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Bridget
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We only roll our eyes at ourselves or a situation, never someone else who joins in the conversation. (But I do like the little roll eyes emoticon.)
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Willa
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Natalia wrote:
This are just some random thoughts:
I wonder what people look for when they come to this forum. I think some people might be looking for support in their homeschool and they don't need to establish a relationship to get that. They are other people that might be looking for support AND friendship. They are people that have taken the risk and found friends. They are some that have suffered and shared their struggles and found friends through their prayers. Others have been afraid to jump in. Some have been satisfied with the relationships as they happen publicly on the forum. Others have taken the relatioship off the forum and into real life.
For those that would like to have a deeper relationship I wonder how can that happen? I wonder how we can get to know each other better here. Is that possible? Just thinking aloud... |
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I'm just thinking aloud, too. I think you raise good questions but I don't have the answers. I was wondering if something like Pope John Paul's "cell" ideas would work with this. I can't find a link or anything, but I vaguely remember reading that he recommended forming communities to support devout Catholic living and then dividing them further as they got larger so that there were sub-groups. Originally I think Catholic Charlotte Mason WAS such a community, but its very success perhaps has made it so large that there is more danger of newcomers feel lost and anonymous in the group.
But I think another piece factors in here.
I have felt uncomfortable with blogging even though I have a blog (two!) and enjoy visiting others'. I can't put my uneasiness into words but I feel that blogging is more of a negative pull for me than this forum. Blogging is like an easy instant web site. You can put articles and visual showcases and journal entries and they are so easily archived and accessible. This is a wonderful resource. However, there is a different mentality -- and I feel it has a different energy -- than this forum. Again, I can't seem to articulate it well and it is obviously not like that for everyone.
Perhaps part of the concern some people are expressing is that when you join the 4real board nowadays, you almost have to sign up for the blog element as well. In other words, even if you don't enjoy the blog format much, so much of the 4real energy is about blogging that you have to buy into it in order to feel like a "real" part of the community. Not literally HAVE to, of course, but there is that feeling of wanting to give in just to be like everyone else -- "part of the group".
Then it has the possibility to feel like a bit of a beauty pageant or audition --the format of a blog is similar to a personality cult, just because it is geared around someone blogging and then a bunch of comments. I am not talking about anyone's individual blogs, I hope that is clear, but about the very nature of the format. It is a bit less dialogue-oriented, less give and take, as others have pointed out. We can dialogue across blogs of course, and we do, but the dialogue is different -- more like each person jumping upon their own soapbox.
Then also there is a potential for the "fad" or trend type of thinking. The blog format lends itself to new ideas "sweeping" across the sphere, which is nice when it lights a fire or encourages someone to try something new in their homeschool, but it may also take away peoples' own energy and wisdom or at least feel like a pull to live up to some standard that may not completely suit their homeschool.
I don't know -- just groping for words here. I was hoping that writing it out would make it clearer to my mind -- works sometimes! -- but it doesn't seem to have happened! 
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Willa
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Rebecca
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I enjoy getting together with IRL friends but do not do so very often. I have a couple of friends who are extremely patient and tolerant of my eccentricity and all the odd learning tangents that I seem to travel. I am one of those people who, when learning about something I am interested in (say birthing, nursing, knitting or Montessori), cannot seem to talk about much else, therefore turning off anyone who is not interested in that topic. I do not do this intentionally, in fact I really try not to but I end up doing it nonetheless.
I think local women think I am really independent because I do not get together very often but the reality is that I am somewhat reclusive because I am better able to keep all the necessary domestic and educational balls in the air when I stay home. When I am gone from our home even one day a week, I begin to fall apart at the seams, as does my home.
This forum gives me the support that I long for but it is on a timetable that I can adjust according to my family's needs. I can check the active topics at 11:00 at night and respond when the kids are asleep rather than trying to juggle all the chores and schooling. Like Martha said, I can also sit in my jammies and no one minds. 
I love this place. It is as familiar as home to me. 
