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MicheleQ
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Bridget wrote:
| The ideal would be that if a couple is prepared for marriage, then they should be prepared for children. |
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Bridget,
Msgr. Burke would agree. He states that if a couple isn't ready for children they aren't ready for marriage! This might sound harsh but if we realize that using NFP to avoid pregnancy is a privation of a good why would we want to start off a marriage that way?
He also makes some very good points about how romance in the early stages of marriage are sometimes just what is needed to spur an immature couple to levels of sacrifice they might otherwise not attempt.
Just because someone is young doesn't mean they can't be a good parent , just as being older doesn't automatically make one better suited for parenthood. Being "mature" in the spiritual sense isn't about age it's about sacrifice and self-giving.
Dh and I became parents at just barely 18. Yes we were very young but we're also very much in love and that made a huge difference in what we were willing to do.
This can be a heavy and touchy subject and I do recognize that there are many faithful Catholics out there who truly beleive NFP to be the best thing for a marriage. I don't. My belief comes from my understanding of Church teaching on the natter and my personal experience of using NFP to postpone pregnancy.
God bless!
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teachingmom
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MicheleQ wrote:
| I am not in favor of teaching NFP to teens or even couples in marriage prep as I would echo Bridget's concerns about it being an offense to chastity. |
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I have to both agree and disagree with this. I completely agree with the part about teaching teens. But I disagree about the value of an NFP class for engaged couples. I believe that the best time to learn NFP and really understand the signs is while chaste. From what I understand, it is much harder to understand the signs after the birth of a baby, which I suppose would be the logical time for a married couple to turn to NFP in a perfect world. Dh and I dearly hoped to conceive immediately after marriage, but we took the CCL NFP class while engaged. I honestly don't believe it had any ill effect on us chastity-wise. I have been glad to have the information in the years since.
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MichelleW
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I benefitted greatly from the biology lessons in NFP. My body has always been "weird" and it enabled me to actually talk intelligently to my ob/gyn and to describe accurately what I was observing. I have been considering teaching it to my daughter when she reaches puberty so that she has better control over her cycle than I did. My body was so unpredictable that I was always having embarrassing accidents. I would really like to spare her those experiences.
On the other hand, dh and I were shocked at how much closer we became, how much more intimate intimacy was when we IGNORED all the NFP signs and rules. We quit charting six years ago and it freed us to truly love each other and rest in God's will for us.
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Elizabeth
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I agree with Michele and Bridget, but I do see Irene's point. I think the problem lies in how NFP is usually presented to engaged couples. It's over-emphasized. It becomes the default mode, instead of true openness to the provision of God. Some women (and men) don't understand their bodies and sexuality on even a basic level and those classes could provide valuable information in that sense. The trouble is that often they are hearing that the holiest path for married love is charting--it's the most self-disciplined, the most mortifying. The most beneficial. I don't think that is true at all. I've charted twice in my married life--after chemo, to reassure myself that I was indeed still fertile and last year, while trying to conceive. For what it's worth, it was a conversation with Bridget where I was able to really look at trusting providence with ALL family planning that I resolved to stop charting. That conversation echoed dozens of conversations Michele and I have had over the years--back when babies were coming quickly. The difference was that I was using NFP to conceive and so my wrangling this time was over the appropriateness of the chart for conception. I'd never used it to prevent a pregnancy. I was very much convinced that I wanted God to decide upon timing and spacing of births. So, why, now that the timing wasn't what I wanted, was I resorting to trying to manipulate it all? Certainly, there is value in a couple of charts to take to the doctor to determine if something is medically amiss. But I didn't need month after month of the very same chart for those purposes. It was time to trust God with both opening and closing the womb. We conceived two weeks later. I don't think it's coincidental. The chart was in the way of the relationship. I find charting to be un-natural. For me, it's easier to hear both God and my husband when I'm unconcerned with plotting and planning and controlling.
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Lisbet
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It's so refreshing to see this topic being discussed in such a calm and mature manner.
