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Dawnie
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SaraP wrote:
What I do think comes out in your posts that needs serious attention from people who teach and promote NFP is that so many of you felt like you SHOULD use NFP even if you didn't have a reason to. When I speak to marriage prep groups I always tell them that NFP is nothing more than knowledge and whether they choose to use that knowledge to achieve pregnancy, avoid pregnancy or to ignore it all together is completely between each couple and God. Is that not the 'party line'? |
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Awesome post, Sara! Thank you for re-iterating what I was trying to say. I wasn't sure if I was making myself clear, but apparantly you understood! 
DH and I teach with CCL, and the 'party line' you quote is the same there, BUT, among other NFP users, there is sometimes the mentality that it's 'irresponsible' not to 'plan' your family meticulously. There seems to be a bit of finger-wagging at couples who admit to a surprise pregnancy, especially the unplanned-but-no-surprise kind (otherwise known as a user failure!). I don't think this is right. DH and I have been discussing this (by the way this thread has been a GREAT opportunity for deep discussion between DH and I) and he observed that NFP is often compared to contraception. Many discussions frame the issue as "NFP vs. contraception." Perhaps the feeling that everyone SHOULD use NFP, even if they don't have a serious reason, is coming more from our American culture than from those who are teaching it. Perhaps we should be trying to make the issue "faithfullness vs. contraception."
I saw a woman in church the other day who had a new baby, and when I went up to admire her baby and congratulate her, she said apologetically, "Well, he was a surprise. We weren't really planning on having another." I didn't really know what to say, other than, "Well, babies are the best kind of surprise!" But her apparant shame at getting pregnant was surprising and disturbing to me. Why should she be ashamed? She's a married woman! She did nothing wrong by having relations with her husband. Personally, I never volunteer whether a pregnancy was 'planned' or not. That's no one else's business! If anyone asks, I say that our babies were planned, b/c DH and I know what causes babies, and we did it on purpose. (I keep the last part to myself!) We may not have planned out every pregnancy months in advance, but when we've had relations during the fertile time, it was with the knowledge that we could get pregnant and that was okay with us.
Dawn
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SaraP
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Dawnie wrote:
| DH and I teach with CCL, and the 'party line' you quote is the same there, BUT, among other NFP users, there is sometimes the mentality that it's 'irresponsible' not to 'plan' your family meticulously. There seems to be a bit of finger-wagging at couples who admit to a surprise pregnancy, especially the unplanned-but-no-surprise kind (otherwise known as a user failure!). I don't think this is right. |
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Ok, yes, THAT I do know about . . . sigh . . . but I think it represents one of the in-between stages of going from contraceptive use (or at least a contraceptive mentality) to acceptance of the fullness of the Church's teachings on family planning. Not exactly excuseable, but sort of understandable when you consider where most couples start out.
Dawnie wrote:
| DH and I have been discussing this (by the way this thread has been a GREAT opportunity for deep discussion between DH and I) and he observed that NFP is often compared to contraception. Many discussions frame the issue as "NFP vs. contraception." Perhaps the feeling that everyone SHOULD use NFP, even if they don't have a serious reason, is coming more from our American culture than from those who are teaching it. Perhaps we should be trying to make the issue "faithfullness vs. contraception." |
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I agree with your DH and will add that the whole 'NFP is good for marriages' was originally a positive way of saying that contraception is BAD for marriages and that couples who don't use contraception have much happier, healthier relationships. Unfortunately the implication has become that NFP itself is ultimately responsible for this and that isn't true. Charting signs of fertility and deciding together whether or not to use potentially fertile times CAN be good, particularly for a couple who is used to contraception, but the real GOOD is simply remaining in a state of grace and therefore receptive to the special graces God provides to all married couples.
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MicheleQ
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I understand that many couples are using contraception and so teaching them NFP is a step in the right direction but I also can't help but point out that it's really only a band-aid on the bigger problem of people not being properly taught in the first place. It's works somewhat but surely not nearly as well as addressing the problem head on could. Yeah sure, easy for me to say as I'm not a priest or bishop who has to deal with the fallout. . .but still I wonder. The fact is that many people don't want to hear the message and offering NFP as a substitute for contraception softens the blow but it's still depriving couples of the fullness of God's plan. I think it IS a valid stepping stone but too often it seems to be more of a stopping point.