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Carole N.
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Martha, don't be silly! You were never "that girl." But I have to admit that I sometimes have that feeling as well.  Can you believe that I actually admitted to that right here on the boards? Am I becoming brave in my middle age or what? You ladies make me feel so comfortable. I am glad we had this thread. It has made this *real* community even more *REAL*.
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Willa
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| Posted: Jan 05 2007 at 11:45am | IP Logged
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Angie Mc wrote:
| I'm very grateful to be here. I try to be my best self (certainly not a false self) and appreciate every one else working so hard to make this space safe, challenging, and welcoming. For me, the question isn't "Are online communities 4real?" The questions are, "Does THIS online community help me to love God better? Does it help me to fulfill my vocation better? Does it help me to serve others? Does it challenge me to think more clearly and act more rightly?" For me the answer is yes. If at any time the answer is no, then I back off until I can find a way to yes again. |
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Well said, Angie! I should tape it to my computer.
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Willa
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Ruth
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Wow! That is so true! Well said. 
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Ruth
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ALmom
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I've been reading this and pondering - one of my favorite things about the forum - and the one that probably gets me in the most trouble time wise. Actually I was not taken aback by the article - I just saw it as a caution to realize that there are limits to what you can do on-line and don't neglect the people that God has placed before you in the process. I didn't read it as a condemnation of blogging or message boards in general, but as a caution to the very real and not uncommonly seen dangers of the medium. Sort of like a homilist that overemphasises one thing in order to get your attention.
I felt much like Carole when I first joined. I felt isolated, etc. and I tend to take a lot from a lot of different sources but never follow the program hook line and sinker - also totally inept at computer research so one of the early reasons for coming here was the awe of how I could ask - isn't there something about Catholic nuns in the civil war - and within 5 minutes, someone not only gave me a name but a link. That link saved me literally hours of searching. I still cannot copy posts, nor attach links and even with uploading papers to Kolbe, I have to get the kids or my dh to do it. I was teaching my own but there was nowhere I could express frustrations with how something was going, or really think out loud - and that seems to be extremely helpful to me in coming to solutions - just posting helps even if noone responds - though the responses have been awesome. When I tried to talk over my concerns with someone locally, the first and only comment was always to send your child to school. - I know this was advice received when I spoke of being overwhelmed with the vision issues - but on this board I received needed affirmation, encouragement and some useful suggestions - but always generously shared ideas of what worked in their household. With others around me here, I could only present one side of homeschooling - all the best things and you sensed that by homeschooling you were already automatically prejudged. The reality is that homeschooling is very hard work, takes tremendous time, is wonderfully rewarding but my house school is also imperfect and I shouldn't be on trial all the time. Homeschooling also makes me unavailable for daytime women's groups, etc. and limits the time I have outside my home. I've made efforts to belong in my parish but unless you sign up for committees, etc., you don't - it is more belonging according to their dictates rather than belonging according to God's plan at this season of my life. Here, I belong whether I am a lurker, poster, whatever and it doesn't even matter that I use workbooks - or that I don't.
I have really grown to love the give and take, something like conversations with other adults. I've been homeschooling a long time, so I chime in blabbing away ( thanks for never making me feel like an intruder) and even loving the give and take of some of the debates. The very first conversation I was in was with MacBeth on Suzuki vs Traditional - and I know I really gained an appreciation of seeing things from a different view - but it is harder not seeing someone in person (I love a good debate and do not get offended or hurt with strongly worded things and tend to "stand my own" so I sometimes fear coming across too strongly when I really am looking for the next persons comeback and in heated topics I will most frequently try to see both points of view and bring them together (sometimes risking hurting both sides). I have found this aspect to fulfill my own need for some academic challenge and get me thinking more deeply on different things. I also know that some personalities are easier misconstrued and others more sensitive and on message board formats where you don't have a personal history with the person, nor can you read body language feelings can be hurt and I try not to get too carried away - but I'm a blabber. -In real life, something that usually gives me a cue in how to make adjustments for the other person and to be sensitive to their needs, is body language. I don't have that here. Hopefully I have not offended anyone - and people have certainly been very kind to me.
