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Willa
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I've had several sick family members and have not been well myself so I haven't had much of a chance to keep up with this conversation but I thought I'd give it a shot now.
I wanted to share my "process" with Waldorf since others have shared theirs and mine was somewhat different. Like the other moderators who have chimed in, I am speaking as a member not a moderator at the moment!
I was one of those who was never very intrigued with Waldorf. For one thing, I couldn't justify spending the money on expensive materials. For another thing, I have BOYS and they actually dread art projects and manipulatives and prefer math and literature. That is just the way we are. I'd have to force them to do Waldorf and I'm not really the type, either -- crafts give me a headache. And I admit to not wanting to read much Waldorf materials after reading the condemnation by the Church.
However, I've used the great Baldwin Project literature site for years. It is a Waldorf/Charlotte Mason site publishing classic literature for free, and also markets some reprints of old books.
We come to a bit of a tricky issue, folks. Am I supporting Waldorf goals by using this site? Perhaps only if I buy their books? But the books themselves are old classics, recognized across the board by all literature enthusiasts. If they are used in a Waldorf curriculum does that make them suspect? These are real questions, not rhetorical.
Certainly I am going to think it through, and I appreciate this discussion as I've appreciated many others on this board for helping me think through what I'm doing.
It doesn't stop there, though. It is off-topic, in a way, but not altogether. --- Martha brought up A Beka, for instance-- can we use it when it has an anti-Catholic agenda? I do not buy from them anymore, after finding several shockingly ignorant and prejudiced statements in several science books. I felt queasy. I would rather my money went somewhere else. If others feel differently, as many apparently do, that is their business. I am not in any kind of authority over them.
The point I'm making -- we have to make our best decisions in light of our best understanding. Families are given special matrimonial graces -- mysterious and intimate. Sure, we may look to our fellow Catholics for help in our discernment. But our conclusions may differ. Different people make different decisions according to slightly different prudential factorings of the truth and also due to different talents and perceived weaknesses. This is legitimate.
Our board has always been unique in that it is honest about witnessing to countercultural positions in various areas -- openness to many children, wearing modest dresses, gentle discipline, -- while not expecting a uniformity of charism or practice among all its members. This is a good thing! It is one of the things that keeps me, at least, coming back to the board. I think it's something like what Martha said -- that she wants to be challenged to think and discern, but there is a subtle attitude of generosity about different choices, too, that unites us. Sometimes it gets tricky, but often it works beautifully. I think it is thoroughly Catholic. Pope John XXIII said, in an encyclical on "Truth, Unity and Peace"
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_xxiii/encyclicals/doc uments/hf_j-xxiii_enc_29061959_ad-petri_en.html
Quote:
71. The Catholic Church, of course, leaves many questions open to the discussion of theologians. She does this to the extent that matters are not absolutely certain. Far from jeopardizing the Church's unity, controversies, as a noted English author, John Henry Cardinal Newman, has remarked, can actually pave the way for its attainment. For discussion can lead to fuller and deeper understanding of religious truths; when one idea strikes against another, there may be a spark.(25)
72. But the common saying, expressed in various ways and attributed to various authors, must be recalled with approval: in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity. |
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I think that if that applies to theologians, it applies similarly to families, who are uniquely entrusted with the education of their own children as the Catechism says and are given particular graces to accomplish their own work in their own way. And also it applies to the workings of this board, because we are according to Pope Leo a sort of theologian just by being parents and Catholics. We have to be, nowadays.
We will make different decisions, but hopefully we can all support each other in our common endeavor -- raising our families in the best lights possible. And some differences can actually be beneficial and fruitful.
I am not defending Waldorf, because I can't properly -- I don't use it. I do care about some beautiful people who design a curriculum which intends to reclaim some of the good things from Waldorf back to Catholicism. I am pretty sure they have received spiritual advice upon whether this is proper to do to the extent that they do it. Is their program free of possibility of error? I doubt it since none are. Are there dangers associated with using any bit of Waldorf in the Catholic home? Possibly so -- who can say for sure? As Amy said, can we take some things that are essentially Catholic even if they are used by false philosophies? These are difficult questions, where theologians and priests might have rather different positions, though probably most would advise reasonable caution and humility in approaching the whole thing. I certainly wouldn't want to tell someone to jump right into the Waldorf waters since I don't myself -- it can get murky fast IMO. However, since it's hard to tell exactly where the boundaries are, it seems to me that we have to use the standards mentioned in the encyclical above with regard to other choices and be glad that divergences in non-essentials can be a healthy, good thing.