Wendy, I am in year 4 FAMILIA, I animated years 1 and 2, our group started out as 12 women, we lost 6, 4 lessons through year 1, we are down to 4 of us in year 4. This subject was a very big part of so many women leaving.
My husband and I are both 30, we were married and started our family at 19. I won't even get into our experience with CCLI over this issue. The way they promote NFP really gets my goat. (we were a teaching couple for a year) I've been approached by people telling me "Oh, you must not breastfeed", when I say that I do indeed, they proceed to tell me I must be doing it 'wrong'. (I've been tandem/triple nursing for 9 years now, any more nipple stimulation would be impossible!!! LOL!) We returned to our van after mass one day to find that aggrevating rainbow NFP pamphlet on our windshield. 
Okay, I'm sorry to just vent like that, I was just sharing how I see this "NFP is required" to be prevalent. How "children are a gift" is given lip service, a mere mention, if that, then on to the nitty gritty of how to have as much s*x, and still avoid that big bad baby...
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MicheleQ
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Let me say from the outset that I am speaking strictly here about NFP as a means to avoid pregnancy. I know it can be used to achieve pregnancy and that's a different matter. Though as some noted above that too can be fraught with difficulties.
Irene - I see your point and I am not saying I am completely against teaching NFP to engaged couples. I didn't learn NFP until after many years of having babies and didn't find it to be difficult. I don't take temps or chart I simply observe mucus and it has worked well for us when we needed it. I would guess I am probably fortunate in that way and fully recognize that my personal experience isn't necessarily reflective of others experience.
What I don't agree with is the way some diocese' require NFP instruction for engaged couples. That should not be. If a couple wants to learn they should be able to but they should also be taught properly (and in a one on one setting not a group). Couples need to clearly understand why it is the Church limits the use of NFP to those who have "grave reasons" and they need to be instructed in the things Msgr. Burke writes about such as what children do for a relationship and how the privation of that good can be detrimental. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and this kind of knowledge has the potential to be abused. Without proper formation how tempting it could be for a wife who's feeling selfish to make excuses and avoid relations when she knows she's fertile. Or vice versa for a wife whose dh has said he doesn't feel ready for another to not tell her husband when she's fertile and try to get pregnant anyway.
Any woman who has come from using artificial birth control will tell you there's nothing more hurtful to the romantic mood than to have your dh ask "is it safe?". NFP allows for the same thing because for all the talk of NFP being something the couple does together the fact is that in the majority of cases it is the woman who knows where she's at and what's going on.
I wish I had time to go over everything I have written and make sure it sounds OK but I don't. I trust you will all take it in the Christian spirit of love that it is written.
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
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gwendyt
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Elizabeth wrote:
I think the problem lies in how NFP is usually presented to engaged couples. It's over-emphasized. It becomes the default mode, instead of true openness to the provision of God. Some women (and men) don't understand their bodies and sexuality on even a basic level and those classes could provide valuable information in that sense. The trouble is that often they are hearing that the holiest path for married love is charting--it's the most self-disciplined, the most mortifying.
Completely agree! This conversation couldn't be more timely for me as there are a few of us exploring ideas on how to better educate our young people, engaged couples as well as any interested married couples in our parish/area. This discussion is causing me to rethink our initial approach. Unfortunately, I'm seeing there is no easy answer/solution.
Michelle writes:
Any woman who has come from using artificial birth control will tell you there's nothing more hurtful to the romantic mood than to have your dh ask "is it safe?". NFP allows for the same thing because for all the talk of NFP being something the couple does together the fact is that in the majority of cases it is the woman who knows where she's at and what's going on.
Boy, can I attest to this! Quite honestly, my DH wants nothing to do with helping to chart and doesn't care to know the intimate details of my bodily fluids. Because of all the talk I hear about how NFP brings you so close together, to hear him say things like this actually hurts, and I tend to start thinking "why can't he be like those other husbands?" On the other hand, both of us have concerns about having more children, and I think I'm beginning to see that exploring this together (with God) might very well have nothing to do with NFP - know what I mean?
