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MaryM
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 3:10pm | IP Logged
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I share Janet’s problem – I think about the discussions here way too much, so a lot of my computer time is spent in emotional use of time not necessarily actually being productive with computer time. I can spend so much time thinking about what I “would” write and by the time I actually go to write there are 12 more posts in the thread – and I can’t make myself write before reading them – I get behind again. It’s been that way with this thread. I’ve wanted to chime in from the beginning but hesitated because it is emotional.
I tend to stay out of the “emotional” conversations – in that sense I will admit that I’m not very real in that part of my involvement on the forums the way I would be in person. Like Nicole expressed, I would much rather talk in person for those topics – reading body language, ability to clarify and smooth over misunderstandings more immediately (remember I take soooooooo long to actually get it written). People in person have personal experience with you and put what you say into context of that experience.
I tend not to participate in conversations where:
-I hold very strong opinions and worry that I won’t sound balanced
-the topic is very personal and judgments are easily perceived
-there is high likelihood of misunderstanding or hurt feelings
-I feel I am in the minority and don’t want to stand out
I am more comfortable with the “facts, ma'am, just the facts” – so that is why I am drawn to the subject oriented threads.
Now par for the course this conversation is probably about over and I chime in.  I have about a thousand things I want to say (hyperbole ) but will try to focus on only a few most pressing to me.
I know how alone it can feel to say something that isn't what the majority of people are posting or expressing so for that reason I voice my thoughts that I feel at times like both Irene and Natalia – not that their experiences/feelings are exactly the same or like mine, but there are similarities.
First I want to say, I find this to truly be a special list - everyone here has a great love of family and faith and I believe have nothing but the most honorable and charitable intentions. But it is a human list, so human emotions are still always going to be present. While there is no intention to create an exclusive group and the clique description has been summarily rejected - the fact is that even without actual intent what looks like special camaraderie can create exclusivity - at least that is how it can be perceived from the outside by those who don't consider themselves part of that group. It would be easy to perceive that there is "in-group" here. My opinion is that blogs and the familiarity people have with each other through blogs has increased this sense of an in-crowd (which still existed without it). There are other dynamics present as well like more folks who have initially gotten to know each other well through blogs then join the forum. Technology changes - dynamics change.
For me it's like going to the party and everyone acknowledges you and is friendly, but it is clear that you are not one of the BFFs (best friends forever) who have outside plans and inside jokes. It's not going to be perceived that way by all members, but for many members it can. A lot of the behaviors/actions that can lead to those feelings have been mentioned. There are various factors that affect how people might feel, like different personality types, level of involvement, or level of insecurity. I don’t know that anyone has to change anything, but it is important to realize people do have these perceptions and they are real.
So it's not so much that anyone is consciously being exclusive but they just enjoy certain company especially and that comes across. Could it be wanting to feel that deep sense of really belonging and wanting to have “those people” acknowledge me in that special way that feels exclusive – I know it is for me? I don’t want to feel that way – it feels weak – but then again I am. While I realize I do post a lot – maybe incessantly like Molly mentioned – sheer volume doesn’t necessarily make one feel a part.
(And there is a certain someone who practically bends over backwards to make so many people feel special and acknowledged and should not beat herself up for any of this though she will probably try to take personal responsibility for something that is not her issue. )
When Irene mentioned the loss of participation on the forums from bloggers that is something I have felt also. I felt it early and experienced being the lone voice a couple times this spring/summer in saying something about the effect of blogs on the forum experience. Everyone was courteous in responding but I felt that people considered my feelings were unfounded. There was reassurance that bloggers still came to the forums regularly (and many do - but many admittedly do not and they and their wisdom and creativity are missed). (And everyone was always concsious of asking if non bloggers wanted to participate in the fairs.) Those who do still come often focus on the discussions in Fireside chat and the prayers requests -the more personal and chatty places that a blog does not lend itself to for the idea sharing. I feel the loss is most present in the other threads where the type of brainstorming on ideas and adding to resources doesn’t happen to the same degree it used to. Even though I would like too, I can't personally dictate where people spend their computer time.  The give and take kind of discussion doesn’t happen on blogs. The comments are more of an acknowledgement type of response – very few add ideas to the beautiful finished product or their own personal stories on a fourm that does seem so much more about the individual’s experience. It can be pointed out where some blog posts were linked to the forum and generated tons of follow-up and additional brainstorming. But the reality is that is less common than it once was. I think that is why I like the forum discussions – here the “playing field feels more even,” so to speak, if that makes sense.