I know friendships take time and I don't expect to be best buddies with someone I met on-line, even on this message board (though I would love to meet all of you and get to know you all better - and many seem to share enough in common that I think friendships could develop given time and opportunity). I think a lot is a regional thing - many that know each other, do live or have lived in the same region, frequently run into one another at different things or go through areas that each other live in. I am in N. Alabama - not generally on the path to anywhere. We do tend to be cautious as we are aware that this is a computer forum - so it's not like I could volunteer to watch someones children while they tour a campus (much as I would like to, I know I wouldn't be comfortable with any of you watching my children - not because I don't think you are wonderful but because I haven't ever met you in face to face - though I'd probably jump at a chance to spend some park time together and then see where things went from there).
I never read blogs - and didn't join in the forums discussing elegant simplicity once they went to blogs. I am not offended by that - and know I would not have been able to figure out how to post a picture anyways. Besides, I only have before pictures right now anyways.
I gained tremendous insight from the articles shared and printed them out to ponder - as I am so far from the ideal that it will take a while and some thought.
Perhaps we could plan some regional get togethers. I hope to meet some of you when we travel to DC area this summer for Naval Academy graduation.
I guess what I am saying is that there are limits and temptations with on-line type things. I have found that used wisely, these meet very real needs. They can certainly lead to neglect of those in your own family even. It is up to us to discipline ourselves for proper use. I found the article a great reminder that I need to do a better job of making sure I do this. Better go tend my 4 yo that needs me.
Janet
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Cici
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Rebecca wrote:
I enjoy getting together with IRL friends but do not do so very often. I have a couple of friends who are extremely patient and tolerant of my eccentricity and all the odd learning tangents that I seem to travel. I am one of those people who, when learning about something I am interested in (say birthing, nursing, knitting or Montessori), cannot seem to talk about much else, therefore turning off anyone who is not interested in that topic. I do not do this intentionally, in fact I really try not to but I end up doing it nonetheless.
I think local women think I am really independent because I do not get together very often but the reality is that I am somewhat reclusive because I am better able to keep all the necessary domestic and educational balls in the air when I stay home. When I am gone from our home even one day a week, I begin to fall apart at the seams, as does my home.
This forum gives me the support that I long for but it is on a timetable that I can adjust according to my family's needs. I can check the active topics at 11:00 at night and respond when the kids are asleep rather than trying to juggle all the chores and schooling. Like Martha said, I can also sit in my jammies and no one minds.
I love this place. It is as familiar as home to me. |
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Well said. I can so relate on the "extremely focused"/eccentric part of your post.
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Elizabeth
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Rebecca wrote:
I enjoy getting together with IRL friends but do not do so very often. I have a couple of friends who are extremely patient and tolerant of my eccentricity and all the odd learning tangents that I seem to travel. I am one of those people who, when learning about something I am interested in (say birthing, nursing, knitting or Montessori), cannot seem to talk about much else, therefore turning off anyone who is not interested in that topic. I do not do this intentionally, in fact I really try not to but I end up doing it nonetheless.
I think local women think I am really independent because I do not get together very often but the reality is that I am somewhat reclusive because I am better able to keep all the necessary domestic and educational balls in the air when I stay home. When I am gone from our home even one day a week, I begin to fall apart at the seams, as does my home.
This forum gives me the support that I long for but it is on a timetable that I can adjust according to my family's needs. I can check the active topics at 11:00 at night and respond when the kids are asleep rather than trying to juggle all the chores and schooling. Like Martha said, I can also sit in my jammies and no one minds.
I love this place. It is as familiar as home to me. |
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That's me. Totally. Absolutely what she said. And sometimes it's just nice to be understood.