What about educating men and women (from teens on up) on the beauty of how God created our bodies, which would include some more basic biology (thus create an awareness/understanding of body workings) without actually teaching NFP? Almost helping to create more of a "mindset" so things like homosexuality, contraception, etc wouldn't seem so normal or acceptable anymore. Does that make sense?
Thanks to all for this great discussion!
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Wendy
Married to DH Joe 18 yrs., 8 beautiful children - 2 girls, 6 boys (14,12,9,7,5,3,1,newbie born 3/1/2010)
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MicheleQ
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gwendyt wrote:
| Boy, can I attest to this! Quite honestly, my DH wants nothing to do with helping to chart and doesn't care to know the intimate details of my bodily fluids. Because of all the talk I hear about how NFP brings you so close together, to hear him say things like this actually hurts, and I tend to start thinking "why can't he be like those other husbands?" On the other hand, both of us have concerns about having more children, and I think I'm beginning to see that exploring this together (with God) might very well have nothing to do with NFP - know what I mean? |
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I do know what you mean but I personally don't think my dh has to know all the gory details (and neither does he) to be able to pray and discern as a couple the best thing for our family. It takes trust but as I said it can also open the door to temptation so it has to be used prudently.
gwendyt wrote:
| What about educating men and women (from teens on up) on the beauty of how God created our bodies, which would include some more basic biology (thus create an awareness/understanding of body workings) without actually teaching NFP? Almost helping to create more of a "mindset" so things like homosexuality, contraception, etc wouldn't seem so normal or acceptable anymore. Does that make sense? |
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Yes that makes sense but - at least in regards to teens - this comes under s*x education and would be completely at the parent's discretion and is again something I think should be done one on one.
I DO think it's valuable to teach your girls how their bodies work and that it can be done outside the context of NFP. I certainly plan to do this with my girls. As the mother of many boys (some grown) this isn't an area where dh and I have felt it necessary to talk to our sons about before marriage. Our plan is that dad will bring it up with a son when he is engaged. We feel that the best option for our family. Others may do it differently. Our son who is a seminarian IS studying this topic as well and we have had many discussions on the matter. Now that I have read Msgr. Burke's book I will be recommending said son read it too.
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
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MicheleQ
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MicheleQ wrote:
| As the mother of many boys (some grown) this isn't an area where dh and I have felt it necessary to talk to our sons about before marriage. Our plan is that dad will bring it up with a son when he is engaged. |
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LOL! I just realized I should probably clarify this lest you think my grown sons are woefully ignorant of the facts of life!  We do (well dh does) talk to our boys about their bodies and the way they work, but we give them just a very basic overview of a woman's body and no details in regards to what one would need to know to practice NFP.
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
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gwendyt
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Okay, first of all, I want to know how to get the quotes from other posts in that nice little yellow box!! (My computer savvy could use some help!)
In response to Michele...is what you were saying to me is that you would chart and keep that stuff to yourself while still praying/discerning with husband? Because that's what we've done in the past; however, I feel a great burden on me when this is the case - I don't feel I alone should be shouldering that responsibility, and I almost feel I don't need one more thing in my full mind to keep track of. Plus, if I'm keeping my husband from the details, I would still finding him asking things like "so, how's tonight looking?" or something like that
Also, I agree about teaching to teens as falling under the s*x education area, and thus, completely at the parents discretion. So, in regards to the people I'm surveying anyway, I'm finding it is something they're viewing as attending WITH their daughters - they want the outside help because they themselves are floundering on these issues. One on one training - absolutely the ideal, but we have so many uninformed people out there - can we change things for the better quickly if all that's offered is one on one? - I don't think single teachers could serve the masses, and believe me, in our diocese, there are slim pickings for those that would do something like this. Thus, I'm thinking take the one or two that will and have them teach to a group so as to reach as many people as possible. Oh gosh, I'm typing this so quickly I don't know if I'm making sense - hope so 'cause I've got to help my little guy!
