothes. Gee!)
My father-in-law passed away last year, so my mother-in-law visits us more often now. She noticed that I was sick, so I told her that we were expecting. She said she would pray for me. What a sweet comment! Then she asked if she should tell dh's siblings. I am just not up for the comments right now, so I asked her to please wait.
It is difficult, but I will say it has gotten easier over the years. I think it is the hardest after your 4th or 5th child. After the 6th or 7th, naysayers have just about given up on reforming or discouraging you. Plus, by that time, you realize that soon the 'ol biological clock won't allow many more children, and you get to the point that you really could care less about what people think or say.
I just wish there was more support for our dear husbands. It has got to be especially difficult coming from their side of the family.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Lisbet
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Michelle wrote
Quote:
And why this constant promoting of the idea that ALL couples should use NFP? I haven't be able to find that anywhere in Church teaching. In fact I am finding as we discuss this more that a lot of couples simply aren't using NFP because of all the reasons we have talked about here but they feel guilty about it because they gotten the message that they really should be. There's something wrong with that.
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This is exactly how we have felt through most of our marriage. We've certainly had those 'worldly' reasons to postpone a pregnancy, but God has never called us to do so. And sadly, no offense to anyone here, it's in the CCL circles around here that we've been called "irresponsible" Funny thing though, the biggest hang up for these folks seems to be our age and the whole 'idea' that we could have 16 or so children. I discontinued our subscription to Family Foundations for the same reasons Stephanie mentioned. I got so discouraged from reading on one page the blessings of children, then turning to the next to read all the very exact and scientific ways of avoiding those very blessings. Also, add to that the fact that if you are breastfeeding but not experiencing prolonged periods of infertility, then you must be doing something wrong. (this is very much implied in everything I have ever read from CCL) I got so sick and tired of constantly analyzing what I was doing wrong in my nursing relationships, and finally realized that ultimatly, breastfeeding is for nurishing and comforting my babies and toddlers, not for birth control. So long as my babies are thriving, we are enjoying nursing, sharing between the toddler and baby, I no longer could give a fig whether or not it supressed my ovulation. I just chalk it up to God's beautiful plan for me :)
I'm sorry to sound so negative, but truely my experience with CCL has not been positive, actually, it's been almost harmful on me and my husband.
I have many of Dr. Ratner's little Child and Family booklets. They are SO uplifting. If anyone is interested I would be happy to send some out. A friend is his neice. Small world!
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LisaR
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As A CCL instructor for almost 10 years, I never have thought that CCL or ANY NFP provider can be all things to all couples, anymore than I have expected all Catholic families to be called to have as many babies as physically possible. The great thing is- I do not have to worry about either- the Church has made it clear that responsible parenthood is a decision between the couple and God cooperating together.
I will apologize on behalf of any CCL member who has said you were irresponsible. Please know that CCL Central (www.ccli.org) would really appreciate being made aware of these persons. They are not representing the mission of CCL.
What IS the mission of CCL? Maybe the reason you do not care for their materials is because you do not need their services. However, as a teacher who has taught primarily contracepting engaged couples, I have seen the great fruit that occurs from their reading the materials.
I'm teaching 14 engaged couples today- 12 living together, most on the pill and trying to come off- yeah! and one married couple with 6 young children who has a serious medical problem and is seeking info on postponing while they get medication and chemo under control.
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dh Tim '92
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Elizabeth
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It occurs to me that perhaps CCL's mission is to promote NFP. That is, they want to reach those couples who are contracepting and living in sin and bring them news of a better way. But those of us with faithful Catholic marriages and ever-growing families and a sense that there is a "fullness" beyond merely not using ABC are looking to CCL to be something they are not. We are looking to them to support a lifestyle--a mission--that isn't their mission. Maybe what we need to do is pray for them and encourage them in what they do do: introduce the idea of going against the cultural norm and eschewing artificial birth control. After that, if we are to discover and grow into a lifestyle of openness, perhaps there are other venues for that kind of support and education.