I guess that wasn't really about my Waldorf journey -- hmm. Though it is about my homeschool journey in a bigger sense, because I've always been attracted to egroups that are willing to discuss things in a fruitful way and that's what I've loved about this board through the years.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Lissa
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Amy, these are really good and valid questions. I don't claim to have all the answers, not by a long shot, but I can say that for me, it turned out to be not as complicated as I thought it would be.
The first thing I did was go around my house and gather up all the Waldorf books. I realized I didn't want any of my kids flipping through them---even the lovely ones with poetry and crafts had some questionable verses slipped in. *I* knew to ignore those, but how could I be sure my kids would?
There were some curricula I had really liked, but again, my use of them involved so many mental caveats & ignoring vast sections. What if something happened to me and those materials were still on my shelves? Mightn't they be really confusing to whoever found them? How would (for example) my mother, who is not Catholic, or my husband, who trusts me completely, know that I used only *parts* of those books and had very strong negative feelings about other parts?
When I thought about it like that, it was easy to get rid of the books and curricula.
And I found that there was no deficit in our lives. There has always been plenty to make and do.
Amy wrote:
| if a home/homeschool shouldn't even LOOK like Waldorf, yet there is still rhythms, sculpting, enjoying nature, reading fairy tales, doing water color...doesn't that "look like Waldorf"?? Where is the line that says "This is Waldorf" and "This is beautiful and natural and God made and wonderful and fun but NOT Waldorf"? 'Cause I think I want to move right up to that line. |
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I guess for me the answer is, "I know it when I see it."  Waldorf art does have a unique and recognizable look. The faceless figures and such. I never actually got into the drawing style much---I have a personal fondness for watercolor and ink illustrations like Alice Cantrell's art, or Beatrix Potter, or my favorite painter, Carl Larsson, so my attempts at art with the kids have tended more along those lines.
I keep coming back to the Waldorf-books-and-resources issue. If you aren't using those, then yes, daily routines are just daily routines. Sculpting is just sculpting. It isn't "Waldorf" sculpting. Reading fairy tales is just reading fairy tales. Where those things cross over a line into something different is in the Waldorf books that talk about WHY they do beeswax sculpting the specific way they do, or WHY fairy tales are appropriate in first grade. Take away the philosophy that explains their "why" for all those elements, and you have just the simple elements themselves. The philosophy comes from the books.
As you point out, spirals are shapes found in nature and there is nothing inherently "New Age" about them. It is only when a layer of specific meaning is attached to it (i.e. intent is involved) that turns a spiral into a kind of New Age symbol (as Helen described regarding the "Advent Spiral"). Perhaps the distinction can be illustrated by the example of a star. Think of the difference between, say, gold star stickers, the Christmas Star, and a neopagan pentagram. We haven't discarded the important and treasured Christian image of the Christmas star just because a star image is used in occult contexts. But you definitely know the difference when you see it.
If you are never drawing ideas from resources that speak about or portray spirals (or anything else) in the context of New Age ideas, then you are not likely to be crossing over that line.
Does that make sense?
Lissa
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JennGM
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lapazfarm wrote:
Amy, I think I understand where you are coming from.
I have been pretty outspoken in the past about my distaste for using magic and fairy stories to teach truths about science and nature. I think nature has enough "real magic"(aka the wonder of God's handiwork)in it without clouding the issue with make-believe.
Does that mean we never study anything make-believe or with a fairy tale flavor? No. Of course not. But I am careful to never confuse them with what is real. After reading anything make believe, I always, and I mean *always* take time to explain the reality, just in case there is any misconceptions in my kids minds as to what is real and what isn't. |
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Theresa, thanks for this. I can see so often in my son how hard it is to sift through reality and fantasy. When we read fiction, we also sift through the reality and the imaginative. I am very specific and walk him through. I was feeling a little alone in that practice. 
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JodieLyn
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Jenn, A hint to help with that for movies, a lot of the "making of" type of bonus features that so many movies have sometimes will help you not only know what's true and what's made up for the movie.. but they show a lot of the movie magic of how they do those fantastic things.. which helps a lot.
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Lissa
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guitarnan wrote:
The Waldorf approach is actually, from what I have read, pretty specific about why activities are done and ideas are presented at certain ages, and that's where the tie to Steiner's philosophy comes in - the part where he believes the young child's soul is still connected somehow to the spirit world (definitely not in line with Catholic teaching). So, I wouldn't ask my children to paint in one specific color based on age - that looks too much like Steiner for my personal comfort level - but I would (and have) taught them to do watercolor washes and encouraged them to paint with beautiful bright colors.
