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kjohnson
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I bet Kathryn. Isn't paperwork fun?!
I remembered another interesting reference page on EWTN's website. It lists the 9 Western Rite Churches directly under the jurisdiction of the Pope and then a description of the Eastern Rites and Churches.
List
Click on "Eastern Catholic Churches" and then click on "Catholic Rites and Churches."
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Katherine
Wife to Doug and Mother of 6
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kjohnson
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Bookswithtea wrote:
As a convert from Evangelicalism I know exactly what you are talking about.  |
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Well, converting to Eastern Orthodoxy, I am ashamed to admit that I know this all too well. I was so, so prideful when we converted. (Just ask Jennifer Dostalik! She actually put up with me, God bless her.) But God loves us too much to allow that to go on for long. Thankfully I was humbled and can see how ridiculous that posture was. It's a convert trap that the Evil One sets up. You head in the right direction and get to the doors, then you loose your soul because you lack the humility necessary to enter the Kingdom.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I have this but haven't read it yet. I did get to hear her give a talk on Icons once in San Diego at a Nazarene college, and she signed my copy of The Illumined Heart. She radiates God's peace in person. |
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I highly recommend it for Lent. It's so nicely broken up into 40 readings. And even though it's prayed publicly in only the Eastern Churches during Lent, the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete is a treasure and since it is pre-schism it is the common heritage of the Universal Church.
Bookswithtea wrote:
 Love this. I wish I could get that across to my in laws. They are ex Catholic and are convinced they know the faith better than poor deceived dh and I.  |
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I used to try way too hard with my fil. Now I just answer his questions in as simple a way as possible and go by the motto, "much prayer, few words." I've seen more fruit from that. Nothing is a better witness to those who think you're simply deceived than for them to experience the warmth of the Holy Spirit from you.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| May I ask what the problem is? Seems like it shouldn't be that complicated??? |
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The problem is that we're weird! 
Seriously (well, I am serious about the weird part too), my husband was baptized Protestant, I was baptized Roman Catholic. We were both confirmed Roman Catholic. As far as our children, they were all baptized Roman Catholic, but then ALL six of us were chrismated Orthodox and communed in the Orthodox Church. So the paperwork question is what is this family's ritual status. We pretty much represent both lungs of the Church within 1 household. If the canonist defaults back to the ritual status of Latin Rite, then the paperwork is a nightmare to have our new baby baptized, chrismated and communed this spring in the Byz. Catholic Church. I think they've made the paperwork harder to get through to discourage Roman Catholics from coming to an Eastern Catholic Church to avoid the confirmation prep required in the Latin Rite. In our case, we're there all the time and even our 3 year old has been confirmed and receives the Eucharist each Sunday, so we really want the consistency with all 5 of the children. But most importantly, I would be devastated if my newborn couldn't receive the Eucharist. It's one of my favorite practices of the Eastern Churches. It's beautiful.
Our priest is working hard on it for us. I know our baby and I will be churched at 40 days. Father said that wasn't a problem, but hopefully the baby will be able to receive the Sacraments of Initiation the following week.
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Katherine
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Bookswithtea
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kjohnson wrote:
It's a convert trap that the Evil One sets up. You head in the right direction and get to the doors, then you loose your soul because you lack the humility necessary to enter the Kingdom. |
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Good point. What frustrates me these days is that I am getting tired of being the Catholic who explains and helps protestants to understand that Catholics are Christians too. I try to practice St. Francis of Assisi's directive to only use words when necessary. I don't make a big deal out of it. I wait until asked before mentioning what church I attend. I avoid questions like the plague these days and just try to be kind and helpful.
But it seems like every time I try to get involved with a nondenom homeschool group I end up getting put in this position. And I never know what kind of people are in the room, either...sometimes blatantly anti Catholic and willing to attack me publicly about it (happened 2 weeks ago) or the women who find it all very interesting and want to chat about it, but I can see in their eyes that they think I've made a grave mistake. Perhaps they think I would make a great new ministry project for them. 