And why this constant promoting of the idea that ALL couples should use NFP? I haven't be able to find that anywhere in Church teaching. In fact I am finding as we discuss this more that a lot of couples simply aren't using NFP because of all the reasons we have talked about here but they feel guilty about it because they gotten the message that they really should be. There's something wrong with that.
When I gave my talk to RCIA a few months ago I asked my pastor for feedback the following week. He wasn't at my talk but the following week's RCIA (which I didn't attend) was apparently spent with him answering questions and the one thing he said to me was that he thought I didn't perhaps present the Church's teaching on responsible parenthood clearly enough.
Of course I think I did because what I understand (from reading and researching Church documents firsthand) is that the first place of responsible parenthood is generosity to life and then limitation by abstinence if necessary but only for grave or serious reason - and while I know there is purposefully no list of what that means, since it can be different for different couples, I still think pastors need to counsel on the issue better and maybe even give some examples so that people can get a better understanding of it.
I'm getting a copy of Covenanted Happiness for my pastor. He's a great guy who seeks the truth and he's been mislead just like a lot of us have.
Oh and thanks Dawnie and Sara for the NFP teachers perspective - sounds to me like you are right on!
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cvbmom
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Dawnie wrote:
| Personally, I never volunteer whether a pregnancy was 'planned' or not. That's no one else's business! If anyone asks, I say that our babies were planned, b/c DH and I know what causes babies, and we did it on purpose. (I keep the last part to myself!) We may not have planned out every pregnancy months in advance, but when we've had relations during the fertile time, it was with the knowledge that we could get pregnant and that was okay with us. |
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Well said. I have many relativess who talk about how their children were unplanned and unwanted. It never ceases to amaze me that not only do people feel this way (unwanted children) but that they'd share it with others and worse yet, in front of their children!!! That certainly doesn't help a child's sense of self worth. No wonder some children have trouble with their faith. Try telling a kid whose parents say that they were a mistake that God loves them and that they are beautifully and wonderfully made by God. It just doesn't compute. Sad.
Are our children planned? Not in the sense that we sat down and said, "Let's have a baby this month." But definitely in the sense that God made them and gave them to us. It is being open to God and life at all times. No set plans, no charting fertility, just living the married life that God planned for us.
My husband, thank God, is open to life too. I think I have been open to life because my mom had trouble conceiving...she wanted a dozen children but had three (that's another story). Desire for children is simply part of me, I grew up praying for siblings now I am blessed with many children of my own. It's been 9 years of praying and growing for both my husband and me, but we are open to life and loving the many gifts we have received. He sometimes worries about providing, but really knows that it is all in God's hands, not his. I am truly blessed. And all of this is what I have to remember when people rudely comment about or question my large family. God has blessed me and it is sad that others cannot understand the awesomeness of this blessing!
Christine
wife of 9 years to dh with 5 blessings age 7 down to 4 mo.
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MicheleQ
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I posted a new topic but then thought maybe I should post here too for those who are getting updates by e-mail. I just found out (thanks to Tami) that Covenanted Happiness is available free online at: http://www.cormacburke.or.ke/book/Covenanted_Happiness
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fsuadamson
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Oh my goodness my head is spinning  It's like both sides Dawnie and Sara's (coming from the NFP instructor) are saying things that are so true to my life! Then Melissa and all the ladies that have been blessed with living these truths that Mrsg. Curmic speaks of in letting God 'plan' their families, are so speaking to my heart now! I can't stop thinking about these conversations and for now the strong points being made in both books.
I don't want to ramble but it helps me to sort out where I am. As for my husband he's not there yet but I will pray for St. Joseph's intercessions and offer Masses!! With his personality and job I am not sure he will make the time to join or read information from the websites offered. I am hoping he will read KH's book but time will tell.
Dawnie wrote:
| . . . but I think it represents one of the in-between stages of going from contraceptive use (or at least a contraceptive mentality) to acceptance of the fullness of the Church's teachings on family planning. Not exactly excuseable, but sort of understandable when you consider where most couples start out. |
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So true! Prior to both of us converting to the Catholic faith we did contracept in our marriage. I have to agree 100% that NFP was one of the best choices at the time. I truly believe it allowed the Holy Spirit to open my heart to the truth. But even with that and going through Familia I, the truth was never so clear or maybe I just could not hear it then, like Msgr. Curmic, Kimberly H. and this forum are teaching / stating.