I think there are so many beautiful and lovely aspects of our rich Catholic heritage that we can share with our children and have the joy of rediscovering for ourselves. |
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Yes, Nancy, exactly. In Waldorf pedagogy every single element and activity is informed by the underlying philosophy. If you aren't using Waldorf books for instruction in how to do these activities with your children, then you are just *doing* the activity.
Of course a Waldorf-inspired homeschool would also be drawing on Waldorf ideas for academic studies, not just arts and crafts. It's a specific curriculum with set subjects being presented at certain ages. I don't see how you could follow the curriculum without using Waldorf publications. I think that's where the big difference would come in for someone trying to move away from Waldorf influences---it would require a rethinking of scope, sequence, and methods.
Lissa
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Lissa
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Willa wrote:
However, I've used the great Baldwin Project literature site for years. It is a Waldorf/Charlotte Mason site publishing classic literature for free, and also markets some reprints of old books. |
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Willa, I had forgotten about Baldwin Project. I bet I do still have links to them on my website. I too will have to ponder whether that company falls on the other side of the line. Thanks for bringing them up.
Lissa
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Martha
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Ok. Here I am again. I feel like I'm beating against a wall.
I could not care less about Steiner. I'm not even a bit attracted to his junk opinions.
If we could rename the use of these methods/materials, maybe that would help.
Most of you fine and dear ladies are talking about tools to use. As in, don't by tools from waldorf suppliers.
*I* am talking about a source on how to use the tools on a day to day basis at various grades/development levels. You presume we should just buy paints elsewhere. That's fine by me. But that is not what I need. I need a how to guide of implimentation. That is what is leading me to OM. I simply have not found a Christian, much less catholic option.
So let's say you loved the flow and style of OM, but haven't a blessed clue how to do any of it much less all of it like that and you didn't want to use OM bc of the frail but existing waldorf and thus Steiner connection - what would you do?
I have spoken very harshly on this in the past.
I still feel that way.
Yet here I am in need of an OM-ish curriculum.
So. Am I thoroughly up creek here?
Am I the only untalented wannabe artistic mom here who will gladly buy elsewhere but need to have the daily nuts and bolts?
Once I get a solid grasp and clue, I'll probably tweak it until any theosophist would scream in denial of it having anything to do with waldorf. But I am not at that point.
My dh says to treat it like guinea pig in Peru.
If that's the dish that the natives eat, then draw it being served as the
last supper. What's the word for that? For taking something and making it catholic?
I'm somewhat baffled to find myself here again. Bc I'm actually a hard liner on this. I'm actually very bothered that seton uses abeka for science. So this decision has not been easy. If I had never had an OM syllabus in my hands I would never have looked at it. But I did and I truely didn't see a concern there. So far it really seems like an answer to prayer.
I'm enjoying the dialog and listening and contemplating.
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JodieLyn
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Martha, realize that I haven't ever looked at OM. My concern though is that a syllabus, a scope and sequence.. will be that you don't really know the *how* what's listed will be taught.
Do you know someone who uses this that you could look at the actual work that you'd be doing with your child?
Maybe a homeschool convention or store that you could browse the materials?
It's hard to know what you want and know you need help and then trying to find it and not having much luck.
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guitarnan
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Martha, I don't think you are up a creek. May I restate your questions as I perceive them, to make sure I understand what you are asking?
You are looking for a Catholic, art-centered curriculum that includes daily lesson plans, lists of materials, activities for each week, etc., but you can't find one. And you've looked really, really hard.
You don't want to use non-Catholic materials that have overt anti-Catholic biases in the textbooks and learning materials.
(Here's the real question...)So, what should you do? Take advantage of a curriculum that meets almost all of your needs, but is tied to Steiner in some way, or try to find a different curriculum, one you feel is less helpful for your particular situation.
Is this a reasonable restatement of your main concerns? Please correct any misperceptions I have...
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Theresa, I am with your post 100%. You said it better than I was thinking it.
It seems abrupt that I'm not commenting on anyone else. There's lots of great stuff in this thread, but I just read Theresa's and felt such a strong "exactly" that I couldn't stop myself from posting. Carry on as you were.
Celeste
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Celeste
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This isn't a curriculum, but we've been enjoying the Artistic Pursuits art program by Brenda Ellis. Many techniques, media, and studies of great works of art from all over the world.