I actually feel like I shouldn’t say any of this, since here I am a traitor to the non-blog world – I very recently started a blog after resisting (I’m stubborn) for a long time! But my weakness got the better of me because I wanted to feel like I belonged more and have a place to post pictures - and besides I didn't spend nearly enough time on the computer .
I hate this - I'm having so much trouble saying what I want without seeming either harsh or pathetic. This is exactly the type of post I would sit on and write and rewrite for days and perseverate over every word then never actually send - but I'm going to do it ...... I'm...really...going...to push....the ...."post...reply"....button....now....really....
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Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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Lissa
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 5:02pm | IP Logged
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Mary, I'm glad you did speak up. These are very good things for all of us, especially the bloggers, to hear.
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Lissa
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Leonie
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 5:36pm | IP Logged
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Mary, thanks for your comments - I know I tend to have times when I blog and times when I contribute more to email or to communities like 4 real. Your thoughts are very helpful.
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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marihalojen
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 8:07pm | IP Logged
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I have a bad connection today, wind is blowing, the boat is rocking, so WiFi is sporadic and I’ve been trying to post a response on this thread since last night. Hope it goes through now…
Willa wrote:
| I would think that closing off blog comments would close off options. Some people visit your blogs who might comment there, but wouldn't want to comment on here, for whatever reason. Blogs can be evangelization wayposts. They reach a different though overlapping audience than this forum and that is a good thing. |
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The local IRL homeschooling group is a mix of fallen away Catholics, other Christians and an occasional Buddhist. But here is the point, these local ladies visit my blog and through my blogroll visit your blogs too. As Willa has said, your blogs reach them as they would never dream of coming here and I just had a very long conversation at our Park Day regarding how shocked they were at how Catholics actually have a “personal relationship with God” and “read the Bible” as was evidenced by you and your blogs. Such a change from previous meetings where snide anti-Catholic comments and misconceptions were the norm! In fact the most Evangelical of them all brought Alice’s Epiphany Tea as a surprise for us all. I was absolutely floored. I still am. I wish we had a jaw dropped emoticon! When she pulled a picnic basket out of the back of her van and casually said she brought Alice’s Epiphany Tea for us…
As far as non-bloggers feeling left out, I tend to feel that the boards are extensive enough that certain people will congregate at certain areas. For instance, my baby was born 12 years ago and I really have to think a sibling for her is probably not going to come along any time soon. So I feel really out of the newborn baby loop, (not to mention the large Catholic Family loop!). But that doesn’t mean new moms can’t chat it up just because I feel left out. The one time I let it bother me enough to post here about it I received such warm support from other only children moms and moms only homeschooling one, that I feel much better about being here with only Marianna.
Regarding non-bloggers participation in the Loveliness Fairs and other things like Thankful Thursdays in November or Dawn’s Field Days, each one has welcomed non-bloggers via email submissions but I wonder if the non-bloggers didn’t get the message as they didn’t follow the thread where the invitation was issued? You know, thinking it was exclusively for bloggers.
I’m afraid this is a super long post, I keep coming back and adding more and before I can post I lose the WiFi (hurray for the copy button!) so please forgive the disjointedness and length! I hope it all makes sense in the long run…
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~Jennifer
Mother to Mariannna, age 13
The Mari Hal-O-Jen
SSR = Sailing, Snorkling, Reading
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Helen
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 9:42pm | IP Logged
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Before I read this thread, I was planning to make January's Composer post to my blog and then an abbreviated post here at 4Real.
Here's my reasoning before this thread:
I was thinking of keeping to the facts, keeping the 4Real message short by just listing the works with a little information and then if anyone is interested to hear more about why our family likes ELgar, they could turn to my blog for more.
By going to my blog, I feel like I'm saying,
"I don't want to take up too much of your time here. I'm new to this information as well and I would never want you to think that I am a show off. It is a grace that I don't have TV connection and I am forced to look on every shelf of the library desperate for something to watch on TV. I can't take the credit for this. I do not want to force you to read everything I've discovered, but if YOU would like to hear more, you are very welcome to visit at my blog. And it is much easier to make links and use photos over at my blog."
So, what should I do?
Do I make a double posting?
Here's another problem I face. Maybe others face it as well, especially here where so many are carrying heavy burdens and truly living and fighting to live holy lives.
We are in a spiritual battle at all times. When one chooses to live a good life, every day, unseen forces and temptations try to strike us down. They try to wear away at our resolve to continue with the Christian lifestyle. On my worst days of feeling completely indadequate, I say to myself,
"Boy, I must have done something really good that I don't know about." And then it is time to pick up where I left off, and continue with the day.
So, many times, my problem with posting stems from this spiritual problem, "Who cares about what I am going to say? I better just not say anything at all."