SaraP wrote:
| [quote=Dawnie]DH and I teach with CCL, and the 'party line' you quote is the same there, BUT, among other NFP users, there is sometimes the mentality that it's 'irresponsible' not to 'plan' your family meticulously. There seems to be a bit of finger-wagging at couples who admit to a surprise pregnancy, especially the unplanned-but-no-surprise kind (otherwise known as a user failure!). I don't think this is right. |
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Yes, this is so true and to the lady that mentioned an NFP flyer was placed on her windshield, I would have to deeply apologize to all of you, for this is where my mindset has been up until very recently. On one hand if it wasn't for NFP I would probably never have been open to these conversations but on the other hand I was fed that NFP was the 'required and only way to go for responsible parenthood'. To be open and have as many children as your body could would be a sure sign of irresponsibility. -- sigh!
I was always under the impression that our fertility was a gift and with all of God's gifts we should be good stewards but.. if I am understand correctly to be open to God's plan for our family is not a stewardship, like our finances, or talents?!  Kimberly wrote a long chapter about children are not commodities they are gifts. I am still trying to grasp the depth of this for I still struggle with the whole 'grave reason / responsible parenthood' implants...
I have spent many confessions crying to the priest that the problem wasn't that I was not 'open to life' I was really struggling with the "idea" of another child, not with the actual child. Unfortunately not one of the priests were able to counsel or direct me to the truths as so clearly as these mediums have.
After several days of pondering I would love to hear how those that have come to peace and fully trust God's plan for your family.... how do you see stewardship of health? Does Covenant Happiness speak about this? Let me give examples: right now I know two ladies, who are pregnant with their 7th & 8th and one has developed severe gestational diabetes (started with the 6th and got worse with each pregnancy afterwards). According to the secular doctors it has gotten to the point of life threatening. The other mom has a heart condition that developed through multiple pregnancies and is also life threatening for the mom... Please, please understand I mean no insult I just need to train my consience in the truths. Truths that you ladies live! But should our health be something we should consider as a 'grave reason'? After all our bodies are "temples for the Holy Spirit". In both these examples I don't see how these ladies are caring for their bodies? From an ignorant stand point on my behalf I would look at this as irresponsible parenthood  . Is it that 'grave reasons' need to be defined in black and white? Are they?
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Dawnie
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MicheleQ wrote:
| I understand that many couples are using contraception and so teaching them NFP is a step in the right direction but I also can't help but point out that it's really only a band-aid on the bigger problem of people not being properly taught in the first place. |
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I agree. When we talk about NFP and compare it to contraception, the implied message is that you should be using something to plan your family. It's a false dichotomy. In the CCL class, we do present the fullness of the Church's teaching. We tell our students that children are a blessing and encourage engaged couples not to postpone pregnancy unneccesarily. We encourage them to be generous and, if they have a serious reason to avoid pregnancy, to use NFP and only NFP. I don't know if you've ever seen CCL's book on NFP, but there is a big section on theology in it. When I gave a witness talk on NFP, I started my talk by pointing out that I believed that being faithful to the Church's teaching is what enhances my marriage, not NFP by itself. I can only speak for myself, of course. I don't know whether the other methods of NFP present theology along with NFP instruction or not. And I don't know what pre-Cana instruction is like either. What is happening in your diocese?
How do we make sure that people are taught properly in the first place? I think we would do well as NFP teachers to emphasize more that the ordinary call of God to married couples is to have children. I also think we would do well to be more honest about what using NFP is really like--that it's a sacrifice, not a bed of roses. (But, a sacrifice, when it's neccessary and when it's carried out in love canbring a couple closer together.) As parents, I think we need to be sure we are teaching our children to be chaste (not just abstinate) before marriage. We plan to encourage our daughters to delay dating until they are actually ready to marry, to avoid unneccessary temptation. Also, I think we need to pray, pray, pray for our priests and bishops. This is probably the most important thing we can do to help them.
