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MicheleQ
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jenngm67 wrote:
| My point... is that the presentation of NFP is pushed as a birth control method. Dh and I were pondering and pondering how else to present it. We didn't come up with an answer, but we knew that this wasn't the right way. |
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I think one of the ways is to be sure that it's presented as Msgr. Burke does by making sure that couples know that unless you truly do have grave and serious reasons for practicing NFP even it can harm your marriage. No, not to the same degree as contraception (which in itself is intrinsically evil ) but it does damage nonetheless. I don't think that point is stressed enough (if at all!) and perhaps it would make a lot more people think twice and really consider their reasons.
I don't like the term Natural Family Planning either. I would prefer to use the language of the Church which is more along the lines of "periodic continence" or "periodic abstinence". I think the term NFP is too "positive" of a term. I don't have a problem with "fetility awareness" except perhaps it really should just be used in regards to teaching couples who specifically are trying to have a baby. But periodic continence (as the CCC calls it) is a privation and sacrifice and so should be presented in that way as something that you really don't want to do unless you truly must, and with the warning that it can harm your marriage if not done for the right reasons.
I wish I had more time to share my thoughts this morning but I don't. I trust you'll get my drift. 
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Martha
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Elizabeth wrote:
Here's a thought: One would think that a "Grave and Serious" reason to abstain would be the impending death of the father. That is, if you looked at your chart and saw a fertile window but you had magic ball that said your husband would be dead next week, "prudence" would probably dictate that this would be an extremely difficult, even unwise, time to be pregnant.
Three weeks ago, Stephanie woke up to find her 43-year-old husband dead beside her. Last week she called and said, "George left me a gift before he died." She doesn't see this unexpected, unplanned baby any other way. She has three preschool children, a new one on the way and she is newly widowed. But, truthfully, I can't see anything but beauty in the timing of that new baby. And neither can the people close to her.
This is a most extreme example, but it points up how openness in even the most apparentnly grave situations leaves God room to bring beauty to a broken world.
It also begs the question: just what is grave and serious? How can we begin to think ourselves qualified to decide timing or provision? How can we know the ways in which God will allow us to grow? Why do we think it's all about us? How can we know how our baby might touch the life of our spouse or his siblings or his grandparents or the great big world? Isn't the prudent thing to do to allow God to make those decisions and to do nothing which might thwart the will of God? |
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 That's just what I was trying to convey in my post and did such a horrid job of it! Thank you!
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Martha
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JennGM
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MicheleQ wrote:
| I don't like the term Natural Family Planning either. I would prefer to use the language of the Church which is more along the lines of "periodic continence" or "periodic abstinence". I think the term NFP is too "positive" of a term. I don't have a problem with "fetility awareness" except perhaps it really should just be used in regards to teaching couples who specifically are trying to have a baby. But periodic continence (as the CCC calls it) is a privation and sacrifice and so should be presented in that way as something that you really don't want to do unless you truly must, and with the warning that it can harm your marriage if not done for the right reasons. |
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Bravo, Michele! I'm so enjoying these discussions. I probably should be concentrating more on the thread "Distractions During Prayer" to get my prayer life in order, but this is another subject that has been on my mind lately and in conversations with family.
That point of "periodic" is very good. I think that's the answer for me. NFP is presented as a "Way of life." Couples that teach it always talk about how they practice NFP. And that's not what it's intended for. I'd say it's a cycle by cycle decision -- not a "lifestyle."
Grave and serious reasons: life of the mother is one. On another list a mom was expecting number 3, trying to do VBAC after 2 c/s her uterus ruptured. She died on the table, twice. The baby died, the mother was resucitated. Her uterus needs to heal before she can even think of getting pregnant. This is a clear example.
Health of the Mother: post c/s. If one's fertility comes back sooner than expected the body needs healing before the next baby. Doctors suggest 1 year optimum.
There were some passages from Covenanted Happiness that I think would give help in this area. I'm not sure if I should post them here or other thread.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Here's a thought: One would think that a "Grave and Serious" reason to abstain would be the impending death of the father. |
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I have a friend whose father was dying of cancer when he and his wife concieved their 12 child. He died before the baby was born and many people felt what they did was irresponsible, but that child was a joy and comfort to the entire family in a very difficult time.
