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Martha
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Amy, Jenn, and Noreen:
Thank you for responding! I was begining to think I was the only woman on earth attracted to her dh! 
I will say that the guy who led our NFP classes alludes to this in a very abstract way as "God will wear you down eventually. To the point that if you don't truely need to avoid pregnancy, you will find it harder and harder to sustain a desire to do so with NFP."
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Martha
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Rachel May
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Martha wrote:
| Am I the ONLY wife who was incredibly frustrated... . |
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Not "frustrated". Living in constant fear of being blamed for getting pregnant, being Catholic, being a practicing Catholic...  not that any of that would be expressed or even felt, but I would fear hearing it. It was only through conscious choice to be open to my husband that anything happened ever. Giving up NFP solved all of that for me and put him in the fear situation. 
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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Elizabeth
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Rachel, I'm not certain I understand what you mean above. You gave up NFP and now your husband is fearful? Was he opposed to NFP? Is he opposed to being completely open without ABC or NFP?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Erica Sanchez
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4mothermary wrote:
| As a seminarian my priest worked in a crisis pregnancy center. He said they taught the women NFP. He says ideally these women would abstain before marriage, but NFP was better than an abortificiant method or abortion itself. His comment is "Grace builds on nature." Teaching these women the value & beauty of their bodies opened them to God's grace. They were no longer practicing something intrinsicly evil, they were allowing themselves, even if only a little to open up to the beauty of God's call for their fertility. Now, we are not so naive to believe this took place w/every woman, but it did happen. Without the knowledge of NFP, many women would never have opened themselves to hear God. NFP was a baby step in the right direction towards their conversion & trustful surrender to God w/regards to their fertility. Jenny |
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Jenny, you said this just beautifully!!
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Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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fsuadamson
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Oh my goodness, I can't believe I stumbled across this awesome topic of discussion tonight!! I am currently reading 'Life-giving Love' by Kimberly Hahn and have put 'Covenanted Happiness: Love and Commitment in Marriage' as my next read!! 
Thank you Michelle for bringing this up. I know I am two months late but I just can't thank you ladies enough.  I could really quote many of you on the various 'side effects' stated about NFP and think you have written my personal life story. Wow! Thank you for validating everything we have negatively experienced. Now I know it just wasn't me  what a relief.
If you all are still up to answering anymore questions, I would love to hear a response from Rachel to Elizabeth's question because I think this is exactly the case in our marriage right now. I am at truly at the point of wanting to give up NFP but now my husband is in fear of stopping. He is really struggling with the providership role of having any more children since we had our 5th child 7 months ago 
Can any of you ladies give recommendations to help husbands in this position? I do feel our marriage has been one of contraceptive bondage via NFP but how do you help husbands come to this realization?
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MicheleQ
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Leslie,
I'm a fan of "Life Giving Love" too (but can't remember who I loaned my copy to) and think it's a good companion to Covenanted Happiness. I lent my CH copy to Julia Fogassy last weekend and she read it on the plane trip home. She loved it too and so we decided to start up a discussion on it over at the ED list. Anyone is welcome to join us!
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Elizabeth
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MicheleQ wrote:
She loved it too and so we decided to start up a discussion on it over at the ED list. Anyone is welcome to join us!
God bless! |
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I guess I'm kind of sorry to hear this. I know there was a great deal of enthusiasm over discussing this book further here on the 4Real boards, but we were waiting since you said in the More on Covenanted Happiness threadthat you didn't have time until your conferences were over.
I hate to see the conversation move, particularly since we've invested so much energy and interest...I guess there can be simultaneous conversations. Never too much philosophy?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Bridget
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Oh please, lets keep discussing it here! My book budget won't allow my own copy yet, so i was looking forward to hearing more!
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Christine
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Would Julia consider discussing the book here?
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Christine
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I guess I'm kind of sorry to hear this. I know there was a great deal of enthusiasm over discussing this book further here on the 4Real boards, but we were waiting since you said in the More on Covenanted Happiness thread that you didn't have time until your conferences were over. |
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Hmmm... I can't seem to find the post where I said just that, however if you are waiting on me to be finished with conferences that won't be until August as I still have quite a few coming up.
I might point out that since I began this conversation things have changed a bit here at my house in not only am I pregnant but I have also become the director for the RCIA program at my parish. Add to that my dh started a new job yesterday that will mean he is home less which further limits my time as I adjust and make up for the tremendous amount that he contributed at home on a daily basis. I will do what I can but appreciate all of your patience and understanding. 
In any case I didn't mean it to sound like I wouldn't continue to participate in the discussion here. I do not know if Julia (or anyone else) will participate or not. I DID post a link on the ED list to this thread but I like those of you here who hesitate to join another list, some already on the ED list don't have the time to join in here. By all means continue the conversation - you don't need me to do so but I certainly will join in when I can.