Dawn
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Elizabeth
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Dawn, I think you've hit on some good points and I'm glad to see that you approach the class from that perspective. My experience with NFP instruction is that there tends to be great pride in "nailing" the science and the evidence of having nailed it is "perfectly planned" families. .
I wish that Msgr. Burke's book would accompany the CCL book. I have found the CCL book to read as if the default is prevention. Most of the books is written from the perspective of trying to prevent conception. When you read the book as someone looking for help conceiving, you find it woefully lacking and you find the language offensive in places. To me, this misrepresents the theology of the Church. We should look at preventing conception with great sorrow; it certainly should not be the norm. So, if we begin with that book as our "spine," then we are leaving much up to the teaching couples. Some will approach the subject as you do but others will approach it the way so many of us have seen: NFP is to be practiced all the time as a marriage enhancer and if you are good enough at it, you can pretty much plan when and how many children you will have. That's a bill of goods that leaves couple ill prepared for the realities of life as a married couple.
If we teach that NFP is just knowledge and that is is up to the couple and God to determine whether to use it to achieve pregnancy, avoid pregnancy or to ignore it altogether, we potentially have NFP teachers teaching that there are three equally valid options. No one ever presented to us God's plan for large families. No one ever encouraged us to reserve NFP for grave or serious reasons. They are not three equal options. One is a privation and needs to be called such. I know NFP teachers who stress that couples should not marry young ( I disagree--but that's another thread entirely) and that they should get to know each other as spouses before conceiving. That is a complete misrepresentation of Church teaching. Whether they choose to use NFP should boil down to one thing: Is there a grave or serious reason to use it? Youth is probably not a grave or serious reason. Neither is "newlywed status." We can akcnoweldge that we are beginning with poorly catechized couples who are already living together and contracepting. Are those teachers spending equal time enlightening these poorly catechized couples about authentic Catholic teaching and the blessing of openness? Are they encouraging large families? Or are they just outlining a way to live the same way every contracepting couple lives without "technically" breaking the rules. We do those couples a grave disservice if all they learn is how to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality.
I wish I had had an NFP teacher like Dawn and I wish there were more of them available everywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong: is CCL promoting teachers like that? Are they actively encouraging teaching NFP as a privation? It doesn't seem like it.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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StephanieA
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I wish that Msgr. Burke's book would accompany the CCL book. (Elizabeth's quote)
This would be an absolutely wonderful idea!
Are they actively encouraging teaching NFP as a privation? It doesn't seem like it. (Elizabeth's quote)
I would agree to this. It doesn't seem most CCL or NFP books and instructors bring out the Church's stance well enough. I subscribed to CCL's magazine for many years. While it had some wonderful articles, I finally was put off by the general tone of perfect planning of our family, not to the overall submission to God's will.
Which brings me to a my point. I think overall the problem is a lack of the perception that children ARE true blessings from God. This may be an easy statement to say, but living it is much harder in our materialist society. We have to be willing to give up our time and resources and readjust our goals.
As an older teen through my 20's, I attending many La Leche League International Conferences. I meet Dr. Ratner, a Jewish-convent to Catholicism/medical doctor/philosopher that literally gave me more education than my college degree (and at a cheaper cost).
I wish he had written scads of books, but he didn't. I have some of his audio tapes that I still listen to.
He said: "We live life forward, but we understand it backwards." Older people's greatest regret is that they didn't have another child."
At the LLL Conferences, he was not speaking to a Catholic audience (although I have his tapes when he did speak to CCL. I'll get to that). He empasized that breastfeeding will space children naturally and that in the midst of raising our young children, we will be overwhelmed. This WILL pass. Our greatest joy in life (barring our relationship with God) will be to see our children's children, especially gathered around us as we die.
After saying no more children to my mother..ummmm 7 times or so, my father recently said, "My greatest consolation in having 9 children is that I know I will have many prayers said for me at my death." This statement took me aback at first, but struck me profoundly as I thought of it.
Back to Dr. Ratner and his greatest regret statement...
I would like to give 2 examples that what he says is absolutely true, but couples do not understand. My aunt and uncle worked hard and were financially blessed throughout their marriage, but they insisted that one child was all they wanted. Several years ago, we met at a large family gathering after having our 4th child. My husband reported to me afterwards that Uncle Don pulled him aside and told him, "You know, I wish I would have had 4 children." I told dh that he must have been mistaken, that he didn't know who Uncle Don was. (I could have NEVER imagined my uncle saying this. He was always very vocal about his one child policy and a person who rather kept his emotions to himself). But dh wasn't mistaken.