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MicheleQ
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gwendyt wrote:
| Okay, first of all, I want to know how to get the quotes from other posts in that nice little yellow box!! (My computer savvy could use some help!) |
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reply to a post by hitting the quote button and then remove the parts you don't want to quote.
Quote:
| Michele...is what you were saying to me is that you would chart and keep that stuff to yourself while still praying/discerning with husband? Because that's what we've done in the past; however, I feel a great burden on me when this is the case - I don't feel I alone should be shouldering that responsibility, and I almost feel I don't need one more thing in my full mind to keep track of. Plus, if I'm keeping my husband from the details, I would still finding him asking things like "so, how's tonight looking?" or something like that |
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I only check mucus - my dh is not involved in helping me determine if it's fertile mucus or not and we both prefer it that way. When we have discerned and discussed the need to avoid pregnancy he doesn't "ask" me where we're at, I just let him know and that's that - it works for us. I accept it as part of the way things are but yes it IS a burden on me however it is not one that I blame my husband for but simply one I see as an unavoidable hazard of using NFP to avoid pregnancy.
This is where I see the whole idea that NFP is such a wonderful thing the couple can do together as not being entirely true. I know SOME couples do it that way and it works great but almost EVERY woman I have personally talked to about it doesn't have that experience and like me just accept it as the way it is.
I feel like it's a line we've been sold that just isn't realistic. But it's being said because NFP is being promoted not as a privation but as something that will enhance your marriage. Well it MIGHT, in an ideal situation but then again it might not and it also might hurt it - why aren't we being told that? WHY are people so afraid to tell us that? I'm sorry I don't mean to rant. I know that this is a touchy issue and I also know that for those who struggle to conceive it's VERY painful. But that brings up another point. I have a friend who used NFP to avoid pregnancy for years (from the very beginning of her marriage) and now that she wants to get pregnant she can't. She thought she was the NFP "queen" but now wonders if she was ever even able to get pregnant. Looking back on their choices she and her dh now wonder why they waited and wish they had been taught differently. It's truly heartbreaking.
gwendyt wrote:
| Also, I agree about teaching to teens as falling under the s*x education area, and thus, completely at the parents discretion. So, in regards to the people I'm surveying anyway, I'm finding it is something they're viewing as attending WITH their daughters - they want the outside help because they themselves are floundering on these issues. One on one training - absolutely the ideal, but we have so many uninformed people out there - can we change things for the better quickly if all that's offered is one on one? - I don't think single teachers could serve the masses, and believe me, in our diocese, there are slim pickings for those that would do something like this. Thus, I'm thinking take the one or two that will and have them teach to a group so as to reach as many people as possible. Oh gosh, I'm typing this so quickly I don't know if I'm making sense - hope so 'cause I've got to help my little guy! |
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You're making sense and I understand what you are saying. Our diocese uses mentor couples one on one. It works well and I think it's far better than the way it use to be done. One on one is the ideal but you are correct in that we may have to simply use what we have for now since something is better than nothing. The problem is education. Too many Catholics don't know this stuff and so aren't living it. We aren't hearing it from the pulpit often enough either. BUT I do think things are changing for the better and we will see great things in the future.
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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gwendyt
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Michele wrote:
This is where I see the whole idea that NFP is such a wonderful thing the couple can do together as not being entirely true.
I feel like it's a line we've been sold that just isn't realistic. But it's being said because NFP is being promoted not as a privation but as something that will enhance your marriage. Well it MIGHT, in an ideal situation but then again it might not and it also might hurt it - why aren't we being told that? WHY are people so afraid to tell us that? |
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Yes! This is really what I want to reflect more upon.
I think we aren't being told that because then people who have trouble w/NFP (or who think they MIGHT have trouble) must come to grips with this "privation" thought - otherwise, they might tend to think "so the Church is offering me nothing?" and be much more apt to toss the whole mass of teaching on marriage and family right out the window rather than face the truth of what God really intends for them as a married couple. Know what I mean?