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
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StephanieA
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I also know of a young chaste couple who was recently "scandalized" by the NFP talk given during their pre-cana classes. They both expressed sadness in that it took the "mystery" out of the whole process.
Twenty years ago this would have been US! NFP was required by our diocese at the time, and I was totally embarrassed in front of this man whom I knew not in such intimate ways. We left the class, and I cried and told him NOT to call me for a week. I was so ashamed and embarrassed. My wise mother was against me going to the NFP class in the first place. I had NO clue. I did return, but "I" only returned. I would not let him attend with me and the priest said "OK."
Of course, I stupidly charted away for the first 6 months of our marriage until I realized what a lie it was that NFP brought couples together. It frustrated the dickens out of me. This was totally stupid. I stayed chaste to get married and frustrate myself? The charts were pitched and I have never looked back. Our oldest is in college and we are expecting #8 in January. I really think breastfeeding classes ought to be required instead of NFP. Breastfeeding and parenting has brought us together more than NFP ever could. (But I am trying to get the toddler weaned as we speak. Makes this nautious feeling ever more terrible :)
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Cici
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fsuadamson wrote:
If you all are still up to answering anymore questions, I would love to hear a response from Rachel to Elizabeth's question because I think this is exactly the case in our marriage right now. I am at truly at the point of wanting to give up NFP but now my husband is in fear of stopping. He is really struggling with the providership role of having any more children since we had our 5th child 7 months ago
Can any of you ladies give recommendations to help husbands in this position? I do feel our marriage has been one of contraceptive bondage via NFP but how do you help husbands come to this realization? |
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I'm very interested in this, too. The more I learn about my faith the more I become convicted on this issue. While I have convinced dh to be open to 1 more, I'm not sure what the future holds. He had both our littles the other day with him on an errand when someone asked him about our children/would we have more or something to that effect. Apparently, his answer was "I'd have a thousand if I didn't have to pay for college." Apparently, this well meaning lady confirmed his fears by mentioning to him that she was paying 18 thousand a year on college tuition costs for her children.  Probably more info than you need to know, but it's such a struggle to me, spiritually, right now, and well, I'm eager for the responses to above...
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Dawnie
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I am almost afraid to weigh in on this discussion, since I teach NFP, but here are my thoughts on this discussion.
First of all, let me say that I greatly admire all of you ladies who have been so generous in accepting life. I have experienced many of the frustrations you have with using NFP to avoid pregnancy, such as lack of desire during the infertile time and frustration during the fertile time when my desire for my husband was highest. I completely agree that NFP is a privation, as Msgr. Burke points out so well in his book, and that it should only be used for serious reasons. I have also become disillusioned with the way NFP is promoted as a marriage-enhancer, almost like it is a panacea to any problems a married couple may experience. I remember being frustrated during times DH and I were experiencing problems in our marriage and thinking, "Why is this happening? We're using NFP, we're following the Church's teaching, why is this happening to us?" I think that those of us who teach NFP would do well to re-think our approach and be more honest about the sacrifices that using NFP requires of a couple. However, having children requires sacrifices of a couple, too. I think that whether a couple is using NFP or letting the babies come as they may, any difficulties that arise between the couple are usually a result of the personal faults of the couple (selfishness, lack of patience, immaturity, we all have things we struggle with). I don't think it's fair to blame problems in a marriage on NFP (or on having children), when the real problem is a lack of dying to self in one or both of the spouses. Using NFP or having babies will usually bring personal faults to the forefront and (by the mercy of God) get our attention so that God can start working on us! For example, Bridget's comment that NFP turns men into beggars, in my opinion, indicates more of a problem with lack of communication between the spouses and perhaps even selfishness on the wife's part. If the wife is unwilling to have relations with her husband and only does so when he "begs" for it, is that a problem with NFP, or would they have that problem regardless?
My husband and I have found, in our own marriage, that a less than serious reason to avoid pregnancy does not provide the motivation to continue charting and abstaining during the fertile time. I think that if a couple does have serious reason to avoid pregnancy, God does offer them the grace to make the sacrifices that using NFP requires.
After reading the posts about some of you being scandalized by going to an NFP class, I am re-thinking the way we teach. We currently teach the class to couples, but I always feel extremely uncomfortable during the "mucus presentation." I think the couples feel uncomfortable, too, as there are hardly ever any questions or requests for clarification. I've been thinking that it would be better to separate the men and women, at least during the mucus presentation, so that the women would feel more comfortable asking questions if they needed to.