My sister and brother-in-law firmly believed in population control and only replacing oneself. They had 2 children. Tragedically, their oldest was killed in a bicycle accident last year at the age of 18. We are all still "looking for Joey" when we get together. It still makes me sick thinking about it. But at the funeral while looking at Joey, my sister-in-law turned to her daughter and said, " Vanessa, have 5 kids. Don't even look back." Vanessa, steeped in the midset, said, "No way, Mom. Not 5 kids."
When Dr. Ratner spoke at the CCL conference, he readily acknowledged the validity of using NFP when absolutely necessary, but then he came on strongly about being pro-child. "Yes," he said,"the Church approves of NFP for the right reasons. But one can use NFP and ultimately you aren't open to children. You aren't pro-child. This attitude is not from God. Large families are a blessing. Let God plan your family. Ultimately you will have no regrets."
My grandparents were THE most pro-child people I know. They had one child, my mother, a blessing through adoption. They were always overjoyed to know that Mom was going to have another child. It was especially the highlight of my grandfather's life.
So, NFP or otherwise, we have to be pro-child...and really mean it. (And I say this slumped over this computer from severe morning sickness that lasts all day. Oh, if it was just a little easier :)on the stomach and head. We have to let mothers know that the toughest time for mothers physically is when they have 4-5 kids under the age of 8 or 10. Pre-teens and teens bring new challenges, but the work of watching all those little ones is dispersed. Help has arrived!
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Elizabeth
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Stephanie,
We must be on the same wavelength this morning. In the shower (where all great thoughts are thunk  ), I was thinking about how I explain our philosophy of openness in the abridged version at cookouts or pool parties (the strictly social version). I tell people how hard I prayed for the great gift of fertility all during cancer treatment. I tell them how delighted I was when that pregnancy test turned positive seven months after treatment. It was like unwrapping the most beautiful present in the world. How could we ever look at that gift again and push it back in God's hands? "No thank, you, it was nice the last time, but I don't want your present any more. I don't want to know what's inside the box, what treasure you chose especially for me. It's too much effort to unwrap it, to risky to take the cover off the box."
It is downright painful to read the CCL book when you are trying to conceive and can't. It just feels like the whole book is written from the perspective of ducking and hiding so God can't find you with the gift. We can't truly acknowledge the pain of infertility experienced by faithful Catholic women if NFP is our default. We've missed the point. I can't tell you how many Catholic women who long for another baby are hurt by the attitude of the NFP moms in their church circles. (And it's amazing how many of them think you can't get pregnant because you are not good enough at reading signs and symptoms of fertility or you haven't yet perfected your charting techinque.) They think that conception is just a mattter of graphing and performing. If there's a problem, tweak your diet or buy darker blinds. There must be a way to control this under your power. NFP encourages to couples to feel that control. Truth is, fertility is in God's hands, whether the plan is for ten children or no children or a whole houseful of adopted children of every color under the sun. If those NFP moms were truly open to God's plan, if they really accepted that it is God alone who plans our families, I think they'd be more empathetic when faced with the infertility of a sister in Christ.
We do need to let young mothers know that everything is really fleeting, all the while acknowledging that what they are doing is REALLY HARD!. And we need to be there to offer both practical help and spiritual support. It's essential to be truly pro-life.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Bridget
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Stephanie, I'm so glad you brought up Dr. Ratner! His work is wonderful and he did leave a lot of writing that his daughter is trying to organize and get punlished. On NFP, vacinations... (His daughter is my sister's Godmother). Her own dh is an OB who has been fired from his position at hospitals for refusing to do abortions.
Dr. Ratner's conversion story is awesome! He was Jewish and immersed in the academic, intellectual world. He left behind a great Catholic, open to life legacy in his own children and grandchildren.