Quote:
| It also begs the question: just what is grave and serious? How can we begin to think ourselves qualified to decide timing or provision? How can we know the ways in which God will allow us to grow? Why do we think it's all about us? How can we know how our baby might touch the life of our spouse or his siblings or his grandparents or the great big world? Isn't the prudent thing to do to allow God to make those decisions and to do nothing which might thwart the will of God? |
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Not only is it the prudent thing but it is the required thing. . .but periodic abstinence when practiced correctly isn't a thwarting of the will of God it's a participation in it. We have to allow for the possibilty of grave and serious reasons because the Church does. I am confident that if the prudent choice was always to just do nothing Paul VI and John Paul II would have said so - they didn't.
OK now I'm really behind - gotta go!
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
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mumofsix
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Posted twice, don't know why.
Jane.
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mumofsix
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I cannot get the hang of the yellow quotes!
Jane.
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mumofsix
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[Elizabeth Foss wrote:-
It also begs the question: just what is grave and serious? How can we begin to think ourselves qualified to decide timing or provision? How can we know the ways in which God will allow us to grow? Why do we think it's all about us? How can we know how our baby might touch the life of our spouse or his siblings or his grandparents or the great big world? Isn't the prudent thing to do to allow God to make those decisions and to do nothing which might thwart the will of God?[/QUOTE]
I know what you mean, but Catholic church teaching does indeed require us to make these prudential decisions: in other words, it is not Catholic teaching that we should "leave it all up to God", at least unless a prudential decision has been made by us, with prayer, that that is the right way to go for now.
It is really hard to get one's head around the idea that it might not be God's will for us to have another child: surely every child that we can possibly have is going to be the most wonderful gift? I think it IS true that any child we have has been loved by God from the beginning of time and that we will receive the graces needed to bring that child up, whatever our situation, if we pray for them, but ... we still have to practise prudence.
Okay how many is too many?  SIX! (Only kidding.) A priest once explained this to me rather well. We have an obligation to go to Mass on Sunday, and to avoid this obligation is a grave sin. What if there is six feet of snow on the ground? Do we still have to go? If I am a strong young man, yes certainly. If I am an elderly lady with brittle bones, no, I have a grave and sufficient reason for not attending Mass that day, because if I slip and fall I may easily be seriously injured or even die. The same circumstances may be a sufficient and grave reason for one couple to avoid another pregnancy, yet not at all for a different, stronger couple.
We vary so much in our capacities, weaknesses and gifts. Some can manage a very large family wonderfully well. Others will struggle to the extent that it is doubtful whether God ever planned it like this. I have a friend who was #8 in a family of 11. Twin brothers were born 18 months after her, then another girl. She is Catholic, pro-life, has six children of her own and is grateful to be alive. However, she feels that, objectively, it was wrong of her parents to have as many as 11 children as they were substantially neglected. (Her parents did have some significant character weaknesses, but according to older siblings coped much better when there were fewer children.) It has affected her own ability to mother her children: she struggles to be tender with them and is often much too harsh. She knows this and it hurts her so much as she loves them a great deal. I would have to say that they are quite damaged in some ways and are not coping well as young adults.
Fwiw, Bookswithtea, you are not alone! I do worry about my children and whether I will always be able to meet their needs. I only have six, but they have special needs, many of them. I have erred on the side of generosity, I feel, and I expect God to honour that and help me! He had better do, because I struggle enough with meeting the needs of a little baby and a four year old competing for me, to say nothing of a young adult going through quite troubled times and another with Down's Syndrome, plus two more. I certainly know that I am not being called to have any more children, though I am as affected as anyone by the knowledge of all those children out there needing families ...
But my ability to cope is finite. Just another point of view.
Jane.[/QUOTE]
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gwendyt
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Martha wrote:
What we're really scared of is our personal hardships. It's normal and human, but as christians we're called let Him rule over us - not fear. It's the cross we all must carry.
