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Wendy
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Brenda, I think you're right about a "framework with lots of flexibility." Drew has posted several times (either on the latincentered.com blog or Mungo's Mathoms -- my feeble brain can't remember  ) about how he expects people to tailor the curriculum to fit their family and circumstances. He has even said he's not using it exactly as written for his own daughter.
Anne Marie, I think you've got the right idea about literature, in that he encourages lots of family reading outside the curriculum. So Cay, you could fit in all the Sonlight and CHC books you want.  I do, though, have the sense that the few literary works Drew included in the curriculum were chosen because he felt they were classics no one should miss. There are no LCC police, though...
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Elizabeth
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Wendy wrote:
Brenda, I think you're right about a "framework with lots of flexibility." Drew has posted several times (either on the latincentered.com blog or Mungo's Mathoms -- my feeble brain can't remember ) about how he expects people to tailor the curriculum to fit their family and circumstances. He has even said he's not using it exactly as written for his own daughter.
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His daughter is 4 or maybe five and using Latina Christiana? Am I the only one who has had six 4 year-olds so far and none of them would have been capable of doing that workbook?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Genevieve
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Elizabeth, I think his daughter is "gifted". I could be wrong....
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MichelleW
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Elizabeth,
Maybe he is a "Mr. Potato Head" like me. We use (and have for several years) Latina Christiana and the kids don't even know there IS a workbook. I bought the workbook for myself and then we do the lessons orally and make up games for the written part. When my children were little they were excused from the written part completely and only did the oral exercises with us (because they wanted to). I would still call this "using" Latina Christiana, but certainly not the way it was intended.
Michelle
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BrendaPeter
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Just came across an article on memorization that's pertinent to what we've been discussing. I especially like the part about St. Augustine  .
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BrendaPeter
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Elizabeth wrote:
His daughter is 4 or maybe five and using Latina Christiana? Am I the only one who has had six 4 year-olds so far and none of them would have been capable of doing that workbook? |
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I think his daughter is 4 1/2. I'm not sure what they're doing in terms of Latin or Greek, but I believe his knowledge of both languages is what has gotten them off to such an early start. Also he was a German teacher, so he's pretty comfortable with languages. I assume at this point, there's not too much writing involved.
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lapazfarm
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BrendaPeter wrote:
| Just came across an article on memorization that's pertinent to what we've been discussing. I especially like the part about St. Augustine . |
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Very interesting article, Brenda! Thanks for sharing it. Looks like I might need to add some more memorization into our routine. We've typically only memorized a few things each year, as the mood struck, but I can see the benefits of making it a more regular habit.
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Karen T
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I have just ordered the book so I can't speak about it yet, but have been reading this thread with interest.
When I first looked into homeschooling, i was very attracted to classical education, but realized that WTM and DYOCC, while appealing to me, would most likely stifle my ds at this point. So we have strived to follow a more CM approach, but quite by accident, our studies main backbone has been math and Latin. Math b/c ds was having trouble with it in ps when we first started homeschooling (he's now doing very well), and Latin b/c I'm familiar with it, so it was the first language I wanted to teach. We've been using LREG, so I have not taught English grammar separately, and b/c of that Latin has become a daily must-do subject. History and science are done in various time frames depending on what we're studying, but we always get math and Latin done. Also, when we're done for the summer break, ds continues to do math, at a slower pace, and studies Latin vocabulary, so we can pick back up in the fall easily.
So it's interesting to see that what we've been doing may be similar to LCC, from what i've read so far!
Karen T
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~Rachel~
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Drew's daughter is 4 1/2, gifted and using it orally, if that helps She is reading very well... chaoter books. He has a hard time keeping up with her which is why he doesn't follow his own guidelines to the T (it's on his LCC blog BTW).
hth ;)
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Elizabeth
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Wendy wrote:
| Brenda, I think you're right about a "framework with lots of flexibility." Drew has posted several times (either on the latincentered.com blog or Mungo's Mathoms -- my feeble brain can't remember ) about how he expects people to tailor the curriculum to fit their family and circumstances. He has even said he's not using it exactly as written for his own daughter. |
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Now I have the book. I think it's easy to write that it's a framework with lots of flexibility; it's another thing entirely to show how there is flexibility. In theory, it all looks quite nice and it seems less complex the TWTM. However, I think it's far from simple.
For instance, he makes a great case for nature study. I'm with him that nature study, done well (lots of follow up and research and living book-reading), is all you need through seventh grade. But then, look at the model schedules. He's given one hour a week to that! We can barely get in the car and go somewhere in an hour! It's totally impractical to think there is any time for the appropriate wondering in that hour a week, never mind the digging in.