I'm getting to the point where I don't really want to be involved with homeschool groups anymore. 
kjohnson wrote:
| I highly recommend it for Lent. It's so nicely broken up into 40 readings. And even though it's prayed publicly in only the Eastern Churches during Lent, the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete is a treasure and since it is pre-schism it is the common heritage of the Universal Church. |
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Perfect. I'll pull it out this week. Thanks for the reminder about this book!
kjohnson wrote:
| I used to try way too hard with my fil. Now I just answer his questions in as simple a way as possible and go by the motto, "much prayer, few words." I've seen more fruit from that. Nothing is a better witness to those who think you're simply deceived than for them to experience the warmth of the Holy Spirit from you. |
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I agree, but what do you do in situations where all the family members are talking about their church activities and everyone is happy as long as you don't mention anything about your church? And when you do, the room gets all awkward and silent?
kjohnson wrote:
If the canonist defaults back to the ritual status of Latin Rite, then the paperwork is a nightmare to have our new baby baptized, chrismated and communed this spring in the Byz. Catholic Church. I think they've made the paperwork harder to get through to discourage Roman Catholics from coming to an Eastern Catholic Church to avoid the confirmation prep required in the Latin Rite. In our case, we're there all the time and even our 3 year old has been confirmed and receives the Eucharist each Sunday, so we really want the consistency with all 5 of the children. But most importantly, I would be devastated if my newborn couldn't receive the Eucharist. It's one of my favorite practices of the Eastern Churches. It's beautiful.
Our priest is working hard on it for us. I know our baby and I will be churched at 40 days. Father said that wasn't a problem, but hopefully the baby will be able to receive the Sacraments of Initiation the following week. |
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Is it a paperwork and ceremonial process to move from Latin rite to Byzantine rite? I do see what you mean about avoiding confirmation prep. We lived in a state where the confirmation prep process was so horrible that it was common for families to cross the border into Mexico where Latin rite churches still do all the sacraments with newborns.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Lissa
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Bookswithtea wrote:
kjohnson wrote:
| I used to try way too hard with my fil. Now I just answer his questions in as simple a way as possible and go by the motto, "much prayer, few words." I've seen more fruit from that. Nothing is a better witness to those who think you're simply deceived than for them to experience the warmth of the Holy Spirit from you. |
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I agree, but what do you do in situations where all the family members are talking about their church activities and everyone is happy as long as you don't mention anything about your church? And when you do, the room gets all awkward and silent? |
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Books, I have to admit I *love* those kinds of moments. It has happened to me more often re homeschooling than Catholicism, but either way, I truly love being able to deflate that awkward silence with an enthusiastic response about our own faith or philosophy. It's hard to explain in a post, I think, but I've seen it happen so many times that when I start chattering eagerly about what I love about Catholicism or homeschooling or attachment parenting or the family bed, even if everyone in the room *disagrees* with my position, the chill goes away because they can see that I'm passionate and excited and happy about the choice I've made. Maybe it's just that I come across as naive or young (though I am not so young anymore!!), but whatever the reason, it is such a joy to feel the atmosphere change. I think that if a person speaks with joy and passion about her beliefs, people are generally respectful, even if they still believe you are mistaken.
Of course, there is always the possibility that someone will try to turn the discussion into a "someone's gotta win, and it won't be you" debate--but even then, if you remain cheerful, the debate may be fruitful. Even if you don't "win" it at the time, you never know what seeds you have planted.
The only times I've seen debates go sour is when I allow myself to get emotional, heated, or sarcastic. Cheerfulness works such wonders, I don't know why I ever give in to anything else.
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kjohnson
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I think the difference lies in the way that it affects you. If you are blessed like Lissa, and receive joy from responding in such situations and are able to do so without it disturbing your peace of soul, then I think it is safe to assume that God wants you to speak up. On the other hand, if entering into these discussions robs your peace and puts you into an occasion of sin (you judge the questioner, you become angry, you become upset) then you should follow the example of Jesus before Pilate and keep silence.
You don't have to be the Catholic in charge of explaining the Faith to Protestants. Maybe you are the Catholic who God wants to demonstrate the Faith to Protestants by the example of your life. Quite honestly, that is much louder than words. Many can argue and debate an intellectual case (even the demons), but few can demonstrate it from the example of their life.
Think of the meekness that Jesus spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount. Meekness is the spiritual attitude of being content with both honor or dishonor. When we are meek (which I am not) God has given the grace of mastery over our passions. It's not weakness, but strength under control. We have to continually pray for this gift, but if we are unceasing in prayer and keep the presence of God then we will quickly be able to discern when we should respond and when we should keep quiet. If responding causes us to loose control of our strength, then we should not respond. And if we can respond with a spirit of peace, then it's time to talk.
What Lissa describes above is beautiful because it brings joy to her and alleviates tension in the atmosphere. I think the best spiritual barometer we have is peace of soul. Anything that robs our peace is something we should run from. Peace is the fruit of the Holy Spirit and in the spiritual life we should re-route our passions of anger to work for us as a jealous guarding of that peace. Some of us have had that peace taken away for a time to demonstrate the palpable void. Once it returns you guard it like the pearl of great price. But the whole process is a daily falling on your face and getting right back up. And there is no reason to despair when we fall. (I've grown quite accustomed to it!) Saints are the ones who continue to get back up.