I wonder if a good part of it is just modern mindset creeping in?] |
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Fear: FALSE EVIDENCE APPEARING REAL. A friend shared this with me, and it pops into my head often! If we're looking for reasons, I think you've just hit two of them on the head, and I feel they are the main ones. Suffering is not understood in our time - as I'm reading "Story of a Soul," I'm seeing that more and more.
Modern mindset? I definitely think so! Anyone listen to Dr.Ray? He talks so much about how we as parents have really lost our perspective re: our authority and discipline over our kids (and I don't mean that in a strong, negative way - only positive) I think all that he talks about ties in with this issue. One of the main things I hear is "I can't have another - I can't even control the two I have!" And they see me with my five kids, behaving reasonbly well, and see me as superhuman "got it all together" mom, which, of course, is not a correct perception In regards to making an effort to always look good in public, I used to always concern myself with this, but then I found it created this perception that others looked at and simply told themselves "I could never do that" - thus they won't even think about the possibilities at all. Now I don't purposely make us look bad in public , but if there is the occasional tough day where I don't have it all together, I let it show a bit and find that my honesty is well received (she is human after all!) After all, is IS by the grace of God that I am where I am.
I am really appreciating exploring this - I honestly have not "made that leap" totally yet, and this is something we struggle with, although we prayerfully are trying to discern what God is asking of us. This also makes me think of how important having a strong prayer life is - I don't think many people even have this, so it makes it even more difficult for them when it comes to subjects like this.
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Wendy
Married to DH Joe 18 yrs., 8 beautiful children - 2 girls, 6 boys (14,12,9,7,5,3,1,newbie born 3/1/2010)
A Little of This, A Little of That
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JennGM
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mumofsix wrote:
| We vary so much in our capacities, weaknesses and gifts. Some can manage a very large family wonderfully well. Others will struggle to the extent that it is doubtful whether God ever planned it like this. I have a friend who was #8 in a family of 11. Twin brothers were born 18 months after her, then another girl. She is Catholic, pro-life, has six children of her own and is grateful to be alive. However, she feels that, objectively, it was wrong of her parents to have as many as 11 children as they were substantially neglected. (Her parents did have some significant character weaknesses, but according to older siblings coped much better when there were fewer children.) It has affected her own ability to mother her children: she struggles to be tender with them and is often much too harsh. She knows this and it hurts her so much as she loves them a great deal. I would have to say that they are quite damaged in some ways and are not coping well as young adults. |
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Great post, Jane! In a similar vein, I had a friend whose family adopted so many children. She loved her family, but she thought she was merely a pawn in the Pro-Life Cause. The kids were almost neglected because of other "causes" and got ***ually abused by another person the family had taken in. Most have lost their faith, family direction, etc. It's a tragic story.
We have a family of 14 children in our town. They made the headlines because their youngest died in the van in a car seat, because everyone forgot to get her out of the car. Tragic story. The family is good and holy, but like Cay and Rachel's posts, they have never appeared in public without looking like a rag-tag crew! So many distractions for us if you sat behind them at church! They just aren't the poster family for large families. It has always been hard for me to view the family in a positive sense.
But then the Duggars appear neat and tidy, not just for camera. And I have a cousin with 10 children, and they are always well-behaved and dressed neatly when in public, so it's not straight across the board judgment.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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JennGM
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 9:20am | IP Logged
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mumofsix wrote:
| I cannot get the hang of the yellow quotes! |
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Jane,
The formula is simple. I put spaces in between in the sample below. If you want a person's name in the quote box, you put
[ QUOTE = USERNAME ] cut and paste quote here then at the end [ / QUOTE ]
When doing this, remove the spaces.
You can also have a simple yellow box without the username just by
[ QUOTE] text here and when done [ / QUOTE ]
HTH.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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JennGM
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MicheleQ wrote:
I think one of the ways is to be sure that it's presented as Msgr. Burke does by making sure that couples know that unless you truly do have grave and serious reasons for practicing NFP even it can harm your marriage. No, not to the same degree as contraception (which in itself is intrinsically evil ) but it does damage nonetheless. I don't think that point is stressed enough (if at all!) and perhaps it would make a lot more people think twice and really consider their reasons.
