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JodieLyn
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Martha I think that's where a lot of us are.. it seems clear to me that Steiner's writings are condemned.. which would be Waldorf. And I certainly don't think anyone here is wanting to include anything Steiner taught.
But how far does something need to move from what is condemned before it's ok to use. That's a difficult question. And I guess I move over to the side that says.. if they are claiming a connection.. then it's too close for me.
I guess the best bet would be to look up the people that made the program you are looking at and see if they're moving away from Steiner or if it's just another form of the same teachings.
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G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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JennGM
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While that "feeling" is a good warning to help us know when we're in something that isn't good, sometimes we don't have it. When I read things about Steiner's work, I can understand why the Church would go to such lengths on this subject. We might not recognize all the errors on the surface.
When I was doing research on Oak Meadow, I found the founder's history, which gives high praise to the influence of Steiner:
Oak Meadow Trilogy
And then the explanation on how Oak Meadow is close to a Waldorf, but has some differences. Oak Meadow and Waldorf
I know they are supplemental materials, but there are loads of Waldorf Parent resources for sale and promotion at OM.
It was too close for comfort for me.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Waverley
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I can't thank you ladies enough for the thoughtful, respectful discussion and answers to the original post. I have struggled with this matter alone for so long it is wonderful to be able to discuss it here and gather all of your opinions and knowledge.
For me there are really 2 issues I am struggling to deal with:
1. Use and purchase of quality toys/art products.
2. Use and purchase of curriculum/books that are labeled "Waldorf" or espouse these ideas even if not labeled "Waldorf."
As to the first issue, using natural, beautiful items in our home has always been important to our family. We desire to continue to do so. MaryG asked earlier and, in light of Jen's information about product suppliers, could we possibly come up with a list of companies/suppliers that do not contribute to or support Steiner/Waldorf causes? I would like to support these businesses and order my toys and art supplies from them.
As to the second issue, the information here has been very helpful for me to allow me to discern for my family what is best.
Thank you!
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Waverley
wife to Dh for 19 years, dd (16), dd (11), dd (8), ds (6), dd (4), dd (9-13-1996)
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guitarnan
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I'm not personally familiar with too many companies, but I am guessing that some other members will chime in. (How fun...new shopping sites!)
I'm so glad, Waverley, that you are finding all of this information helpful. There's so much to sort through, isn't there? That's one of the things I love about 4Real - when I have questions, there's probably someone here who has information that can help me.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Erin Lewis
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I am new here and am really appreciative of this thread. I have not yet begun homeschooling - my oldest will be Kindergarten-aged in the fall - but I have been doing lots of reading in trying to determine how we will start out. One blog I have been reading is a natural parenting/child development/Waldorf homeschooler blog. I first went there because I know the woman who writes it and I was mostly interested in the first two things mentioned. However, the Waldorf ideas are certainly intertwined in other topics, and the tricky part is weeding out what parts are purely child development and what are more anthroposophy-related. This thread has really opened my eyes to the fact that some of the things I'd read on that blog that made me say, "Huh???" were probably rooted in anthroposophy and Steiner's teachings, things like, "Our children chose us to be their parents" and "children are spiritual beings on a spiritual path," which just don't sound right at all to me... they definitely sound New-Agey. I will be reading with much more caution now.
I am glad to hear Magic Cabin mentioned as a company that doesn't appear to support Steiner's beliefs at this point - I have made purchases from them in the past. I too would love a list of companies that sell natural toys and supplies - felt, beeswax, wool, etc. - and do so in a purely innocent way, with no intent to slip in the anthroposophy stuff! I just clicked over to A Child's Dream Come True... and they mention that they are "Your source for Waldorf supplies for art, handwork, crafts, etc." Then, and maybe this is off-topic too, I wonder which of the books are too closely inspired by Steiner? Looking at the list on A Child's Dream Come True, I noticed titles such as Seven Times the Sun, Heaven on Earth... but also some that sound more innocent like You are Your Child's First Teacher. How to distinguish??