Also, if you remember, the people on the committee who were most vocal and opposed to the church NOT lifting the ban on contraception stemmed mainly from those who did encounter difficulty with NFP (or those who studied these couple's problems) - they felt they were being ignored. Was the concept of privation being emphasized then? I've never heard it mentioned.
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Wendy
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gwendyt
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Sorry - still didn't quite get that quote thing right  The first two pharagraphs in my post above are from Michele
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Wendy
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Elizabeth
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Wendy, if you hit the quote key on the post you want to quote, the entire post will show up in your "Post reply" box. At the beginning of it will appear [QUOTE= Michele] and at the end will appear [ /QUOTE]. You delete anything you don't want to quote that is between those prompts. Or, cut and paste from the posts and key in the prompts yourself. The quote fairy visited your post above  .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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BrendaPeter
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Thank you so much Michelle for starting the discussion on "Covenanted Happiness" and NFP. I'm so greatful for Monsignor Burke for putting into words what so many of us have felt all along. One of the saddest fallouts from the "push" for NFP has been that couples who do not practice NFP are judged as "irresponsible". I personally know one very "irresponsible" couple . They are expecting their 10th child. Money is VERY tight. They have 1 bathroom & a very small house. They are incredibly, unashamedly in love. I admire them greatly.
I also know of a young chaste couple who was recently "scandalized" by the NFP talk given during their pre-cana classes. They both expressed sadness in that it took the "mystery" out of the whole process.
As usual, there are no perfect solutions. But like you Michelle, I agree that things are getting better & we are going to see great things in the future.
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MichelleM
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BrendaPeter wrote:
I also know of a young chaste couple who was recently "scandalized" by the NFP talk given during their pre-cana classes. They both expressed sadness in that it took the "mystery" out of the whole process.
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Wow! This discussion really has me thinking quite a bit!
I just wanted to share my experience as it does seem to be quite different than others that have posted. I live in a diocese where NFP is now required for Marriage Prep. I say "now" because when my husband and I were married it was not a requirement. How my heart wishes it would have been! Let me explain...
Within 2 weeks of meeting my husband we moved in together. We both had just turned 19. He was raised in the Church, I was not, although I had come "to know the Lord" at 16 through a Protastant Renewal Weekend. Lots of spiritual feelings but no formation.
Although we were far from living a godly life, we both had the desire to be married before God. My husband insisted that we be married in the Catholic Church and I insisted that we be married in the Episcopal Church by the priest I had known as a teenager. We meet with both a Catholic Priest and an Episcopal priest, and with a special dispensation from the Bishops, we were allowed to have a joint ceremony outside of a Mass. (We had to agree to live as brother and sister until our wedding.)
We went to an Engaged Encounter and meet with a mentor couple (once) for our marriage prep. There was no mention of NFP. There was no explanation or instruction on the Church's teaching on openness to life. I can't help but think that if attending an NFP class would have been required that the Holy Spirit would have opened our eyes and hearts to the Church's beautiful teachings. And rather than contracepting during the first years of our marriage we would have been welcoming a beautiful baby and possibly not miscarrying the beautiful child we lost. (In my heart I always felt that contraceptives were the cause of our miscarriage even before I had ever heard that they could be.)
As for scandal, that was not my experience this winter when I did attend my first NFP class. My experience was quite the opposite. I came away with such an appreciation for the miracle of life, for the blessing of my fertility, for the awesome grandeur of our Lord and such marvel at the intelligent design of our feminine bodies! It still amazes me!
I do understand concerns about being judged as "irresponsible" for not using NFP. (I know I have family members who see my husband and I that way.)
IMHO I think that our Bishop, Archbishop Chaput, requires NFP in Marriage Prep not for well formed Catholic's who are open to life but for those who have not been formed well, who do not know or understand the Church's teaching and without proper instruction will be contracepting on their wedding night. 