As I read this thread, I am really concerned about any hurt feelings. I'm also concerned about Irene's observations regarding discussion being taken from here. What if I closed comments on my blog? If ever there was something someone really wanted to discuss, they could start a thread here and link to the blog. All discussion would be here. I think that would eliminate the some of the "beauty pageant" aspect too. A post could never be misperceived as fishing for compliments...
just thinking aloud.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Mare
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WJFR wrote:
| I'm just thinking aloud, too. I think you raise good questions but I don't have the answers. I was wondering if something like Pope John Paul's "cell" ideas would work with this. I can't find a link or anything, but I vaguely remember reading that he recommended forming communities to support devout Catholic living and then dividing them further as they got larger so that there were sub-groups. |
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I was thinking of the same thing. 
I also agree with everything Rebecca said. My time on the pc has been greatly reduced now that I've got four children to teach and who want to have their own pc time. Factor in that dh has to use the pc in the evenings and all my free pc time has been greatly reduced this year.
IRL, I don't have any friends who have choosen the homeschooling path like I did. (I am working on it though.  ) When I can get here, I enjoy reading the posts and try to reply as time permits. I think this is a wonderful community of homeschool moms.
Peace,
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Leonie
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Elizabeth wrote:
What if I closed comments on my blog? If ever there was something someone really wanted to discuss, they could start a thread here and link to the blog. All discussion would be here. I think that would eliminate the some of the "beauty pageant" aspect too. A post could never be misperceived as fishing for compliments...
just thinking aloud.
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Elizabeth, I think closing the comments seems pretty drastic. I think communities go in ebbs and flows - there are times when I am really busy with my many IRL friends and times when I have more space available for the 4 real community or my blog. I think this happens to us all - and thus there are times when I feel "in with the crowd" and times when I don't. Regardless of blogging or blogging comments.
Its the nature of community - IRL or virtual.
I think as we hang out together we feel a tidal, changing sense of being together - I know I appreciate all the posters here - be assured, ladies, all your post are read and are important.
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Mary G
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All I know is when my IRL friends became real, live friends when I relocated -- I couldn't have been more blessed (see my blog message that I just posted). We met Michele Q went she came out for the homeschool conference and Lissa met us this Septemberon her cross-country trek and they were both just as wonderful in person as online....and there are probably TONS of examples of this.
Yes, Virginia, there are real IRLs -- and thank goodness for them!
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humanaevitae
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Elizabeth- I have never seen blogs as fishing for compliments! Many times I'm too shy to post comments as I feel like the blogger will read my comment and wonder who invited her to my house! I have lately been reassured that bloggers like comments even if the commentor is not known to them. I guess I wasn't too sure how they worked.
Many times I am intimidated to share here mainly because I am new to HS and have more questions than comments. Relationships need to have give and take to develop and I wonder what I have to give!? Obviously everyone has something and that is something I'll have to think about. As the ladies here on the forum have always been kind and charitable, the only issue holding me back has been my shyness and self-doubt.
When I am in a new situation IRL I can read peoples facial expressions, tone, etc... which makes it easier for me to feel comfortable joining in as a new girl. Online I have wonder if people consider me an intruder as it is much harder to read people. IRL you can see someone looking at you when you speak- online I worry that I am invisible or else irritating!
Maybe it has to do with the medium one feels more comfortable with. When I want to discuss something I pick up the phone or make them a visit. I am not as comfortable with written words as there is not the immediate back and forth. That makes me feel more vunerable. With speech I can change the flow of conversation if I see that it is not going how I expected. Writing is a lot more permanent.
I'm not sure if this is applicable to what is being discussed. I do want to state that I feel more reassured now and will try to get over my self-consiousness. 
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
What if I closed comments on my blog? If ever there was something someone really wanted to discuss, they could start a thread here and link to the blog. All discussion would be here. I think that would eliminate the some of the "beauty pageant" aspect too. A post could never be misperceived as fishing for compliments...
just thinking aloud. |
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I would think that closing off blog comments would close off options. Some people visit your blogs who might comment there, but wouldn't want to comment on here, for whatever reason. Blogs can be evangelization wayposts. They reach a different though overlapping audience than this forum and that is a good thing. My hurried thoughts.... I took the computer away from the 10 year old and have to give it back!