I am glad this forum exists to discuss these types of things! Above all, I want to remain true to Catholic teaching and to use it to guide my children.
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JennGM
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Erin Lewis wrote:
I am new here and am really appreciative of this thread. I have not yet begun homeschooling - my oldest will be Kindergarten-aged in the fall - but I have been doing lots of reading in trying to determine how we will start out. One blog I have been reading is a natural parenting/child development/Waldorf homeschooler blog. I first went there because I know the woman who writes it and I was mostly interested in the first two things mentioned. However, the Waldorf ideas are certainly intertwined in other topics, and the tricky part is weeding out what parts are purely child development and what are more anthroposophy-related. This thread has really opened my eyes to the fact that some of the things I'd read on that blog that made me say, "Huh???" were probably rooted in anthroposophy and Steiner's teachings, things like, "Our children chose us to be their parents" and "children are spiritual beings on a spiritual path," which just don't sound right at all to me... they definitely sound New-Agey. I will be reading with much more caution now.
I am glad to hear Magic Cabin mentioned as a company that doesn't appear to support Steiner's beliefs at this point - I have made purchases from them in the past. I too would love a list of companies that sell natural toys and supplies - felt, beeswax, wool, etc. - and do so in a purely innocent way, with no intent to slip in the anthroposophy stuff! I just clicked over to A Child's Dream Come True... and they mention that they are "Your source for Waldorf supplies for art, handwork, crafts, etc." Then, and maybe this is off-topic too, I wonder which of the books are too closely inspired by Steiner? Looking at the list on A Child's Dream Come True, I noticed titles such as Seven Times the Sun, Heaven on Earth... but also some that sound more innocent like You are Your Child's First Teacher. How to distinguish??
I am glad this forum exists to discuss these types of things! Above all, I want to remain true to Catholic teaching and to use it to guide my children. |
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Hi Erin, and welcome to 4Real. I'm glad you're finding this helpful.
That site "A Child's Dream Come True" you mentioned is full of Waldorf materials. There are still tons of brand-name Waldorf supplies, like Stockmar.
I guess there are two ways of supporting, in my mind. Buying the brand-name that are made by anthroposophic companies, like Stockmar, and the second way is an additional monies being given by the company that sells them. No one is saying you can't; it's a prudential decision, like whether you buy things from China.
I'm familiar with most of those titles on their site, and they are very Waldorfy/anthroposophic. Amanda Soule's books and "Heaven on Earth" are published by a very New Age company. And both are very New Age titles. The book "Heaven on Earth" itself is hard to swallow from a Catholic viewpoint. The idea is to create the perfect environment, provide the best parenting, nurturing and you will create a heaven on earth. It is very New Age. I couldn't wallow through much.
I'm not sure about Magic Cabin.
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Family in Feast and Feria
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Erin Lewis
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Right, that is what I was saying, that A Child's Dream Come True looks pretty hardcore-Waldorf to me... sorry, I reread what I typed and realize I wasn't clear on that... it is another site I'd heard of a few times and I thought I'd take a look to see. I'd love a list of sites and products that are not made by anthroposophic companies. I would like to avoid those that are.
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lambchopwife
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I really hope I don't make anyone upset here because that is not my intention. This site has been such a blessing to me over the years. I have laughed and cried with all of you.