This problem surfaces again with the composer study. Does anyone really want to hear how excited I am about the Elgar Cello Concerto and how utterly Catholic in tone I believe it to be? So, I turn to my blog, put it down there, feeling like there are no strings attached. (No one is forced to come to my blog - but I guess I feel that there is a certain expectation here at 4Real and can I meet that expectation?)
Also, for me the links are more time consuming here and I don't think there is a "draft" button where I could keep my links. As I search for things and find good sites, it is easy to open the draft blog page and keep the links in there.
Please, I hope I'm not rude to say,
Here's the link to the composer study
Maybe I could have some advice?
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Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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Helen
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 9:52pm | IP Logged
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Just to be totally upfront again -
I wish I hadn't made that last post.
It happens almost every time I make a post - almost anywhere. But, I just ignore that feeling and go on.
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Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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Bridget
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 10:09pm | IP Logged
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You wouldn't believe how many times I have written a post and then not sent it because I thought it sounded too dumb.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Karen E.
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 10:11pm | IP Logged
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I'm late to this thread (and how sick are we of hearing me say that??) 
I was up last night around midnight reading the whole thing, but then didn't have the energy to respond coherently. Today, we were baking for a 4-H meeting, getting ready for a 4-H meeting, attending a 4-H meeting, recovering from a 4-H meeting, and then getting various children fed and situated into a sleepover with best friends. Whew. 
Okay -- the main thing I zeroed in on here is that I'm one of the bloggers guilty of allowing my blog to take time away from this forum. I recently took on moderation here of the Narration, History and Picture Book boards, but before I did, I stopped and thought, "Oh, no! I've been an awful participant lately! Am I worthy? Am I qualified? Do they even want me?"
When I went to my holy hour and prayed about it last month, I took with me a book by Fr. Hardon, a mini Ignatian spiritual retreat. St. Ignatius urges us to look at people and things in our lives and ask God to guide us concerning where they fall in one of these four categories:
Things/people God wants us to enjoy
Things/people God wants us to endure (or suffer)
Things/people God wants us to remove (because they lead us to sin)
Things/people God wants us to sacrifice (willingly give up, even though they don't lead us to sin)
I thought that was such a beautiful help to discernment in so many areas!
And, it helped me to discern that this forum is a priority, and is something God wants me to enjoy, not remove. I went into my prayer time *thinking* : "I probably already spend too much time on the computer ... I should NOT take on anything more ...."
I came out of my prayer time *knowing* that it's a matter of setting priorities, and that this board is one of my online priorities.
I homeschool ... therefore, I NEED this board.  You all are the best support in the universe.
I write ... therefore I blog. But, the paid writing I do and the blog are not necessarily dependent on one another and I can control the amount of blogging I do. It doesn't have to be daily. And, I don't want it to harm my best system of support.
As some others have said, I tend to think of my blog as a place people can visit if they want to .... I tell stories there that I think would bore people here, or be overkill, or that it would sound as if it's all about me, me, me if I posted them here (I guess at my blog I feel entitled to make it about me, me, me....)
My point is that they're different, separate types of communication, but *my* responsibility is still to determine how much time I can devote to each place ....
It isn't necessarily "blog vs. board" but it is a matter of not allowing one type of communication to eclipse the other.
Irene, I'm not presuming that you were referring to me, but when I read your comments, which I'm very glad you expressed, I stood accused. And, I felt grace at work ... so many little messages have been coming my way that have been telling me to be sure I'm keeping my life in balance, in EVERY way. So, thank you, Irene and Mary and everyone else who said/felt those kinds of things.
And thank you Natalia, and everyone else who has spoken up on this thread.
I see this kind of discussion as very helpful, and as always, I love the kindness and charity with which we all try to approach these things.
I love you women! (And men!) Is there a trophy icon? You all deserve more than applause, but here's some anyway.
Love from a sister in Christ,
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God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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MaryM
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 10:29pm | IP Logged
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And I wish I hadn't made mine, Helen. I knew I should have followed my unwritten (actually now written ) rules of posting. I hope it didn't contribute to you having doubts about where to post the composer study. I think you should go ahead as planned - put a skeleton posting in the Color and Cacaphony thread and have everyone get specific info from your blog.
So much of what was posted in the composer study each month this past year were outside links anyway that focused on the composer. How wonderful that we will actually have a review and compilation from someone of strong faith who is presenting the material in that way. As long as we have a thread and it is more than just the link to the post then people will have a place to discuss and add to the study.
And you are right it is much easier to create links in a place where you can save them.
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Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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Taffy
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 10:57pm | IP Logged
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I wasn't going to post on this topic as many have already said what I would have and much more eloquently.