Lastly, I think we need to realize who we are trying to teach NFP to. The Catholic couples who are devout in their faith, commited to being faithful to the Church no matter what the cost, and who are eager to be blessed with children are, sadly, in the minority. You ladies are living the Church's teaching with generous hearts. Over 90% of our Catholic brothers and sisters are contracepting and sterilizing themselves! These couples are the couples we are trying to reach when dioceses require NFP classes for engaged couples, many of whom are already living together and fornicating. Unfortunately, an NFP class is the ONLY place many of them will hear the truth about the Church's teaching on marriage and s*x. With the exception of a few very brave priests, most couples do not hear about contraception from the pulpit. But, as I said earlier, I think that the way NFP is "marketed" has to be changed. It's being "sold" now as "safe, healthy, and effective," "easy to learn," and with an average of "7-14 days of abstinance per cycle." I think this is an effort to compete against the lure of contraception. NFP is safe and healthy (as in there are no chemicals or foreign devices to cause side effects), it is effective when the rules are followed, and it is easy to learn. 7-14 days of abstinance may be the average, but DH and I have abstained for a lot longer than that at times (because of breastfeeding cycles and irregular cycles). Unfortunately, it is easier to just take a pill (or get a shot) or use a device during relations than to chart fertility signs and then abstain during fertile times. The privation that NFP requires and the sacrifice that having children requires just don't appeal to many couples in a "me first" society. Being faithful requires sacrifice, whether it's lived out in the generous decision to have a large family, or the decision to use NFP to avoid pregnancy. I think we need to somehow move couples to embrace the cross (in whatever form it may take) rather than run away from it, but I'm not sure how to do that yet.
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Bridget
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Cici wrote:
fsuadamson wrote:
I
Can any of you ladies give recommendations to help husbands in this position? I do feel our marriage has been one of contraceptive bondage via NFP but how do you help husbands come to this realization? |
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I'm very interested in this, too. The more I learn about my faith the more I become convicted on this issue. While I have convinced dh to be open to 1 more, I'm not sure what the future holds. He had both our littles the other day with him on an errand when someone asked him about our children/would we have more or something to that effect. Apparently, his answer was "I'd have a thousand if I didn't have to pay for college." Apparently, this well meaning lady confirmed his fears by mentioning to him that she was paying 18 thousand a year on college tuition costs for her children. Probably more info than you need to know, but it's such a struggle to me, spiritually, right now, and well, I'm eager for the responses to above... |
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Our poor husbands! They want to be involved in teh schooling and raise their children, often their own fathers were not a role model for that. So they have to figure it out on their own.
Then they have to earn a living for their family. The way our culture and monetary system has evolved, that is now a two person job, and they are doing it alone so we can be home with the children.
Because they are out in the world, they face ugliness daily and they often have to deal with how different our families are from most others. They watch their co-workers get new cars, boats and go on cool vacations. Our guys clean the crackers crumbs out of the back seat of their old cars and pack up the tent for a family vacation.
Feminism has hammered away at manliness over the years, so they have to figure out how to be manly leaders at work and home, without upsetting the women around them.
Our men have such a heavy load. St. Joseph is the man to help them!
I think the best thing we can do to help them, is pray for them each morning, be cheerful, live beneath our means and train the children to be our helpers with the household stuff as much as possible. When dad comes home, he can relax and enjoy being with his family and do fun things with them.
I wish the dads would talk to each other. I know dads of large families all share this same burden of 'how am I going to provide for all these children?'
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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StephanieA
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Bridget is correct. Our poor husbands! I would go a bit crazy going to work everyday and having to constantly defend our way of life. (And I know hd does. Several co-workers who have said quite mean things to dh about having a large family and constantly embarrass him.) In-law family get-togethers are disturbing enough for me. That question -"Are you having anyMORE?" - still ruffles my feathers. We are getting together this weekend for a graduation party, and I'm sure we'll get the question. I guess I'll pop the news and say, "Yes. We are. In January. We are all excited."
We do need to pray for our husbands AND let them know we are doing so. I have been known to say to dh, "I offered my Sunday Mass for you today." He knows we are both in this together and are definetly going against the tide.
As far as college goes....In my opinion, this isn't a parent's responsiblity. If so, where does it stop? Associates degree? Undergraduate? Graduate? Med-school? While I would love to have the money to send our children to the college of their choice (or especially to a solidly Catholic college), it won't happen here right now, and the children are well-aware of the situation. My oldest son wanted to swim competitively in college and would have been good enough to get a substantial swimming scholarship to a larger university. But the college's expensives, traveling expenses, etc. were still too much for him to afford on his summer and tutoring wages and with even a little help from us. We are discouraging too much debt at the undergraduate level also.
So he settled for an academic scholarship at our local university and is living at home. Not his first choice and again, my husband's family thinks we are nuts!
It is tough. I don't think the decision to have a large family should include higher education though. Again, my in-laws specifically limited their families to 2 and 3 children so they could send their children to the college of their choice. It hurts to hear the talk, and sometimes I doubt my choice until I get home, refocus, and look at my children.