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LisaR
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The most recent issue of "Family Foundations" (CCL's bi monthly magazine) had a beautiful photo of a family with 10 kids, (may have been 9 or 11- I loan my copies out so fast I don't remember!) and I skimmed the article talking about how great it was to have large families and babies in your 40's. Very uplifting, IMHO. But, is that the best cover for these contracepting couples? CCL will probably get complaints from the other end of the spectrum.
The NFP class we teach is all couples who want to be there- it is not a marriage requirement. Couples take a day long Theology of the Body course, wihich includes studies of all of the Church Documents, Encyclicals, and CCC on sexuality and it's meaning within marriage. Couples can then choose to take the full NFP course from various providers. So, there are couples who have decided from Day 1 to be providentialists, but it IS exciting to see the light bulb start to go off for the majority of contracepting engaged couples- they want to know more!
They sign up for NFP because they are hungry for the truth- fertility awareness and how we are made in the Image of God. It is exciting!
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Lisa
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StephanieA
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anymore than I have expected all Catholic families to be called to have as many babies as physically possible. The great thing is- I do not have to worry about either- the Church has made it clear that responsible parenthood is a decision between the couple and God cooperating together.
Yes, if the couple has an informed conscience.
I recently read a pretty good book about a Catholic family with 10 boys....except for the 2nd to last chapter. Both parents were instructed by Jesuit professors at their college about the concept of "following your conscience" and Humane Vitae. So during their engagement, the couple read Humane Vitae and decided that they were called not to use contraception. However, they quickly pointed out that it isn't the right decision for everyone, and that they make this quite clear in the marriage prep classes that they teach for their diocese. Basically they were taught that people are free to choose to accept or reject Church teachings, letting their conscience dictate.
Freedom is the choice between two goods. Freedom is never choosing between two evils or an evil and a good.
What freedom would you feel if someone said, "You have the freedom to choose poision or a chocolate bar?" Freedom would be to choose from a chocolate bar or ice cream.
Likewise, God gave us a conscience to help us discern between 2 goods. We can do this responsibly only through an informed conscience. If NFP doesn't stress the reasons for the use of NFP, couples won't have an truly informed conscience.
Responsible parenthood is such a tough term. Responsible to whom? Ourselves? The family? God? The environment? Music lessons? College costs? Many of my days I can't say I feel responsible. There is always something I wish I could give my 7 kids and here I am having another one.
Our natural human selfishness (and I mean me here!) will construe so much into this. That is again the purpose of an informed conscience. When the Church says these are the only reasons to practice NFP, I can get aggravated and balk (and I have done this at different time in our our marriage- although I really know better), but the real truth is the truth. The Church in her wisdom knows what she is doing.
The decision to have children is cooperation between God and the couple, with the couple accepting God's will for them. We aren't on equal terms here. We aren't as wise as God. We are his creatures. As difficult as this is, young couples need to hear this somewhere! We do need to accept them where they are as Christ did. However we need to give them the whole truth also, even if this isn't acceptable to them at this time.
I applaud CCL for the article on the large family. Children are blessings, everyone of them....not just the first 2 or 3. This is a tough teaching in our materialistic age, but it is the truth.
I also applaud everyone of you who strive to teach the truth through NFP. It has to be a very difficult endeavor. You are soldiers on the battlefront of life.
As missionaries often did, you should have a specific Carmelite praying for you go forth to teach. As St. Therese once said, "Missionary priests succeed because someone was praying for them."
Blessings,
Stephanie
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LisaR
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I know the book, I had it and threw it away after reading that same chapter! It was published in the '90's and dh did a little digging. Let's just say that they are no longer volunteering in that capacity anymore.
The couples in our Diocese get 8 hours of the whole truth, but our conservative former Bishop and current Bishop did not want to mandate couples "only" take NFP, they thought that the framework and catechesis was more important in the long run than a "method only" approach.
We are now seeing the fruit of this- as many many couples are writing and calling dh with deeper questions and life changing testimony- and many go on to sign up for NFP classes on their own. (not only to postpone- about 40% are now taking to achieve!)
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
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Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Elizabeth
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I know the book too and had some opportunity for personal correspondence with the author. The "new Jesuit" influence is certainly evident on more than just that issue.
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teachingmom
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I thought this news might be of interest to those following this thread. There is a new Vatican document on "Family and Human Procreation". I'll be interested to read it.
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