I think I'm struggling with the concept of an art-centered curriculum. Art is something that fits so naturally with everything else, esp. history; how do you make it the focal point? I'm just wondering academically.
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Martha
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jodie wrote:
| I haven't ever looked at OM. My concern though is that a syllabus, a scope and sequence.. will be that you don't really know the *how* what's listed will be taught. |
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Actually the syllabus shows exactly what to do each day, complete with sample pictures of results to give an idea of possible outcomes. The process manual shows any details (such as how to finger knit or beginning crochet)
guitarnan wrote:
You are looking for a Catholic, art-centered curriculum that includes daily lesson plans, lists of materials, activities for each week, etc., but you can't find one. And you've looked really, really hard.
You don't want to use non-Catholic materials that have overt anti-Catholic biases in the textbooks and learning materials.
(Here's the real question...)So, what should you do? Take advantage of a curriculum that meets almost all of your needs, but is tied to Steiner in some way, or try to find a different curriculum, one you feel is less helpful for your particular situation.
Is this a reasonable restatement of your main concerns? Please correct any misperceptions I have... |
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Yes, I think that comes very close. Although I hadn't considered OM an "art centered" curriculum. It's more of a general creativity-centered curriculum. It's not just art. Although from looking at the main lesson plans, one might think that. It's doing a lot more and interacting a lot more with what is to be learned in a gentle non-stressed out way.
vs my personal freak out to get it all figured out, planned out and scheduled into our life and then going to sleep feeling like a failure for various reasons.
Basicly I want my cake and to eat it too.
I want to have great academics AND fun while I do it.
And I am at a point where I can see how I could have done things different with my older boys (who are great guys by the grace of God) and looking to amend my ways with the younger ones. I've lived a bit and learned a bit on this home schooling journey. I can really see how an OM style might have greatly benefited a couple of my kids and would like to start later (like now) than never.
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guitarnan
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Martha, I appreciate your explanations. I'm guessing my homeschooling approach is completely opposite to what you are trying to do/find in terms of what you would like to have available to you on a daily basis (you want detailed lesson plans, I want daily flexibility, and lots of it).
I honestly don't know if a Catholic, off-the-shelf, creativity-based curriculum exists, one that you could buy, open up the box and start working with instantly. I'm hoping and praying that enough resources are out there to help you.
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cathhomeschool
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I feel for you, Martha!
I love art and crafty stuff. I don't know much about Waldorf or Steiner but I did buy and try Oak Meadow last year hoping that it would be easy and fun and script for me the stuff that I naturally did with my older two but was having a hard time getting to with my younger two. I wanted rhythm and a natural flow to our days. I wanted fun! It turned out that OM was too hard for me to follow and wrap my brain around. Part of it, I'm sure, is that I'm not used to following lesson plans. It goes against the grain. Also I didn't understand or agree with the need for line drawing or having to tell a story from memory or the use of smooth edges in drawings. I didn't understand why I should tell a story about haystacks and then have the kids draw pictures in order to teach them the letter A, but we did it anyway. I tried the story approach to math too. After a couple of weeks of trying to "get into" OM I gave up. My kids still love the modeling clay and use it to create all sorts of people and things (but they don't like the smell). They occasionally ask to finger-knit or knit with needles. They love listening to me read. I see that the "philosophy" inspired things like what I mentioned above (probably not the right way of saying this) were the things that I didn't care for and that felt forced and I discarded. In the end I felt that OM was a waste of time and money and I've gone back to Math U See, great read-alouds, art books like "Discovering Great Artists" and "Draw Write Now" and asking the kids to trace or write 5 excellent letter A's on their paper. This is what I learned from CM books and what works best for us. With my older two we used portable watercolor sets when we went on nature studies in the backyard. This was much of our art curriculum too. Haven't done that with the younger two but I need to.
I don't know if there is another creativity centered curriculum, but I'll give it some thought. I would think it easier to find separate curricula (like Math U See for math, structured book lists for history, curriculum for science, curriculum for arts/crafts). Do you plan on keeping each child at their own "grade" level? (ie. Did you plan on using the same syllabus for all the kids and then tweaking, or was each child going to do his own thing?) Personally, the only way I've been able to piece things together is to have everyone studying the same thing but at their own level (so more difficult books for older kids, etc). Math is the exception. When I used OM I had both of my littles doing the same stuff. I can't imagine keeping track of several kids at different levels with different syllabi and plans, but then that's definitely a weak area for me!