Blessings,
Stephanie
DH - 20 years, DS- 18, 16, 14, DD- 11, 8, 5, 2 and baby in January.
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Mary G
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Bridget wrote:
Our men have such a heavy load. St. Joseph is the man to help them!
I think the best thing we can do to help them, is pray for them each morning, be cheerful, live beneath our means and train the children to be our helpers with the household stuff as much as possible. When dad comes home, he can relax and enjoy being with his family and do fun things with them.
I wish the dads would talk to each other. I know dads of large families all share this same burden of 'how am I going to provide for all these children?'
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Here's one group whose apostolate is just that: KEPHA -- I think Michele Q's husband is involved?
And Steve Wood runs Dads.org, a site about Christian fatherhood.
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Elizabeth
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StephanieA wrote:
It hurts to hear the talk, and sometimes I doubt my choice until I get home, refocus, and look at my children.
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Boy, this quote could really take us a long way. It's lonely in a crowd if the crowd is made up of people who sterilized in their early thirties after two children and have no idea what kind of life we lead. They think they know--the vision is somewhere between the new Cheaper By the Dozen and the new Yours, Mine, and Ours. But they don't begin to understand the faith involved, the hope involved, the love involved. They don't even really understand the work involved.
It always hits me in the quiet of the evening, when I'm reading stories and enjoying pillow talk with my little ones. They say so much and so much of it is profound. They are so happy and they bring such joy. And they love their lives.They don't for a minute buy into society's distorted ideas.
This is a great quote, Stephanie. Thanks.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Christine
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fsuadamson wrote:
| He is really struggling with the providership role of having any more children since we had our 5th child 7 months ago |
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This might sound simplistic, but before we were married, my husband shared the motto on his family crest with me, Dominus providebit, God will provide. When I used to stress about our finances, my husband would respond, "Dominus providebit". Although I still stress, I do not express my anxiety because I have learned that God will provide. If you are open and faithful, God will provide. You might not be monetarily wealthy, drive a nice car, or live in a big house, but God will provide everything you need. Finally, I remind myself of my oldest sons words to me last year. Out of the blue one day he said, "Mommy, we're rich." I kind of looked at him. And he continued, "Mommy, we're rich. We have a lot of children in our family." Sometimes it takes children to see the truth, to see that wealth or being rich does not mean having a lot of money. It does mean loving your spouse and your children unconditionally and openly accepting every child God sends into your family.
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Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
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Dawnie
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Christine wrote:
| Finally, I remind myself of my oldest sons words to me last year. Out of the blue one day he said, "Mommy, we're rich." I kind of looked at him. And he continued, "Mommy, we're rich. We have a lot of children in our family." |
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Now there's a kid who's been well taught! I bet that made your day when he said that!
Dawn
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SaraP
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Thank you, Dawnie.
I am an NFP teacher also (Billings Method), read this thread last night and have been weighing how to respond, but I think you have said almost everything necessary so now I don't need to! Not that that will stop me.
Dawnie wrote:
| Over 90% of our Catholic brothers and sisters are contracepting and sterilizing themselves! These couples are the couples we are trying to reach when dioceses require NFP classes for engaged couples, many of whom are already living together and fornicating. Unfortunately, an NFP class is the ONLY place many of them will hear the truth about the Church's teaching on marriage and s*x. |
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I just want to reemphasize this. NFP presentations and/or classes as a part of marriage prep are not for the properly catechized, really ready to be married couples. They are for the overwhelming majority of others who are already living together, fornicating and using contraception.
No, most of them DON'T have grave reasons to avoid pregnancy (even though they think they do), but it is much harder for the Holy Spirit to open their eyes to this and soften their hearts to placing the planning of their family in God's capable hands, when they are engaged in something objectively evil (contraception) on a day-to-day basis. For these couples NFP is often used with a contraceptive mindset, but even this will open the door for the Holy Spirit and hearts and minds DO change. God is exceptionally generous with His grace when we make even feeble efforts to do His will.
Regarding the discomfort couples feel while learning NFP: I usually teach privately - woman to woman (husbands are welcome to attend, but most choose not to) - for just this reason. I will add, though, that I have taught a remarkable number of women who remark that they are relieved to learn that cervical mucus is a normal, healthy indication of fertility rather than sign of infection (which is what they had thought previously). So I think that as mothers we do need to remember to prepare our DDs for ALL of the physical changes they will observe as they mature.
What I do think comes out in your posts that needs serious attention from people who teach and promote NFP is that so many of you felt like you SHOULD use NFP even if you didn't have a reason to. When I speak to marriage prep groups I always tell them that NFP is nothing more than knowledge and whether they choose to use that knowledge to achieve pregnancy, avoid pregnancy or to ignore it all together is completely between each couple and God. Is that not the 'party line'?
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Mama to six on earth, two in heaven and two waiting in Russia. Foxberry Farm Almanac
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