I have been really bothered by all of this Waldrof talk. If we as Catholics all know that Waldorf is bad then why are we siting around talking about if we should be using Waldorf methods etc? My biggest worry is that new moms on here such as one in an earlier comment had made about going to the Serendipity site and then buying Waldorf math from a link or something from there. This is what really concerns me. We are Catholics. We belong to Christ's only church. That is a privillage. There are many wonderful Catholic homeschool providers who work very hard to supply us with wonderful CATHOLIC books etc. I'm am sure that we all can find our art supplies from new stores as had been suggested earlier. I also want to ask why are we trying to justify using or implementing some of these elements in our homes? Please don't take this the wrong way I am really wondering about this. I 'll tell you why I decided to post about this here today. I was looking through the posts and saw something interesting "Simplicity Parenting". Some people on here are reading it and telling us all about it. It sounded great so I looked it up an Amazon. It is writing by a Waldorf person. Why are we taking suggestions from them on parenting and not resources from the church etc. I'll leave with this, in a morality class I took a few weeks ago the teacher said that the church teaches that if it is evil then NOTHING GOOD can come from it. I guess that's my whole thought nothing good comes from evil period. It doesn't matter if it's wrapped up in pretty paints, crayons, or fuzzy little animals.
If I offended anyone please forgive me because it is not my intention to hurt anyone.
Cheryl
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~ Be not afraid to tell Jesus that you love Him; even though it be without feeling, this is the way to oblige Him to help you, and carry you like a little child too feeble to walk.~ St. Therese
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LucyP
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The question about how comfortable are we in using the materials - well, for me the answer is increasingly I am NOT comfortable at all.
I thought I was mature enough in my faith, intelligent enough, well-educated enough to suck out the juice and spit out the pips or whatever the well worn phrase is. But as I started dabbling at the edges, thinking that other Catholic home educators do so I'll be fine too - after a while, I found myself up to my chin and starting to panic. It was such a bit-by-bit process that I didn't notice how deep I was getting - it was when my son expressed a desire to start some academics again and my first thought was "but he hasn't had his full number of springs yet" that I woke up a bit.
I looked at my book shelf which had suddenly got quite a few Waldorf titles on it, and I looked at my google reader which was only about 25% Catholic blogs, and I looked at my sitting room - where the Crucifix and holy statues had sort of faded away while the nature/seasons table had become the focus, complete with gnome!
For me, it all needed to be stripped away as I was aware of a sense of spiritual oppression - I had felt the prickling when we first began to change to using Waldorf elements but I thank God that I was woken up.
Now we still have some beeswax, and some wool felt, and a good few toys from Waldorf sources, and lots of wet on wet watercolour goodies. I am in the process of discerning what is and is not useful and healthful to us spiritually among that. I am in the mind of using it up and then buying "normal" things again - still with the idea of using good quality materials, but not being so precious about it. Because there is always the stupid Steiner reason - you use natural toys and art materials to help the incarnation of your child. Do I believe my child is still incarnating - no. But I do worry as was said up above that I am opening a door in my child's mind/heart/soul to be predisposed to New Age.
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Helen
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lambchopwife wrote:
| I took a few weeks ago the teacher said that the church teaches that if it is evil then NOTHING GOOD can come from it. I guess that's my whole thought nothing good comes from evil period. |
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Cheryl, this is true.
In this discussion though there is a distinction between the "means" of the Waldorf school and the physical materials themselves.
lambchopwife wrote:
It doesn't matter if it's wrapped up in pretty paints, crayons, or fuzzy little animals. |
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True --if-- the means are wrapped up in the ends such as the Advent spiral wreath.
However, material goods are not necessarily evil such as watercolor paint.
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Ave Maria!
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Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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Helen
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Ave Maria!
As a moderator, I'm going to put a temporary lock on this thread since its contents are rich and deep. For me personally, it took me many months to crystallize my thought process. I would like to offer a pause for new members and veterans so that they may also have a chance to mull over this profound topic.
Our Lady, Seat of Wisdom
Pray for us!
Jesus Our Light,
Be our Guide
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Ave Maria!
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JodieLyn
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As moderators, myself and others, would like to thank you for your patience as we deal with a very time intensive discussion. We do have our own homes and children to care for and educate. These temporary locks are a factor that really helps us make the more intense discussion possible.
This dicussion has been going very well. And for the most part everyone participating is being charitable. Thank you!