He says to go narrow and deep with the literature and to focus on the ancients. Then he reminds you to schedule one hour of independent reading and one hour of family read alouds for all the other children's literature out there. When you add those hours into the schedule, we're talking about a 7 hour academic day in the third grade!You would certainly need all that time to get it all in. And if you begin this with your first child, everyone is on a different level studying a different thing for each grade level...I find that pretty impractical.
He gives passing mention to learning disabilities and provides a link. At that link, it says that Latin might work for children with auditory processing dificulties. No mention is made of visual processing difficulties or anything else for that matter. What to do if you have one or two children in a family of eight who have those learning problems? If you believe everything he says, they are not going to be well-educated.
And then there is another population to consider...my children are the only ones on our street who speak English as a first language. Two of them have coaches who are not native speakers. Seems like Spanish earlier than high school might be good idea. There's no room in his proposed schedule to add something. What do you drop? I guess you could drop Greek in the third grade...
What I'm getting at, I guess, is that I think he misses my favorite angle of home education. It's the "What did God have in mind for this child?" angle. Despite the fact that he says to tailor to fit your family, does he give advice on how to tailor to fit the child? Does he even care? Or is every child to do the same thing? He pleads a case that children need a Latin-centered curriculum far more than they need to learn a trade. All children? There's no room for a child who loves to build to get out every day and construct. There's little time for physical labor. There's little time to nurture individual interests. Some children will want much more time to work on their bug collections. And some are going to want hours in front of the computer, writing code.After the second grade, there's no play time until after those seven hours of acadmeics are out of the way! How sad to let all those golden days of outdoor time slip away...
And I know at least two children who couldn't possibly sit here for 7+ hours a day, working on subjects so intensely heavy. But they thrive when allowed to create, both on paper and through art.
By the way, where is the art?! Where is the chance to paint and play with dough and study great prints? Where do they learn "drawing literacy?" Is there any time for liturgical crafts? (We're spent by 3:00 and we have dance and sports--are those not ok?) Where is ANYTHING tactile? This denies an entire segment of the population who have gifts in something other than the academic realm or music. Are they not to discover and nurture those gifts until their secondary education is over? And what happens when you mix them into a family of children for whom this kind of curriculm is appropriate? Don't both kinds of children--all kinds of children--deserve a program of study that is theirs alone?
I think this book has the potential, upon careful study, to cause just as much angst as TWTM...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JSchaaf
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Elizabeth-
I think it's great that you are able to discern that this is not the home education model/style for you. But after lots of reading, research, thinking, discussion and prayer I feel that this is the method that will work for my children, with the gifts and strengths that God has given to them. In the early grades "school" will take about 1.5 hours daily:
15 min Latin
30 min Math
15 min Handwriting/Copywork
15 min Phonics/Read Aloud to mom
15 Violin Practice
In the afternoon we will have another 60 minutes of reading/narration/map work, etc. in one of these areas:
Modern Studies -this year it will be early American History-most readaloud and narrations
Classical Studies-we will read greek myths
Christian Studies-Catholic Mosiac and First Communion Notebook (this will take more than an hour a week!!)
There will be another 60 minutes in the day for children's literature/picture books, etc.
This schedule gives us Friday off for First Friday Mass and picnic, park days, Field trips, nature study, etc.
We also will be going to park day or nature walks on Tuesday afternoons and Dance on Thursday afternoons.
This schedule leaves us lots of time for crafts, nature study, playing outside, and just playing, dreaming and being children.
Maybe it's because my children are small or because there are only three of them-but I feel very hopeful and optimistic about LCC and how it will work in my family. I think it will provide a basic framework and still allow lots of "delight-directed learning"- a chance for my children to discover their passions and delve into them. Maybe I'm just being idealistic and need a few more years of homeschooling under my belt. I'm probably being overly sensitive but your comments above made me feel as if you disapprove of those who choose LCC for their family, that it doesn't quite count as Real Learning. I think LCC can be Real Learning...when the book is used as a framework and not as a prescription. Even the author doesn't use his book as a mandate and he doesn't expect others to, either.