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here are many couples that use contraceptives. Dh and I are eons away from that type of thinking...I have a hard time relating. From talking to teachers, the idea is we need to save them from this intrinsically evil act by presenting NFP. The presentation is skewed, showing NFP as a "safe substitute" for B/C. But the consensus is if they can convince a few couples, they have done their work and done well!
To me, it's trading evil for a lesser good (or evil depending on it's use or intent). This method is going down to their level. I don't think that's a good approach in teaching anyone, children or adults. Challenge them, show them the whole truth and beauty, help them rise to the occasion! But that's easier said than done.
We just had a priest here last Monday bringing me Communion, and we chatted some. I told him that the book Covenanted Happiness would be terrific as marriage prep reading. He just sadly shook his head and said that it's way above their capacity, their religious training, their mindset that the book would just be useless.
Sigh! It just seems so hopeless to me.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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MicheleQ
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jenngm67 wrote:
mumofsix wrote:
| I cannot get the hang of the yellow quotes! |
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Jane,
The formula is simple. I put spaces in between in the sample below. If you want a person's name in the quote box, you put
[ QUOTE = USERNAME ] cut and paste quote here then at the end [ / QUOTE ]
When doing this, remove the spaces.
You can also have a simple yellow box without the username just by
[ QUOTE] text here and when done [ / QUOTE ]
HTH. |
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And I figured out yesterday that you don't even have to use all caps - lowercase works just fine!
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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momtomany
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Martha wrote:
By remembering that those families wouldn't trade a moment without that pain even if they could. I'll take every minute I can get with my dh and dc. I hope those minutes stretch to decades, but even if they don't - I wouldn't regret a moment I've had with them. Even the ones spent in hospitals, broke, or worn out.
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This really touched me. My 10th child lived for nine days. I treasure every moment I spent with him. I also rmemember the beauty of all my family pulling together for his short life, his death, and beyond. We also have a child with a seizure disorder. His health problems have brought out so much good in our children.
Would I have asked to lose a child or have an ill child? Absolutely not. But I can see how God can bring good out of all things.
I am really inspired by all the beautiful, thoughtful posts here. Thank you.
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Mary Ann in PA
wife to MIchael, mom to Elizabeth, Becca, Tim, Peter, Andrew, Sarah, Matthew, John, Leah and Joseph
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MicheleQ
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jenngm67 wrote:
From talking to teachers, the idea is we need to save them from this intrinsically evil act by presenting NFP. The presentation is skewed, showing NFP as a "safe substitute" for B/C. But the consensus is if they can convince a few couples, they have done their work and done well!
To me, it's trading evil for a lesser good (or evil depending on it's use or intent). This method is going down to their level. I don't think that's a good approach in teaching anyone, children or adults. Challenge them, show them the whole truth and beauty, help them rise to the occasion! But that's easier said than done. |
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They are afraid and I can understand that but the words of JPII echo so strongly in all this -- "BE NOT AFRAID!". We must realize the Truth has its own power to convert. Ours is to give the fullness of truth, not water it down to make it more palatable. What these teachers need to understand is that what they are doing is WRONG because it is a lie. I fully recognize that many teachers are not well formed in this area so it of course lessens culpability - but to whom much is given much is expected and those of us who know this are in some way obligated to teach it.
Going back to Bridget's original post...
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| God isn't calling everyone to have a large family, but He is calling everyone to be generous and trusting. What can we do to help them? Any thoughts? |
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My first thought is that we simply need to get the fullness of the Truth on this issue out there. It's not, not in any wide spread way.
Jenn wrote:
| We just had a priest here last Monday bringing me Communion, and we chatted some. I told him that the book Covenanted Happiness would be terrific as marriage prep reading. He just sadly shook his head and said that it's way above their capacity, their religious training, their mindset that the book would just be useless. |
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I disagree. I have seen hearts change too many times to not know the power in the message. Thanks be to God others didn't think this way either and leave dh and I in the dark!
Quote:
| Sigh! It just seems so hopeless to me. |
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But it isn't and I know you know that. Hold fast Jenn and be of good courage. The Truth WILL prevail. We are workers in the vineyard and the harvest is plenty!
God bless!