Blessings,
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momwise
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MichelleM wrote:
| As for scandal, that was not my experience this winter when I did attend my first NFP class. My experience was quite the opposite. I came away with such an appreciation for the miracle of life, for the blessing of my fertility, for the awesome grandeur of our Lord and such marvel at the intelligent design of our feminine bodies! It still amazes me! |
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I want to preface this by saying I have been following this discussion from about the halfway point and have not read the book, so my opinion is just based on personal experience and not an opinion of the book.
I went through a very similar marriage prep weekend Michelle. Although in our case we were not even cautioned to live as brother and sister until the ceremony. I believe it was about 8 or 9 years into my marriage when I received the first clues that artificial contraception was not allowed for Catholics. A couple of years later when I attended NFP classes it was like a bombshell dropped. NFP was the best thing that happened to us and probably saved our family.
MichelleM wrote:
| IMHO I think that our Bishop, Archbishop Chaput, requires NFP in Marriage Prep not for well formed Catholic's who are open to life but for those who have not been formed well, who do not know or understand the Church's teaching and without proper instruction will be contracepting on their wedding night. |
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I think this is exactly why he did it Michelle . It may not be the perfect way; perhaps there should be an opt-out option for those couple who can truly state that they are open to life and do not plan to use any contraception and do not want to know this information before their marriage. But I agree, most couples are living together and contracepting before marriage and I've heard some anecdotal evidence that the NFP classes have inspired them to live chastely for the rest of their engagements.
OTOH, NFP has truly been a gift for serious reasons for postponing pregnancy for couples that were totally open to life, such as chemo, a seriously ill child, etc. (and then there are the developing nations where there truly is no more food for the family members). I know a couple could learn the method as need be but it seems like it would be such a burden off of them to have a summary knowledge of it.
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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momwise
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gwendyt wrote:
| The group is split about 50/50 - those who have been trying to be faithful to church teaching in their marriages (although weren't always there!) and those who are hearing all about God's plan for marrriage in depth for the first time. I cannot believe how terribly difficult some people are finding this - they truly are just not okay with much of it. |
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I'm coming back to this post because I had an idea....I have been listening to Christopher West's tape Marriage and the Eucharist and it occured to me that it might be helpful to your FAMILIA group Wendy.
There are a lot of low cost and free resources by Christopher West. It might be helpful to anyone being introduced to the Church's teachings on marriage and family to hear the message of the Theology of the Body that through contraception, the body lies, since the conjugal act "speaks" the message of self-sacrificing love and its fruitfulness. I'm probably explaining it badly, but it might help your group to listen to the CD's or tapes because it fills in the "why."
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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gwendyt
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momwise wrote:
I have been listening to Christopher West's tape Marriage and the Eucharist and it occured to me that it might be helpful to your FAMILIA group Wendy.
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I LOVE this tape! Thank you for mentioning this - actually a lady in our group is borrowing this from me right now. Unfortunately, she isn't really one I'm concerned about! However, I will ask her feedback and see what she thinks about sharing this with the group. Believe it or not, two of the people who are struggling did read "The Good News About Sex & Marriage" and said it really didn't do anything for them or alleviate their specific concerns - I have to admit I was surprised because I do think it's a decent book. Our group is strong believers when it comes to the Eucharist, though, and this tape makes excellent connections between the Eucharist and conjugal married love. It might be worth a try. The other reason alot of them are leaning on is their spouse not being as serious or as far spiritually as they are - that's makes the situation tougher, I'll admit.
Thanks for the reminder on that tape!
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Wendy
Married to DH Joe 18 yrs., 8 beautiful children - 2 girls, 6 boys (14,12,9,7,5,3,1,newbie born 3/1/2010)
A Little of This, A Little of That
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MicheleQ
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gwendyt wrote:
| Believe it or not, two of the people who are struggling did read "The Good News About Sex & Marriage" and said it really didn't do anything for them or alleviate their specific concerns - I have to admit I was surprised because I do think it's a decent book. |
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Wendy,
Different presentations make different impressions. Maybe a different author would strike a note with them more than West did. Kimberly Hahn's Life Giving Love is another good resource as is of course Cormac Burke's Covenanted Happiness. 
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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