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SaraP
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Dawnie wrote:
| In the CCL class, we do present the fullness of the Church's teaching. We tell our students that children are a blessing and encourage engaged couples not to postpone pregnancy unneccesarily. We encourage them to be generous and, if they have a serious reason to avoid pregnancy, to use NFP and only NFP. I don't know if you've ever seen CCL's book on NFP, but there is a big section on theology in it. When I gave a witness talk on NFP, I started my talk by pointing out that I believed that being faithful to the Church's teaching is what enhances my marriage, not NFP by itself. I can only speak for myself, of course. I don't know whether the other methods of NFP present theology along with NFP instruction or not. And I don't know what pre-Cana instruction is like either. What is happening in your diocese? |
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This is the approach I take also. The first hour and half or so that I speak I talk only about the charatceristics of Christian marriage (including fruitfullness), the meaning of the marital act, the ends of marriage, that couples should only avoid pregnancy when there is a serious, unselfish reason to do so and that the world gives us a very distorted idea about the meaning of marriage and the importance of children. NFP is discussed only for the last half hour or so in a fairly general way and actual instruction is something they have to arrange with me at another time.
But when I talk to a room full of engaged couples who are used to contraception and all wrapped up in what the world tells us necessary and important, they ALL think that their reasons are serious and it's only a question of how they will do it. I do think often reconsider when they actually have to deny themselves and abstain when they would rather not and that is when I believe the Holy Spirit gets to work and couples begin to realize that NFP isn't just Catholic contracpetion, but sometimes this takes time and usually we aren't there to see it.
I don't know whether this is the norm for marriage prep in our diocese because the requirements are very vague and my sense is that family planning just isn't discussed at all most of the time. I also can't say that CCL or any of the other NFP teaching organizations actively promote teaching NFP as the exception rather than the rule, but I will say that most of the NFP teachers I know believe this and I would be very surprised if they taught otherwise.
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SaraP
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One more thought:
NFP is not an alternative to contraception.
NFP - periodic abstinence - is an alternative to TOTAL abstinence in situations where there is a serious reason to avoid pregnancy, but the couple does not need absolute certainty that they won't conceive.
Perhaps if it were presented this way the importance of not avoiding pregnancy routinely would be clearer. Hmm . . . gotta think on that one . . .
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: May 26 2006 at 9:16am | IP Logged
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Sara,
I wonder if the Billings approach is different in terms of training its teachers. That is, how are you taught to present? Do the Billings folks ensure that the instructors know the science and then leave presentation to the individuals or is there a set format for presentation?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JennGM
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| Posted: May 26 2006 at 9:57am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| It is downright painful to read the CCL book when you are trying to conceive and can't. It just feels like the whole book is written from the perspective of ducking and hiding so God can't find you with the gift. We can't truly acknowledge the pain of infertility experienced by faithful Catholic women if NFP is our default. We've missed the point. I can't tell you how many Catholic women who long for another baby are hurt by the attitude of the NFP moms in their church circles. (And it's amazing how many of them think you can't get pregnant because you are not good enough at reading signs and symptoms of fertility or you haven't yet perfected your charting techinque.) They think that conception is just a mattter of graphing and performing. If there's a problem, tweak your diet or buy darker blinds. There must be a way to control this under your power. NFP encourages to couples to feel that control. Truth is, fertility is in God's hands, whether the plan is for ten children or no children or a whole houseful of adopted children of every color under the sun. If those NFP moms were truly open to God's plan, if they really accepted that it is God alone who plans our families, I think they'd be more empathetic when faced with the infertility of a sister in Christ.[/url] |
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 Thank you, Elizabeth. Well said!
You mentioned also pairing "Covenanted Happiness" with NFP training. I agree. I approached one of the priests in our parish about including this book for part of marriage prep, and his response was quite disheartening. It's the defeatist attitude -- so many are unschooled in their faith, they are cohabitating, contracepting....this book would be way beyond their level and they wouldn't even read it. We are the exception to the rule.
I dislike that answer, mostly because I never believe that you go down to that person's level, but you bring them up higher. Inspire and uplift them. Give the book anyway and maybe with the grace of the sacrament they might pick it up and read it later. I don't have the answer. It's a tough apostolate preparing couples for marriage.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: May 26 2006 at 9:59am | IP Logged
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Jenn,
The first to ever hand me something written by Cromac Burke was your pastor  . Try again.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JennGM
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| Posted: May 26 2006 at 10:03am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
Jenn,
The first to ever hand me something written by Cromac Burke was your pastor . Try again. |
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I will. This was an associate pastor.