In the situation with your family, just don't enter into the conversation if it makes everyone uncomfortable. If they want your silence, then give it to them. Jesus offered a strong example in His silence. He manifested His glory in revealing His humility. He knew that if He argued with Pilate or the Sanhedrin, they would have still crucified Him. There was no point in talking. Their hearts were too hard to be benefited by His words. So He left them a stronger example by keeping silence.
It's my experience that if the people around you exhibit discomfort and you know that they don't want to hear what you have to say, then that's a sign that your example is going to be stronger than your words. If someone is not open to hearing, then more than likely more words are going to further harden their hearts.
I'm dealing with this a lot right now from both Orthodox and Catholic godfamilies. And it's something you have to figure out as you go. It's very hard and I've failed miserably (and continue to fail) more times than I've succeeded. But most importantly, you cannot care what others think of you. If they think you're a ministry project or gravely mistaken, so what? Be sad and concerned for their souls that they are judging you and give the rest to God. Don't allow their sin to cause you to stumble. I have this mental image of the Evil One playing us like a set of dominoes. He taps one and as it falls, it knocks down another. Don't give him the pleasure. The sooner we can figure out his evil tricks, the sooner we can ruin his fun at play.
About the ritual change, it's just paperwork. I do know a mom in my Roman Catholic homeschool group that once lived in California and drove to Mexico to have all of her children confirmed.
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Katherine
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Rachel May
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Just wanted to say, I'm looking forward to all the Lent posts. This is very very interesting.
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Rachel
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Lissa
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kjohnson wrote:
I think the difference lies in the way that it affects you. If you are blessed like Lissa, and receive joy from responding in such situations and are able to do so without it disturbing your peace of soul, then I think it is safe to assume that God wants you to speak up. On the other hand, if entering into these discussions robs your peace and puts you into an occasion of sin (you judge the questioner, you become angry, you become upset) then you should follow the example of Jesus before Pilate and keep silence.
You don't have to be the Catholic in charge of explaining the Faith to Protestants. Maybe you are the Catholic who God wants to demonstrate the Faith to Protestants by the example of your life. Quite honestly, that is much louder than words. Many can argue and debate an intellectual case (even the demons), but few can demonstrate it from the example of their life.
Think of the meekness that Jesus spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount. Meekness is the spiritual attitude of being content with both honor or dishonor. When we are meek (which I am not) God has given the grace of mastery over our passions. It's not weakness, but strength under control. We have to continually pray for this gift, but if we are unceasing in prayer and keep the presence of God then we will quickly be able to discern when we should respond and when we should keep quiet. If responding causes us to loose control of our strength, then we should not respond. And if we can respond with a spirit of peace, then it's time to talk.
What Lissa describes above is beautiful because it brings joy to her and alleviates tension in the atmosphere. I think the best spiritual barometer we have is peace of soul. Anything that robs our peace is something we should run from. Peace is the fruit of the Holy Spirit and in the spiritual life we should re-route our passions of anger to work for us as a jealous guarding of that peace. Some of us have had that peace taken away for a time to demonstrate the palpable void. Once it returns you guard it like the pearl of great price. But the whole process is a daily falling on your face and getting right back up. And there is no reason to despair when we fall. (I've grown quite accustomed to it!) Saints are the ones who continue to get back up.
In the situation with your family, just don't enter into the conversation if it makes everyone uncomfortable. If they want your silence, then give it to them. Jesus offered a strong example in His silence. He manifested His glory in revealing His humility. He knew that if He argued with Pilate or the Sanhedrin, they would have still crucified Him. There was no point in talking. Their hearts were too hard to be benefited by His words. So He left them a stronger example by keeping silence. |
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Katherine, I am so glad you wrote this. I posted before Mass this morning and then sat in church thinking "Lissa you idiot, just because YOU like those kind of encounters doesn't mean *everyone* does." I could hear Jane Bennet in my head: "But, Lizzy, not everyone is the SAME!"