Jennifer
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Kathryn UK
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Hmmm! So much for leaving spare time for interests and hobbies, which was the impression I got from the sample section available online! I put a post on my blog a few days ago comparing The Latin Centered Curriculum with Charlotte Mason's philosophy of education and concluded they had a lot in common - but that was just based on the short online section. CM would certainly have advocated more variety ... and Elizabeth, I'm sure she would have said do the Spanish
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Elizabeth
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My concern is not with centering a curriculum on Latin. My concern is a book (remember not everyone will go to his blog or the message boards) that, when taken alone, seems to prescribe the same education for everyone and a model schedule that does not leave time for unique interests, adequate nature, art, or outdoor play. If I were a new homeschooler, reading this book, I'd think that my first grader needed 20 minutes of Latin, half an hour of math, 20 minutes of music, 15 minutes of copywork, half an hour of phonics, and half an hour once a week of each: English studies, Christian studies, modern studies, nature studies and classical studies. And that they didn't need painting, clay, drawing, drama, or crafts at all.
What if you have a child who, in the sixth grade, is realy not emotionally ready for the story line in the Odyssey (not to mention the complexity of language, plot, and characterization)? Are you a LCC failure? Is your child? What will you do? That's all he has planned for sixth grade Classical Studies and English literature. He says you can substitute The Trojan War and move everything forward a year but that will seriously impact Plato in the twelfth grade, a selection that is specifically chosen because it's appropriate as a nearly-grown child contemplates his future.
What I'm trying to say is that we do our children a disservice if we don't begin with the child and then design the curriculum. It sounds like you've done that, Jennifer. But did you do it because Latin Centered Curriculum encouraged you to do it? Did LCC offer you any guidance in doing it?
You have experience with home education. You have the benefit of reading and listening to other people who encourage you to consider other priorities and you are not following Drew's plan. You are not following the book as written at all. 
Real Learning means that a parent has prayerfully discerned what God wants for each specific child where the whole of education is concerned. For the record, some of my children will begin their days with math and Latin. And some of them will study MP's Greek myths too. A Latin Centered academic curriculum might be a part of what God intends for some or even most children (as you have determined it is for your children), but I think this book, as it's written, does not promote the philosophy that we are to truly tailor a course of study to each individual child, taking into context the real and practical lives of the family where that child lives.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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lapazfarm
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I have been following this thread with interest. Not because I am considering using this with my children, but quite frankly because I just don't get it.
Perhaps I need to read the book to fully understand, but I think Elizabeth points out exactly my concerns about the whole thing.
I posted on my blog recently about Dr. Howard Gardner's theory of Multiple Intelligences. In a nutshell, it describes much of what Elizabeth is saying about all of us learning and thinking differently. In typical public schools the emphasis and advantage is to those children whose strength is the linguistic and the mathematical/logical intelligences, completely ignoring those whose strengths lie in other areas such as visual,interpersonal, kinesthetic, or nataralist. This is one reason why many children (boys in particular) do not thrive in the PS system. It seems as if LCC is similarly focused. If you have a child whose talents are in those 2 areas, then great. But what of the differently talented child? I know my ds love of learning would wither and die under such a program!
There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" curriculum. If this is what the author intends to say, then he is just dead wrong. You can talk about "tailoring it to fit the needs of your child" but what if the entire basis is wrong for your child?
I think this is where some mom's get confused and frustrated. If Latin centered is touted as the "best" way to educate dc the naturally moms are going to be drawn to it. We all want what is best for our dc. Throw in the word "classical" and it starts to sound even better. We may even be tempted to throw out other methods that we know in our hearts work best for our dc and jump on the Latin bandwagon because if we don't we must somehow be shortchanging them, giving them less than the best! Nonsense! What is best is what works for our particular dc. And that could be any method.
Tell me, how does LCC suggest we educate those children who learn best through artistic expression, through discussion, or through action? Putting math, Latin, Greek, etc at the center of their day, every day is doing these children a grave disservice.
Nature study one hour per week through 7th grade? What does that do for the child with the naturalist intelligence as a strength?
That being said, I know that this type of program will work wonderfully for some children. Bravo! But where we must use caution is in thinking that it is the best program for all children if they are to receive an "excellent' education. Perhaps the author does not suggest this at all and merely is presenting a method that he feels will work for some children for whom it is suited. Maybe it is us Moms who need to take care not to think because a program is "classical" or "Latin centered" that it is automatically superior to other methods.
Please do not take this as an insult or rant against classical ed. I think it is wonderful if it suits your child. I am just concerned about the air of superiority that surrounds these type of programs (intended or not) that makes moms feel like they are somehow shortchanging their children if they use anything but classical. I think Elizabeth put it well when she said this book has the potential to cause "angst" among moms. I have seen it on this forum already. The guilt some moms have expressed because classical is not working for them, or they can't seem to keep Latin going in their homes.