Unrelated, but the announcement came. Altar girls we will have in the fall.  I was at your parish this past Sunday for my nephew's First Communion. How nice...can't say I'm not entertaining thoughts of moving. My son would just LOVE to ring the consecration bells! He was mesmerized.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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SaraP
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| Posted: May 26 2006 at 10:11am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Do the Billings folks ensure that the instructors know the science and then leave presentation to the individuals or is there a set format for presentation? |
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There is not a set format for presentation of the Billings Method. We are only supposed to use approved materials (slides, booklets, etc.) to teach the sciencc of the method, but which ones we use and how we present them is left largely to the individual teachers. And I have always included additional readings on the theology of marriage and family and have never been told not to (and now I'm thinking I might need to figure out an inexpensive way to include copies of "Covenanted Happiness").
Teachers are trained through a 4 day workshop or a series of correspondence assignments and then 6 months to a year of teaching under the supervision of an experienced teacher, but most of the training is focussed on the science and not theology or morality unless the supervising teacher makes a point to discuss it (which mine didn't, but I do).
Very different from CCL and I'm not really sure which is a better system, but certainly neither one is perfect.
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Bridget
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| Posted: May 26 2006 at 10:19am | IP Logged
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SaraP wrote:
One more thought:
NFP is not an alternative to contraception.
NFP - periodic abstinence - is an alternative to TOTAL abstinence in situations where there is a serious reason to avoid pregnancy, but the couple does not need absolute certainty that they won't conceive.
Perhaps if it were presented this way the importance of not avoiding pregnancy routinely would be clearer. Hmm . . . gotta think on that one . . . |
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I think that is an excellent distillation of much of this conversation!
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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SaraP
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| Posted: May 26 2006 at 10:26am | IP Logged
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Leslie wrote:
| After several days of pondering I would love to hear how those that have come to peace and fully trust God's plan for your family.... how do you see stewardship of health? Does Covenant Happiness speak about this? Let me give examples: right now I know two ladies, who are pregnant with their 7th & 8th and one has developed severe gestational diabetes (started with the 6th and got worse with each pregnancy afterwards). According to the secular doctors it has gotten to the point of life threatening. The other mom has a heart condition that developed through multiple pregnancies and is also life threatening for the mom... Please, please understand I mean no insult I just need to train my consience in the truths. Truths that you ladies live! But should our health be something we should consider as a 'grave reason'? After all our bodies are "temples for the Holy Spirit". In both these examples I don't see how these ladies are caring for their bodies? From an ignorant stand point on my behalf I would look at this as irresponsible parenthood . Is it that 'grave reasons' need to be defined in black and white? Are they? |
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Leslie, I'm sure some of the other ladies will have better advice grounded in personal experience to share with you, but I don't want to see your question get lost so I will say a few things.
First, no 'grave reasons' are not defined anywhere in black and white. That is, there is no official list of what qualifies as a grave reason and what doesn't.
Humanae Vitae says:
Quote:
With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.
Responsible parenthood, as we use the term here, has one further essential aspect of paramount importance. It concerns the objective moral order which was established by God, and of which a right conscience is the true interpreter. In a word, the exercise of responsible parenthood requires that husband and wife, keeping a right order of priorities, recognize their own duties toward God, themselves, their families and human society.
From this it follows that they are not free to act as they choose in the service of transmitting life, as if it were wholly up to them to decide what is the right course to follow. On the contrary, they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator. The very nature of marriage and its use makes His will clear, while the constant teaching of the Church spells it out. |
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And that's about a specific as you will find in the official teachings of the Church.
But remember that God WANTS us to know His will for us and if we sincerely seek it, you can be sure that He will make it clear.
Also, secular doctors often (though not always) overblow the seriousness of the health risks associated with pregnancy particularly when a woman already has children. The thinking seems to be that no woman should reasonably have more than a few children, so telling her she absolutely must not have any more really isn't a big deal. A woman who has told that having another child would be life-threatening would do well to seek out a second opinion from a faithful Catholic doc if at all possible (although this is easier said than done, I know).
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Topic: Covenanted Happiness