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kjohnson
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Lissa wrote:
| Katherine, I am so glad you wrote this. I posted before Mass this morning and then sat in church thinking "Lissa you idiot, just because YOU like those kind of encounters doesn't mean *everyone* does." I could hear Jane Bennet in my head: "But, Lizzy, not everyone is the SAME!" |
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Bookswithtea
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kjohnson wrote:
| I think the difference lies in the way that it affects you. |
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You are probably right. It does disturb my peace. I do my best to avoid these situations, to try to speak without words. When it happens, I often feel cornered and like I have no choice but to speak. But you know what? I never thought about the Pilate example before. I may just try that next time.
kjohnson wrote:
| Think of the meekness that Jesus spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount. Meekness is the spiritual attitude of being content with both honor or dishonor. When we are meek (which I am not) God has given the grace of mastery over our passions. It's not weakness, but strength under control. |
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This is a great point.
kjohnson wrote:
| I have this mental image of the Evil One playing us like a set of dominoes. He taps one and as it falls, it knocks down another. Don't give him the pleasure. The sooner we can figure out his evil tricks, the sooner we can ruin his fun at play. |
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Is it my imagination or does Orthodox theology speak more about the Evil One than Roman Catholic theology? Maybe its just who I am reading! I do agree with you that we are looking at two sides of the same coin. Sometimes I think reading Orthodox theology helps me to understand Latin theology better.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Paula in MN
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| What frustrates me these days is that I am getting tired of being the Catholic who explains and helps protestants to understand that Catholics are Christians too. |
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When I am in this situation, I POLITELY remind them that Christianity pretty much started with us Catholics....
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Paula
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kjohnson
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| Is it my imagination or does Orthodox theology speak more about the Evil One than Roman Catholic theology? Maybe its just who I am reading! I do agree with you that we are looking at two sides of the same coin. Sometimes I think reading Orthodox theology helps me to understand Latin theology better. |
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I don't know exactly how I'd compare the emphasis on the Evil One to Roman Catholicism since that emphasis is definitely there in the West too. But there is certainly a clear understanding of evil being a person in Orthodoxy. In fact, the common English translation of the Our Father includes the phrase, "deliver us from evil." In the original Greek, the phrase literally reads, "deliver us from the Evil One."
If there is a difference in western and eastern theology on this matter, it probably lies in the emphasis in the west on St. Anselm's language of a substitutionary debt paid to the Father and the eastern emphasis on the sacrifice of Christ being a rescue mission from our enslavement to the Evil One.
But yes, the Orthodox are fully aware of the Evil One so much that it is customary to spit when his presence is felt. Those spitting scenes in My Big, Fat, Greek Wedding were pretty accurate. And yes, I've had an old Greek woman (yia yia) spit on me out of love.
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Katherine
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kjohnson
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Oh, and I forgot to mention, that our Byzantine priest just left after bringing me the Eucharist and praying the blessing for expectant mothers and happily announced that we've managed to confuse all the canonists and our baby can be received with all 3 Sacraments in the Byzantine Church. 
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Katherine
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Paula in MN
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Hip Hip Hooray!!!!
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Paula
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Bookswithtea
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kjohnson wrote:
Those spitting scenes in My Big, Fat, Greek Wedding were pretty accurate. And yes, I've had an old Greek woman (yia yia) spit on me out of love. |
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Love that movie!
So happy for you about your baby!
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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marihalojen
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Thank you for this fabulous thread, Katherine! Such a lot here that I'm clueless about.
kjohnson wrote:
There is a reference thread on Catholic Answers describing the 23 self-governing churches here
It explains the difference between the terms "rite" and "self-governing" church (and is also sure to make your head spin!) |
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This was really interesting, we have Ethiopian Orthodox friends and it was neat to read up a bit on them, though my head is spinning right now, I'll tell you!
Congrats on your happy news!
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The Mari Hal-O-Jen
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KellyJ
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I'd like to add that there are some Eastern Catholic churches that follow the Julian calendar. I've known someone in Canada whose particular Ukranian Catholic parish goes by the Julian calendar. Not all do, but his does.
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kjohnson
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KellyJ wrote:
| I'd like to add that there are some Eastern Catholic churches that follow the Julian calendar. I've known someone in Canada whose particular Ukranian Catholic parish goes by the Julian calendar. Not all do, but his does. |
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From what I understand, many Eastern Catholics use the Julian calendar. I think it's more of a matter of tradition. But for many Orthodox the calendar becomes a tense issue because the Gregorian calendar was the work of a Pope of Rome. So for some Eastern Orthodox, moving to the Gregorian calendar (I've heard it referred to as the "Papist Calendar") is caving to Rome.
Our Byzantine Catholic church is on the Gregorian calendar even though it follows the Orthodox Typicon. I think the Orthodox Church of Finland uses the Gregorian calendar. Our former Orthodox church was on the Revised Julian Calendar (all the dates were Gregorian except the dating of Pascha). Supposedly, under the revised system, the 2 calendars will stay in sync for the next 8,000 years.
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Katherine
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: How many rites?