(really slacking in my other work today. . .  )
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Martha
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jenngm67 wrote:
mumofsix wrote:
| We vary so much in our capacities, weaknesses and gifts. Some can manage a very large family wonderfully well. Others will struggle to the extent that it is doubtful whether God ever planned it like this. I have a friend who was #8 in a family of 11. Twin brothers were born 18 months after her, then another girl. She is Catholic, pro-life, has six children of her own and is grateful to be alive. However, she feels that, objectively, it was wrong of her parents to have as many as 11 children as they were substantially neglected. (Her parents did have some significant character weaknesses, but according to older siblings coped much better when there were fewer children.) It has affected her own ability to mother her children: she struggles to be tender with them and is often much too harsh. She knows this and it hurts her so much as she loves them a great deal. I would have to say that they are quite damaged in some ways and are not coping well as young adults. |
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In a similar vein, I had a friend whose family adopted so many children. She loved her family, but she thought she was merely a pawn in the Pro-Life Cause. The kids were almost neglected because of other "causes" and got ***ually abused by another person the family had taken in. Most have lost their faith, family direction, etc. It's a tragic story.
We have a family of 14 children in our town. They made the headlines because their youngest died in the van in a car seat, because everyone forgot to get her out of the car. Tragic story. The family is good and holy, but like Cay and Rachel's posts, they have never appeared in public without looking like a rag-tag crew! So many distractions for us if you sat behind them at church! They just aren't the poster family for large families. It has always been hard for me to view the family in a positive sense.
But then the Duggars appear neat and tidy, not just for camera. And I have a cousin with 10 children, and they are always well-behaved and dressed neatly when in public, so it's not straight across the board judgment. |
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*sigh* This is what my dh and I call the "but" clauses to the pro-life stance. Not saying you mean it that way, but we encounter it often.
Children are blessing BUT only if:
you can afford them - whatever that means
they are well-behaved
they are healthy
the family is christian - whatever the view of that is
they present well in public
nothing bad happen to them
the parents are sterling examples for others
they are wanted
they are planned
or... the list goes on.
Depending on which of the above stances for prudence you take or when in my life you look through that perspective:
My dh and I should not have been born.
At least 3 of my children shouldn't have been born, all of them at some points in our life would fit in there at some point.
This baby I'm carrying should not be born.
My dh and I do not agree with this "but" clause. Children are a blessing. Period. It is a fault of us as people that we do not see them as He is does. Maybe it makes us feel better about ourselves to view them as less of a blessing? Certainly it takes the sting out any guilt for not stepping up to help in many situations I think. I don't know. Time and experience as greatly humbled me in this area, much to my horror at those times. My parenting ego has been squashed most effectively many times! 
Yes, we can be "prudent". Sometimes doing "nothing" and waiting on God IS prudent, although many won't see it that way. Sometimes, even us until years later. Sometimes we never see it unfold. It will be children and grandchildren before the plan of God is seen. He's really very modest and quiet in most of our lives. It would indeed be easier and nice if He were more obvious and clear with His plans.
If ANY of those things had happened to someone with only 3 or even 4 kids - there would be an outpouring of sympathy and understanding that sometimes life just doesn't go as planned or hoped for. It happens to a large family though and the parents are all but cast out of society. Sad.
I see a mom with a ketchup stained kid with holey jeans in the cart at Walmart and think, "Somebody really got into their lunch today and plays just as hard as my dc." Yet after the park and snacks on the go, that would not be the general attitude I would receive if the situation were reversed.
BEWARE! No parent is perfect and, in my experience, the more they appear to be perfect - the further they actually are from it. jmho.
More ramblings I guess...
Time for naps!
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
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Cheryl
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I've read so many posts this morning that I don't know who to quote. I'm thinking about my experience though, coming from a home where my mother told me to make sure to get on the pill BEFORE I became sexually active. It was a fearful Catholic home. I first heard of NFP at PreCana and it felt like the right thing. I don't really remember how it was presented. My dh thought "natural" sounded like a good way to plan our family. As time went on and we learned more, we became more open to having a larger family.
We have done presentations about our experience with NFP for our parish's PreCana. The reality is that most of the engaged couples are living together, may be using contraception, many even have children already.