I guess I just don't get it.
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Willa
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lapazfarm wrote:
| There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" curriculum. If this is what the author intends to say, then he is just dead wrong. You can talk about "tailoring it to fit the needs of your child" but what if the entire basis is wrong for your child? |
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This is an interesting thread.
The thing is, I think that up till recently, educators DID think that education meant a certain fixed body of knowledge. Eg to get into Harvard you had to take a Latin exam.
You can see this going on even up to this century. Like in the Anne of Green Gables books. Gilbert Blythe was sick for a year and missed a lot of school, so he was a big boy in one of the lower classes. But because he was so bright (in an academic, linguistic-mathematical way) he quickly caught up and went to the top of the class and went on to college to become a doctor.
But back then, there didn't seem to be the sense that everyone should have the same kind of education. The majority of people did not get that kind of education. They would go into apprenticeships, or train in their father's business, or whatever.
My oldest thrived on a low-key LCC-type curriculum in combination with a lot of "real learning" foundation building. But my second son was not suited to a heavy focus on Latin and language. I don't think a homeschool parent can MAKE a child suit to something he is not. So that's where trying an LCC-type formula too simplistically might lead to a backlash -- my kid isn't progressing well, what's wrong with HIM or with ME?? That's something that seems to happen a lot in the homeschool world and it's unfortunate, I think.
Maybe Charlotte Mason is right that if you have the ideal that every child has the right to a good education, you have to do it more broadly and generously -- include things in the curriculum that will suit all different types of intelligences, and let them focus more on the areas they have as a strength. Just thinking out loud,
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Willa
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Wendy
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I want to post but don't have time; we're leaving for my parents' in a few hours and won't be home till Tuesday. This thread has been on my mind, though, and y'all have brought up some issues dh and I have been discussing. Let's just say he would be in complete agreement with you, Elizabeth, and you, Theresa, and you, Willa.
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Wendy
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Momma to Grace, Sam, Ben, Maggie, Mary Cate, and Jamie
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
Real Learning means that a parent has prayerfully discerned what God wants for each specific child where the whole of education is concerned....
I think this book, as it's written, does not promote the philosophy that we are to truly tailor a course of study to each individual child, taking into context the real and practical lives of the family where that child lives. |
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I was thinking about this some more....
I think almost any system of education will work if the parents are willing to tailor it to the individual child. Without that willingness, almost nothing will work.
Sometimes, though, it's confusing to sort through all the "real learning" possibilities without a framework, especially for a new homeschooler.
Parents have worries:
Will there be gaps?
Is there a better option out there?
Am I missing out on something?
I think that it can be helpful to have a filter to organize the overwhelmingness of possibility, at least for some people. I know that when I first started looking into CM and all the other options out there, it was staggering. Classical education (defined by Kolbe which has a strong Non Multa sed Multum, and Parents are the experts, slant) -- helped me steer through all the choices.
I think sometimes people, especially when starting out, need a simple but fairly strong framework. LCC, CHC, those kinds of things that leave time and space for other pursuits, might fill the bill. I think that is one of the attractions of these kinds of things, and if they can be used with a grain of salt, they would work all right in my opinion. Without that grain of salt, almost ANY type of education would be overwhelming and not suit some individual children. Even an eclectic real learning approach, without that filtering-through-family-needs, can sometimes leave some kids and moms floundering, feeling they do not have enough of an overview or enough clearcut goals.
edited to add that I think that a virtue of Elizabeth's book, is that it does put the "Curriculum of Love" aspect of it in first place -- perhaps that is what is missing from some of these "reclaiming the lost tools of education" approaches?
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Willa
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Natalia
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I have been reading the book also. I have to say that I am disappointed in the book. It wasn't what I was expecting. I thought there was going to be more "how to" kind of information and at least on a first reading it didn't seem too simple to me.
I don't dislike the book as much as Elizabeth though. I am attracted to CE because I have had the chance to meet several people that are a product of CE and I like what I see. I think one of the faults of my education in the DR was that I don't think I was taught to think logically and to analize and critique what I read. I want that for my kids. CE seems to do that well but I don't think it is the only way that these goals can be achieved. That said I have to say that I am more attracted to the product I have seen that to the material. i really don't have any desire to read Greek tragedies and Herodutos in the original!