We now invite you to continue this discussion in the same charitable fashion.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Lissa
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Hi! I am hoping I might contribute to this very thoughtful discussion. I have had quite a journey involving Waldorf in the past 14 years and understand the concerns many have regarding this issue.
My own attraction to materials I later came to know as "Waldorf" began, like so many young mothers in the 90s, with the beatiful toys and dolls in catalogs like Natural Baby. Those simple wooden toys and lovingly handmade dolls really spoke to me!
When my children were a little older and I was doing a lot of reading about different educational philosophies, I encountered Waldorf materials and found so much inspiration in them: their emphasis on wholesome daily rhythms and reverence, and arts and crafts and nature study and fairy tales. These are all things I believed--and still fervently believe--to be very great goods, the stuff of which a beautiful childhood is made.
I began to collect Waldorf craft books and supplies. I looked to Waldorf toy suppliers for gift ideas for my children. I was also keenly interested in Charlotte Mason's ideas about education and saw much crossover between certain elements of CM and Waldorf.
I don't think I really had very strong radar for New Age influences back then. We moved to a small town in Virginia when my oldest daughter was 6 years old, and there was a Waldorf school in our town. Many of my friends and neighbors sent their children there. I attended a Christmas bazaar at the school and loved that my kids got to try candle-dipping and woodworking. When I walked into the Waldorf kindergarten room with its rose-colored walls, silks, wooden toys, and dress-up costumes, I turned to my friend and said, "I've just realized what my favorite decorating style is. It's Early Waldorf!"
As my interest in Waldorf increased, I began to read up on its background, and I was surprised to learn about Steiner and anthroposophy. For the next few years I was a somewhat outspoken voice both here at 4Real and on my blog about "Waldorf-inspired with caveats." I even wrote a post called "If you love Waldorf so much, why don't you marry it?"  In that post (and many others) I spoke about my serious concerns about anthroposophy--yet mentioned many Waldorf books & curricula which I had found useful, albeit full of anthroposophist ideas to wade through and avoid.
Eventually I began to read about *the Church's* position on Steiner and theosophy/anthroposophy. Discussions on this topic began to change my understanding. A comment from my best friend Alice especially spoke to my heart:
"This makes me recognize that there may be a potential problem in letting children become accustomed to an environment noticeably inspired by or reflective of anthroposophy. Waldorf materials are beautiful and attractive, and I may use them without buying into Steiners philosophy, but if I nurture my children in the midst of a pervasive Waldorf atmosphere, is there a chance I may be priming the pump for them to feel comfortable in a New Age environment as adults? Will New Age remind them of home?"
That insight gave me cause to rethink the wisdom of having Waldorf materials, no matter how lovely, in my home. From that point on, I no longer felt at ease having materials published by anthroposophist companies in my home. I do not want my children to have any sense of warm attachment or connection to materials that contain New Age elements.
At that point I removed all the blog posts I had written recommending Waldorf materials and books, and I posted a statement explaining my change of heart. I am Waldorf-inspired no longer. My children still color and paint, and we still read fairy tales, but we do not rely upon any Waldorf suppliers or resources for those activities.In a nutshell, I realized I don't want Waldorf to feel like home.
I share this journey in response to the original post's question about using Waldorf materials and supplies. In the two+ years since I made this decision, I can honestly say we have not missed those materials at all!
Warmly,
Lissa
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Mary G
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Lissa wrote:
In the two+ years since I made this decision, I can honestly say we have not missed those materials at all!
Warmly,
Lissa |
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Lissa, thank you for your experience and "take" on all this. Where do you get your art supplies, craft books and other things that are NOT Waldorf but still nurture that creative spirit in your children?
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MaryG
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my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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guitarnan
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Yes! Inquiring minds want to know!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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JennGM
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The quote that Lissa just posted from Alice has been very motivational for me. I have prayed and thought about this at length. When my children leave the nest, will they look for things that evoke home and family to him? I do not want them to be attracted to further things in New Age because it evokes home.