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Willa
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MarilynW
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Angie Mc wrote:
For me, the question isn't "Are online communities 4real?" The questions are, "Does THIS online community help me to love God better? Does it help me to fulfill my vocation better? Does it help me to serve others? Does it challenge me to think more clearly and act more rightly?" For me the answer is yes. If at any time the answer is no, then I back off until I can find a way to yes again.
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Angie - I HAVE printed this out and stuck it on my computer. This is generally our family philosophy regarding friends, sports,parties,activities etc - does it bring us closer to God, does us make better Catholics, does it improve our family life, does it cause undue stress - and we make our decisions based on this. You put it beautifully.
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Marilyn
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teachingmyown
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doris wrote:
Natalia wrote:
I really don't want to dwell on the topic or make anybody feel self conscious. I just wanted to point out the fact that when here on the boards people mention that they receive tons of Christmas cards from some members here or that you have gotten some phone calls,etc it gives the feeling of some friends talking in front of you about a party that you weren't invited to and they had tons of fun.
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I can really relate to this. And it's totally natural to celebrate friendships on one's blog or in posts here -- just as it would come up in conversation. But to outsiders, it can also feel very much like there's an 'inner ring'. (cf C S Lewis).
just that it's easy to feel that there is a hierarchy and there's no way that newer members will ever be more than hangers-on.
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I can't for the life of me put together a coherent post to this thread. There is so much already said, and I could honestly agree with so much said from each perspective. (If there really are differing perspectives, I don't know...) Anyway, I wanted to address Doris' quote about being hangers-on.
I think that there are personalities that tend to be less assertive and less confident, myself included, in a group like this, especially when it is easy to see the "old-timers" as superwomen. I have been hanging around for at least six years, first on CCM, now here. And it took me a long time to feel that I was a "part" of the group. I didn't help that I always seemed to be asking for help, instead of giving it.
I remember being at the NACHE conference years ago. MacBeth and Elizabeth were both speakers. I knew who they were, but I didn't feel comfortable approaching them and saying hello. I didn't want to assume a familiararity with them just because I "knew" them on the list.
Years have passed and I consider many of these women as personal friends. But that is because it is a lesson they have taught me. When I met Lissa at a conference, she was so warm and wonderful, I felt like I was hugging my long lost best buddy. Elizabeth, Irene, Michelle and many others reached out to me when I didn't have the confidence to reach out to them. Many others have pm'ed offering their friendship in response to similar trials that we share.
That is my story. On the other hand, there are new-comers who settle right in and become as much a part of it all as those of us who have been here for years.(Hi Ruth!!) Maybe they spend a lot of time pm'ing people or getting phone numbers and chatting. But mostly it is because they have that personality that never stops to think that they are a new-comer and an upstart! Totally joking here! Really, I am envious of such social beings.
My point, (yes there is one), is that this is an incredibly welcoming group and that anyone who jumps in is warmly welcomed into the "inner circle", so to speak. I guess it does mean taking a risk and opening up. Or just posting incessantly!!
One more thought. As women, I think many of us, if not all, have been hurt by other women. I have been on several email lists with Catholic women and seen how easily hurt feelings can happen. I believe that this makes us guarded and skeptical of a world without cliques.
This forum has truly been blessed with wonderful moderators and wonderful list members that it is a safe place of love and acceptance.
If I get a chance, I want to chime in on the blog issue, too. But not now... the natives are restless.
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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Genevieve
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Martha wrote:
Genevieve wrote:
| I only have a minute to comment but just wondering why would "cliquish" be so bad? |
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I don't think there is a clique here. A clique implies exclusion on purpose. I don't see that here at all. It seems to be more of an "opt out". Some don't feel comfortable entering the conversations, which may have nothing to do with who is having the conversation.