However, I DO want to comment on your post Jennifer. What a wonderful testimony to the evangelizing power of this group! Six years ago, I was very shaky in my faith and wanting to explore protestantism some more. This wonderful group of women (and my husband) have been absolutely instrumental in my remaining and becoming a stronger Catholic. The education I have received from you all regarding matters of faith is most gratefully received. And your example of nurturing your families act as my mentor.
I often feel unworthy of contributing here as I am so lacking in so many ways. But, I've been so helped and so grateful to you all that I try and share the little I know. And I've been welcomed warmly every single time. The blogs are wonderful, and the posts are great. I do wish that I could feel as part of the inner circle but am OK with not being so.
I echo all of the positive comments made about this group and also share the sentiment that many have expressed regarding how much of a positive influence this group has been to me and to my life.
THANK YOU.
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Susan
Mom to 5 on earth and 1 in heaven
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Courtney
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 11:27pm | IP Logged
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I'll keep this short: I don't contribute much but have gained more than you'll ever know from this board. Without you all, I would feel totally alone in this journey.
As a funny aside, last night I was up late reading this thread, then the thread about Lissa's books being abridged. I then went and ordered each one! So, last night I dreamed that I had moved to California and had met Lissa live and in person! I was so excited to have met someone whom I already felt I knew!
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Courtney in Texas
Wife to Mike since 3/94 
Mom to Candace 10/97,Christopher 4/00 and Connor 11/11
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alicegunther
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 11:47pm | IP Logged
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marihalojen wrote:
The local IRL homeschooling group is a mix of fallen away Catholics, other Christians and an occasional Buddhist. But here is the point, these local ladies visit my blog and through my blogroll visit your blogs too. As Willa has said, your blogs reach them as they would never dream of coming here and I just had a very long conversation at our Park Day regarding how shocked they were at how Catholics actually have a “personal relationship with God” and “read the Bible” as was evidenced by you and your blogs. Such a change from previous meetings where snide anti-Catholic comments and misconceptions were the norm! In fact the most Evangelical of them all brought Alice’s Epiphany Tea as a surprise for us all. I was absolutely floored. I still am. I wish we had a jaw dropped emoticon! When she pulled a picnic basket out of the back of her van and casually said she brought Alice’s Epiphany Tea for us…
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My jaw is dropping right now. Thank you for sharing that, Jennifer!
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Love, Alice
mother of seven!
   
Cottage Blessings
Brew yourself a cup of tea, and come for a visit!
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teachingmom
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Karen E. wrote:
| Irene, I'm not presuming that you were referring to me, but when I read your comments, which I'm very glad you expressed, I stood accused. And, I felt grace at work ... so many little messages have been coming my way that have been telling me to be sure I'm keeping my life in balance, in EVERY way. |
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Karen,
While I was just expressing general feelings, I must confess that I've missed you here. And I'm so glad you wrote about your soul searching regarding where to spend your time online. And I'm really glad more of it will be here with us all in the future because you are a real blessing! 
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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teachingmom
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| Posted: Jan 07 2007 at 1:06am | IP Logged
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A few more thoughts --
Jennifer, I love your story, and you bring up a really good point about the value of blogs in evangelizing. I had noticed that sort of thing in my limited blog-hopping recently and had been amazed at how it seems that blogs are becoming a way for God to bring some women into contact with examples of a living Catholic faith for the first time. That's one reason why I agree with everyone who discouraged Elizabeth from turning off the "comments" on the blog. Who knows what may result from the interaction between a faithful Catholic blogger and a searching commenter?
And finally, I thought I'd add a revelation I've had regarding this whole thing in my life. Although I almost always enjoy time I spend reading blogs, I rarely do it, compared to my time spent here. In reading through this thread and pondering the topic a bit, I realized that there is one very simple reason that I don't enjoy the blogs as the vast majority of you do. Dial-up!
While I don't find that dial-up limits my ability to enjoy the boards at all, it slows down my ability to read the blogs unbelievably. There are times that I click on a link to read about an idea and wait . . . and wait . . . and wait to see the great pictures that illustrate the blog post . . . only to find that that blog post has a link to someone else's great idea. Which I click on . . . and wait . . . and wait . . . and wait . . . . Well, you get the picture. (Pun intended!) So, maybe I am biased against blogs in a way I couldn't verbalize before. But it is my problem (or internet limitation) and not the fault of the blogs themselves.
(Feeling like this sounds dumb, but hitting "Post Reply" like the rest of you.)
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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alicegunther
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| Posted: Jan 07 2007 at 1:11am | IP Logged
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It doesn't sound the least bit dumb, Irene!