As for CE being a one size fits all kind of education, I think what Campbell is saying is that if this type of education worked for so long why wouldn't it work now? Did the children back then where not allowed to follow their interest/ Where they allowed to be different? I wonder how difference was handled? Is the study of Latin beyond the grasp of certain children even if the method use to teach it is manipulated to suit the child's learning style? If a child tends toward a certain kind of intellegence or learning style of interest, does that means that other things are not to be required?
I still like the idea of having some core subjects and other non-core subjects. I seem to tend to give equal importance to a lot of subjects and feel stressed out if we are not covering a lot of material. I like the idea of depth in a few areas instead of superficial knowledge in many. I don't think the book was helpful in helping you approach this. For one thing as far as I have read, it doesn't help to figure out how to start this approach midstream. As much as I am attracted to the idea, I don't think that this model as outlined in this book would fit us.
I have to run now. Interesting conversation,
Natalia
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JSchaaf
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Elizabeth wrote:
My concern is not with centering a curriculum on Latin. My concern is a book (remember not everyone will go to his blog or the message boards) that, when taken alone, seems to prescribe the same education for everyone and a model schedule that does not leave time for unique interests, adequate nature, art, or outdoor play. If I were a new homeschooler, reading this book, I'd think that my first grader needed 20 minutes of Latin, half an hour of math, 20 minutes of music, 15 minutes of copywork, half an hour of phonics, and half an hour once a week of each: English studies, Christian studies, modern studies, nature studies and classical studies. And that they didn't need painting, clay, drawing, drama, or crafts at all.
What I'm trying to say is that we do our children a disservice if we don't begin with the child and then design the curriculum. It sounds like you've done that, Jennifer. But did you do it because Latin Centered Curriculum encouraged you to do it? Did LCC offer you any guidance in doing it?
You have experience with home education. You have the benefit of reading and listening to other people who encourage you to consider other priorities and you are not following Drew's plan. You are not following the book as written at all.
Real Learning means that a parent has prayerfully discerned what God wants for each specific child where the whole of education is concerned. For the record, some of my children will begin their days with math and Latin. And some of them will study MP's Greek myths too. A Latin Centered academic curriculum might be a part of what God intends for some or even most children (as you have determined it is for your children), but I think this book, as it's written, does not promote the philosophy that we are to truly tailor a course of study to each individual child, taking into context the real and practical lives of the family where that child lives. |
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Elizabeth,
I agree. (And I apologize if my post this morning was a little reactive.) If a brand new homeschooling mother was given LCC and no other information and was told this is how home education is done, then, no, the child would not get a complete education. Adequate, maybe, but not complete. But I think the thing that leads a parent to home education is knowing and wanting what is best for her child. I think that same "mother's intuition" would still be working after she attempts LCC and cause her to seek out more info if it isn't the ideal situation for her child. This (hypothetical) mother would have to live in complete isolation to not learn more about homeschooling. Even if she never went on the internet, intro to homeschooling books abound at bookstores, the library, and even Walmart. And those books always seem to cover the "types" of homeschooling: classical, unschooling, CM, traditional textbook, etc. When one runs into another homeschooling parent the second question (after "How old are your kids?" is "What kind of curriculum do you use?") And then she might come across For The Children's Sake in the library and it will change her life and she will read it aloud to her husband until his eyes cross and she will audibly weep at the phrase "children are born persons" because that was what she was trying to articulate all this time...wait, that wasn't Hypothetical Mom, that was me! 
Anyway, you are right. I'm fitting LCC into what I already know I want for my children and what I know is best for them.
My LCC book is packed in the suitcase, so I can't say whether or not there is any encouragement to look at the child and then the curriculum. Probably not! But this mode of education turned out some great thinkers and do-ers and even those who ended up less notable were well-educated. (Ay, there's the rub! Figuring out what "well-educated" means...not a one size fits all definition, as I am beginning to realize)
Ok, gotta run. Allyson is trying to pack 12 pairs of socks but no undies in her suitcase...
Jennifer
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Kathryn UK
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| Posted: July 01 2006 at 4:11pm | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
| Maybe Charlotte Mason is right that if you have the ideal that every child has the right to a good education, you have to do it more broadly and generously -- include things in the curriculum that will suit all different types of intelligences, and let them focus more on the areas they have as a strength. Just thinking out loud, |
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This is why I always bounce back to CM, even when something else seems attractive. CM builds in a breadth that does allow the curriculum to be tailored to the individual. I guess the big difference between the Latin Centered Curriculum and CM is that in LCC the emphasis is on particular educational content whereas CM is education "for the children's sake".
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Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06) (11/07)
The Bookworm
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Latin Centered Curriculum