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Oh Martha! Thank you for expressing something that I had a hard time finding words to. I knew clique had a bad connotation but couldn't figure out subtle distinction.
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Genevieve
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Willa
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humanaevitae wrote:
| Many times I am intimidated to share here mainly because I am new to HS and have more questions than comments. Relationships need to have give and take to develop and I wonder what I have to give!? Obviously everyone has something and that is something I'll have to think about. As the ladies here on the forum have always been kind and charitable, the only issue holding me back has been my shyness and self-doubt. |
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I think newcomers who ask questions and share experiences give the old-timers a fresh point of view and a sense of being able to help that is a real blessing. Questions make us rethink and clarify what we have taken for granted or forgotten about. At least this is true for me. I have been homeschooling for 14 years (mom for more than 21 years now) and I think I would have gotten into a rut if I didn't get to hear that variety of perspectives from people all over the spectrum of experience.
One thing I really like about this forum is that in the linear yahoo format, sometimes newcomer questions got lost in the shuffle. Here questions have a better chance of being picked up or if they get lost, someone can easily bump them back up to "active" status.
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AMDG
Willa
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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I have been following this post and enjoying the "realness" of it. I keep thinking - OK I will jump in here because I see something I can relate to - but the time has not been right. This morning as I "catch up" I have to say I could have written Molly's post. I love this list. I have mainly been one to ask and not offer but I am realizing that is my own insecurity. I am not one to put myself out there for many reasons - none of which have anything to do with people here. But the reality is now I have jumped in - put myself out there in several posts and I have been welcomed - warts and all. In the past there have been times when I have posted and received no responses and instead of bumping my own post or reasking I have "assumed" my question was not worth anyone's time - or because I was not "in the loop" ... again ... my own insecurities.
Due to circumstances beyond anyone's control my IRL support group is very scattered and unavailable. We all feel it - kids are older, many in High School, some further away, sports schedules, more children etc. We just can't get together anymore. Even activities with children are hard to schedule as everyone's older kids have different schedules so our days are just full. Anyhow - where I am headed with this is ... I have relied heavily on this community during the past year. Reading posts in inspiring and it just feels good to know there are so many families working hard, supporting each other in our vocation. Admittedly as my burn out has gotten worse I have found the list to be a bit discouraging. I have "backed off" from reading blogs and the "lovliness fairs" (which I really do think are a wonderful way to share) because they have overwhelmed me. It has intimidated me to wonder how you all homeschool, meet here, blog, keep your homes so beautiful, enjoy your children, and have time to do all those wonderful activities to bring the Liturgical year into your home daily. I cannot get out of my own way right now and I often wonder if I am doing my children a disservice to have them home right now.
I don't know if the blogs have taken away from discussion here. I appreciate that you all link to your blogs when you reference them so that I can go and see the details of what you are discussing. I don't see it as a bad thing - I see it as a time saver - why would you write it twice when you can link to it. It seems like an extention of the list to me but admittedly a very large extention which I don't always have time to explore. I can make the choice. If it was all posted here I would have to discern whether I had the time to read it all anyhow.
I also like the format - I can pop in to see what is active - or search a topic very easily.
Just my .02 - hope it is coherent.
__________________
God Bless,
Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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alicegunther
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1992
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 11:26am | IP Logged
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Just poking my head back into this thread to say that my New Year's resolution is to give more of myself to this board. To that end, I wrote a thank you that a few days ago would have been presented as a post on Cottage Blessings. Truly it belongs on these forums with all of you!
Here is a toast to 4Real Family Togetherness! Prayers for Baby's Head Thank You.
Friends, it is your prayers that make you REAL to me, important to me, and a living, breathing part of my life--prayer is God's own internet, an instant messaging system conceived long before the advent of the PC. The spiritual relationship we share each day is more important than a cup of coffee at the dining room table, and you may be assured that my prayers are being said for you today and always.
__________________
Love, Alice
mother of seven!
  
Cottage Blessings
Brew yourself a cup of tea, and come for a visit!
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Are online communities 4real?