We are so immersed in our own time and culture that we many times cant see the forest for the trees. It is much harder to recognize New Age in today's culture because it is so prevalent. But because the Church has warned me about certain things on New Age, I want to make a concerted effort to keep it out of my home. I came to the very conservative personal decision that I dont want it to even look like Waldorf, because it might send conflicting messages to my children.
The more I thought about it, thinking back to what the Church said on New Age and Steiner, the more I could see how elements of our Christian culture were being used and corrupted by Steiner to promote his own philosophy. Waldorf doesnt have a corner on art, natural materials, creativity, child-centeredness, gentleness, etc. I feel like Im being gypped out of my own Christian heritage by having it called Waldorf!
This quote from the New Age Vatican Document was so helpful for me (emphasis mine):
Jesus Christ, the Bearer of the Water of Life wrote:
| Perhaps the simplest, the most obvious and the most urgent measure to be taken, which might also be the most effective, would be to make the most of the riches of the Christian spiritual heritage. |
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That passage motivated me to find the original and various alternatives to what is posed as attractive in Waldorf. I started thinking of how much the Church has encouraged art and music and creativity, even to the recent Letter of John Paul II To Artists. I started compiling of list of things that are attractive in Waldorf but are originally found elsewhere. It doesnt need to be from Waldorf to be good, beautiful, creative, natural, artistic, nurturing.
I recently read a book from a Catholic mother/writer Therese Mueller about art in the Christian home, which I posted her introduction on my blog. Her perspective encouraged me. It will be more work, but I am trying to make the most of the riches of the Christian spiritual heritage in bringing art and creativity in my home.
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Lissa
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Mary G. wrote:
Lissa, thank you for your experience and "take" on all this. Where do you get your art supplies, craft books and other things that are NOT Waldorf but still nurture that creative spirit in your children?
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Well, to be honest I found that my kids like nice sharp Crayolas better than the beeswax crayons anyway!  I stock up on those every fall when Staples has 28-count boxes for a quarter (or some crazy price like that).
I have bought tube watercolors from Cheap Joe's online, or when Michael's has a good sale/coupon. But (as I confessed in a post a while back) I find the cheap drugstore trays of pan paints to be better for my littles.
I bought a ton of large sheets of watercolor paper many years ago and fold/tear those into smaller pieces for lots of postcard-sized paintings (an idea I got from Jenn @ Cozy as Spring). Dick Blick and Cheap Joe's are good sources for sales on paper.
My kids always seemed to prefer Sculpey to beeswax (this is true confessions time for real!)  and once I shook off the sort of guilty feeling I had about their using polymer clay instead of something organic, I relaxed and accepted my fate as perpetual baker of small Sculpey items. We even have a special cookie sheet reserved for the purpose! 
I have not scouted around much for sources of wool felt---we seem to have a lot of that left from my Waldorfy days. I bet there are Etsy shops that sell it.
For craft ideas, I usually look at Alice's blog first!!
Edited to add: also as my girls have gotten older, they seem more interested in sewing/quilting/crocheting, so we look to the crafty blogs for ideas there. Also, re watercolors, this year we got into watercolor journaling on the postcard-sized pieces of paper--inspired by another Alice (Cantrell) & a watercolor journaling DVD she linked to.
warmly,
Lissa
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amyable
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Lissa, (and anyone) I am only picking on you because I'm lost. I have been pondering these ideas for many months now, and I'm having trouble understanding... if a home/homeschool shouldn't even LOOK like Waldorf, yet there is still rhythms, sculpting, enjoying nature, reading fairy tales, doing water color...doesn't that "look like Waldorf"?? Where is the line that says "This is Waldorf" and "This is beautiful and natural and God made and wonderful and fun but NOT Waldorf"? 'Cause I think I want to move right up to that line.