If you do choose to use the OM stuff, I would wade through it carefully and discard what doesn't make sense. Sorry if none of this is helpful!
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lambchopwife
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Martha,
What about the Christian Heritage Art program? I know it might not be what you want but you don't have to weed out stuff ( like any of us have extra time  ) or always wonder in the back of your mind if this or that is ok. I also thought that Seton sold Lesson Plans for their art books. I know that this would make Art a seperate subject and it sounds like that's not what you want. My girlfriend who teaches religion at a private Catholic school uses the Seton Art through faith book for her catechism class and the kids really love it. I hope you find something that fits your needs and eases your peace of mind.
Cheryl
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LucyP
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So if you weren't happy with certain "waldorf" items being in your home - thinking for my own situation of a small pile of books ranging from very anthrosophical to something like "Simplicity Parenting" - what would you do with them? Try to sell them? Pass them on to the local Steiner school? Bin them and have a quiet sob over wasting sooo much money on a dead end?
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KackyK
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Lucy good question. The "Simplicity Parenting" is a bummer. As I was reading I could definitely pick out the author's bent...which I didn't know would be in there till I saw it! It's a good reminder to always read those author bios before I read something.
I have a good friend who I had told about the book, before I read the book, wanted to borrow it when I was done. I'm thinking should I give it to her? I know she doesn't know anything about Waldorf. I guess I'll totally inform her of what is there so she'll see it too and she can make the decision.
I think I'd just used bookstore them!
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LucyP wrote:
| So if you weren't happy with certain "waldorf" items being in your home - thinking for my own situation of a small pile of books ranging from very anthrosophical to something like "Simplicity Parenting" - what would you do with them? Try to sell them? Pass them on to the local Steiner school? Bin them and have a quiet sob over wasting sooo much money on a dead end? |
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Lucy, I don't know. I have a little pile of books that I gathered that are in limbo. There were some books I had no idea were Waldorf -- I bought them thinking there were Catholic or Anglican on the Liturgical Year. I couldn't figure out why the poems and ideas kind of missed the mark on saints and feast days. This was years before I even had children. It wasn't until recently that I made the connection they were Waldorf-influenced or based.
Then all the books published by Floris books, I'm not so sure I want them, either. I'm trying to decide on Elsa Beskow and Sibylle von Olfers books. I'm trying to gauge on my own comfort level. Some of these books just have traces, just a over-emphasis on the natural level, as if this was the end-all (I'm not even mentioning the fairy books right now). Not all the books I read mention God overtly, but I do grativate to nature books that make us wonder, and think back to the awesome God who made us and creation, instead of reveling in nature itself.
I am not reading them to my sons nor do I read them, so why keep them? I won't resell because I don't want other people to use them. I will probably trash them soon, but it is hard to throw away books that are well-made.
My aunt and I used to frequent used booksales together and she used to pull out very heretical or anti-Catholic books in the religion section and pay to throw them away. She just didn't think that anyone should be reading them!
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LucyP
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I was wondering about selling them, Kacky. But the thing that worries me is that the Church has said the ideas behind Waldorf are totally wrong, as I understand it. I know that much of the practical out-working is helpful and works in my family - much emphasis on rhythm, art, staying imaginative and not too heavyily factual with littles, special nurturing for little bodies (lots of sleep, hats, warm natural fibres), few toys and only open ones etc. And that is not exclusive to Steiner's ideas - I feel he saw a truth and made up a weird philosophy to "explain" them - but if I sell on a book that contains ideas in opposition to the church is that right? I wouldn't sell a book about Wicca or the bigotry filled extreme protestant texts we used to own, so I am not sure what to do.
If these books/ideas are "poisonous", do I pass the poison on? For me as a specific individual the ideas have come between me and God to an extent, and could easily have been worse had not I been woken up in time. I am thinking I need to make a clean sweep as even a hont of it here and there, such as reading a favourite Waldorfy blog, has me thinking "ah, but it is not that bad" - whereas the Church says it is bad so *for me* (and not necessarily for another person) it is a bit of a chopping off my hand that causes me to sin situation.
And what if I pass that same problem on to someone who has no faith to guide them back to the truth? Argh!
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Helen
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| Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 7:31am | IP Logged
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LucyP wrote:
| I feel he saw a truth and made up a weird philosophy to "explain" them |
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Personally, I would phrase this the other way. Since error is not attractive and not based in the natural law, error needs something beautiful to dress it up , sustain it and lead us to be attracted to it.
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Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Article on Waldorf elements (
Topic Closed)