The timer just beeped. It's my dd's turn on the computer. I'll write more later. I just wanted to add that I agree with what someone said about it being God's timing. I think changes in attitudes and replacing fear with faith are the work of God.
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Cheryl
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Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
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Rachel May
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Elizabeth wrote:
| It also begs the question: just what is grave and serious? How can we begin to think ourselves qualified to decide timing or provision? How can we know the ways in which God will allow us to grow? Why do we think it's all about us? How can we know how our baby might touch the life of our spouse or his siblings or his grandparents or the great big world? Isn't the prudent thing to do to allow God to make those decisions and to do nothing which might thwart the will of God? |
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These are the questions that torture me along with, "Why did no one ever tell me I had to have grave matter to use NFP to avoid pregnancy?"
Even though NFP class was required for our pre-Cana, we were never told about "grave matter." We have taken 5 different NFP classes and never has that part of the Church's teaching been presented. It wasn't until after Charles was on the way that I even read Humanae Vitae. I felt so cheated!
I feel almost like a child who was handed a math workbook without the instruction to use it. Is this another case of dumbing down the curriculum for Catholics who want to be married in the Church?
__________________
Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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mumofsix
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 1:02pm | IP Logged
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Martha: the church teaches that it is good to be generous in the service of life BUT that we are not thereby excused our duty to make prudential decisions about family size. It is all in Humanae Vitae.
As Catholics we are bound to accept the Church's teaching on this.
Of-course if a couple decide for themselves, after prudent reflection and prayer, that they are being called to be completely open to life for the time being, then that is fine for them, and might be an expression of great and commendable generosity.
It would be wrong to impose that expectation on others, though, or to claim that this is what the Church teaches or expects at all times and in all cases: it simply does not.
Jane.
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mumofsix
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 1:26pm | IP Logged
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Jenn: large families are certainly fascinating. Double digit families are extremely rare here in Europe, but perhaps by virtue of being Catholic I know two personally. One family is admirable, always well presented, receiving an excellent education, etc. They have not been without their trials: the mother crashed into a terrible post-partum depression after #10. However, they have survived and are doing really well. They are VERY well organised, but have fun too, kwim?
The other is ... hmmm. The boys have buzz cuts about once every six months or so: they spend one month being bald and about three months morphing from 1970s rock musician to great yeti. For two months or so out of every six they look normal - except for their clothes. They are dug out of a bin liner of cast-offs, age 1 to 16, more or less randomly, or that is what it looks like.
Okay, come on, shout me down! Who am I to judge? Who cares about appearances anyway? It is the heart that matters. Yes, except that I personally know of several young couples who are tempted to use contraceptives because "we don't want to end up like the Xs". And if you are forced to ignore your children's appearance to the extent that they are a public laughing stock, how sensitive are you going to be able to be to their feelings, needs and wishes in general?
Zelie Martin set great store by dressing her girls well: modestly but fashionably also, though without excess.
Here is an interesting thought: my sister did a research project on large families when she was a medical student. (I think "large" was 5 or more.) She compared them to a control group of "normal" (for the culture) families of one, two or three children. In every indicator, physical and mental health, educational attainment, growth, IQ, you name it, the children from the large families came out worse ... EXCEPT for those families who had taken a conscious decision to have several children, whether through religious conviction (usually Catholic or orthodox Jewish) or simply because they liked children and wanted a houseful.
Maybe a degree of thoughtfulness and prudence is ESSENTIAL if the outcome for a large family is to be a good one?
Jane.
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 1:35pm | IP Logged
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Rachel May wrote:
These are the questions that torture me along with, "Why did no one ever tell me I had to have grave matter to use NFP to avoid pregnancy?"
Is this another case of dumbing down the curriculum for Catholics who want to be married in the Church? |
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I would say so and again exhort us all to always speak the full truth in love. I heard the Church teaching on marriage and family for the first time from Kimberly Hahn in 1994. She made it clear that NFP was a "prescription for difficulty not a vitamin pill" and those words have stuck with me. There was no condemnation in her talk, it was indeed very loving but also very convicting! That is what I aspire to and would ask that you all pray for me as I prepare to give my talk on this next week.
God bless!
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Making the Leap