Please take this in the loving and searching manner in which it is intended...I've had a long day and am having trouble expressing my thoughts gently!
I guess I just keep thinking like another poster said, so many of these things were Christian or neutral FIRST, then Steiner ruined them. So what's wrong with using beeswax? And a nature table, and fairy tales? And a spiral? Weren't there spirals in nature (so God made) before New Age gave it a different meaning? If New Age people gave The Cross a different meaning (which they probably have) does that mean we as Catholics should stop using it?
Again, I'm really lovingly searching/questioning, not attacking. 
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The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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guitarnan
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Amy, I love beeswax and watercolors...but using them doesn't mean my home looks like Waldorf. (LOL, it just looks messy...)
The Waldorf approach is actually, from what I have read, pretty specific about why activities are done and ideas are presented at certain ages, and that's where the tie to Steiner's philosophy comes in - the part where he believes the young child's soul is still connected somehow to the spirit world (definitely not in line with Catholic teaching). So, I wouldn't ask my children to paint in one specific color based on age - that looks too much like Steiner for my personal comfort level - but I would (and have) taught them to do watercolor washes and encouraged them to paint with beautiful bright colors.
I think there are so many beautiful and lovely aspects of our rich Catholic heritage that we can share with our children and have the joy of rediscovering for ourselves.
The original question on this thread related to Waldorf materials - for me, personally, it feels too close to supporting the spread of Steiner's ideas for me to want to buy things from Waldorf suppliers. I would rather buy from someone else.
(P.S. - I feel the same way about buying Chinese-made goods, by the way, so I avoid doing so wherever possible - sometimes it takes me years to find certain things because of this!)
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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lapazfarm
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Amy, I think I understand where you are coming from.
I have been pretty outspoken in the past about my distaste for using magic and fairy stories to teach truths about science and nature. I think nature has enough "real magic"(aka the wonder of God's handiwork)in it without clouding the issue with make-believe.
Does that mean we never study anything make-believe or with a fairy tale flavor? No. Of course not. But I am careful to never confuse them with what is real. After reading anything make believe, I always, and I mean *always* take time to explain the reality, just in case there is any misconceptions in my kids minds as to what is real and what isn't.
To me, in my head and my heart, there is a clear line of distinction,but the line is a bit harder to distinguish from the outside.
For instance, if I let my son read Dragonology and then compare the development of a dragon egg to that of a chicken, is this crossing the line? Not for me because the emphasis is always on which is real (the chicken) and which is not (the dragon).
If I read my dd a Alaska native story about how whale and raven created the totem pole,and then we study and look at real totem poles, is this crossing the line? No, because it always comes back to what is real and what isn't. We know how totem poles are made because we watched a man carving them.
What about math gnomes that are so popular? That may be fine for some, but I personally don't go there because I do not want the very real ideas of adding, subtracting, etc cemented in my kids minds together with gnomes and fairies and make believe. It's a line i have drawn.
However, using acorns as math manipulatives? Fine. We know what acorns are and they are quite real.
What about making flower fairies? Fine, as a lark. It is a craft project and therefore open to make-believe.We'll just be sure to know where flowers really come from so there will be no mistake about that either.
Anyway, you see the line has to be clear in your own mind, and most importantly in the minds of your children, even if it doesn't seem quite clear to others on the outside.
How can we make the distinction more clear and still use the elements which have been corrupted by Waldorf??
Go ahead and do wet on wet watercolor, but make that just ONE painting technique amongst many you teach.
Go ahead and use beeswax, but make that just ONE sculpting medium among many others you use (sculpey, clay, wood, stone, papier mache, etc).
Go ahead and read about the "wind wizard" and the "root children" and "trickster" and "how elephant got his trunk". But just be sure to finish it off with a reminder about the truth behind the myths. Unlike Steiner, we don't want our children floating around in some esoteric daydream all of the time. We want them grounded in the truth, which is really just as marvelous.
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Article on Waldorf elements (
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