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Love, Alice
mother of seven!
Cottage Blessings
Brew yourself a cup of tea, and come for a visit!
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Karen E.
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teachingmom wrote:
While I was just expressing general feelings, I must confess that I've missed you here. And I'm so glad you wrote about your soul searching regarding where to spend your time online. And I'm really glad more of it will be here with us all in the future because you are a real blessing! |
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So are you, Irene. Hugs back to you.
And about the dial-up ... Oh, my goodness. I forget what a luxury my cable connection is. I sometimes feel decadent about having it. Dial-up alone helps to nicely limit a person's time online due to those very frustrations you talked about, Irene.
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God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Karen E.
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teachingmom wrote:
A few more thoughts --
Jennifer, I love your story, and you bring up a really good point about the value of blogs in evangelizing. |
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This is a great point. I, too, have Protestant friends and family who read my blog. One Evangelical mom, whom I love, told me last spring that she'd never given any thought to Lent and to preparation for Easter, but that she was loving all that she was reading on my blog. Grace at work!
teachingmom wrote:
(Feeling like this sounds dumb, but hitting "Post Reply" like the rest of you.) |
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I agree with Alice -- it doesn't sound dumb at all, nor have any of you sounded dumb. But, I think we all have lots of posts that we fear "sound dumb" (I know I do) but when we hit "send" anyway, we're expressing something quite beautiful:
Trust.
We trust friends with our fears, our venting, our ideas, our feelings, our struggles and our hopes and dreams. We do it in "real life" and we do it here (which is also "real life.")
So, everytime someone says, "This sounds dumb, but I'm sending it anyway," I love them even more.
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God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Martha
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May I say, Helen, I completely agree with you and have often felt the exact same way?
For what it's worth, I don't see this as blog vs forum either. For me, they go very much together.
I will say I'm glad to hear it seems many of you don't mind it when posters "double up", by posting here or at least linking to their blog. I felt so weird doing that. My blog allows me to ruminate over my words. Here it's either hit "post" or don't. As chatty as I am here, you have no idea how often I don't post because I fear I may sound too harsh, silly, ignorant, or my view may simply be not welcomed. (This last is VERY rare here btw! I have never been on a board as willing to agree to disagree in favor of kindness as this board. And I have been on LOTS of boards. )
Also, I'm an extremely visual person. Blogs give me insights that this forum cannot. (A picture is worth a 1000 words!) This forum gives me ideas and feedback that many blogs don't.
I don't read other blogs all that often. I hate surfing the net. Usually I have 2 or 3 blogs that I peek into on a regular basis, but most of the time I go to a blog because someone at this forum says so-and-so has something interesting at their blog.
Completely off topic, but I was wondering if maybe it would be nice to have a forum for those with "onlys"? Those home schooling only 1 child, either the last chick in the nest or those with only 1 child. I have 3 dear friends who often are at a loss for support hs-ing an only and can see a need for this be welcomed. As Catholics we tend to assume otherwise, but there are some very devoted catholics home schooling only 1 child that could use practical support for their particuliar situation, imho.
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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Lissa
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I want to thank you all for an extremely fruitful conversation! I am so glad people felt free to voice concerns, and others responded with such respect and grace. That right there is what I love about this forum.
I got a chuckle yesterday out of the realization that my blog is actually older (by a whole whopping week, LOL) than these boards. But certainly my participation here and on CCM before the forum has always come in waves, depending on work schedule and babies and other things.
Now that my hubby doesn't work at home anymore, my evenings are reserved for him, so my bedtime catch-up-on-the-boards time doesn't exist anymore. And usually, what computer time I do have has to be reserved for work-related stuff (which for me, includes my blogs). It is much easier to find time to READ here than to write responses, eager as I usually am to chime in; and I have often wished you could know how I am sitting here reading and learning and cheering and praying in response to your words. You ladies mean a great deal to me, and even in my quieter periods I am still here loving you just as hard. Thank you, all of you, for the time you devote to making this community a warm and rich and nourishing place to be.
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Lissa
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Natalia
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1343
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| Posted: Jan 07 2007 at 4:42pm | IP Logged
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Helen wrote:
| So, many times, my problem with posting stems from this spiritual problem, "Who cares about what I am going to say? I better just not say anything at all." |
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I know what you mean Helen. Many times I don't post things because I feel that nobody would care. But the truth is if we are to be a community we need to get passed those feelings. We have to trust that the people here do care for those little inconsequential details that are the make up of my daily life. I know that people care about the big trials and the big questions but I would like to think that people here would also care about the simpler things.
Natalia
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Are online communities 4real?
