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Mackfam
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Non Nobis
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 7:24am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth, your article was beautifully written - an expression of your heart. It stands as it is written - a testament of hope and an alternative dose of "reality" for large families.
I'd like to address a few points about the idea of marriage, marriage as a Sacrament, ways we live our marriages to emulate the Holy Family, not a tv family, and how discussion here is handled regarding our husbands and the Holy Sacrament of Marriage.
I'd love for us to move beyond the idea of Jon and Kate's tv family and rather open our hearts to the example of the Holy Family and discuss the practicals, the challenges (within the bounds of charity), and some of the ways we as wives bend our wills to grace when living out our vocations in our family, and especially as we live it out in the context of a large family. Let's move the discussion of marriage, vocation, and the reality that can be here - Vocation of marriage-nursery for virtue.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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RamFam
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 8:57am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| To me, it would be great television of Kate sat on the couch and looked at Jon and said, "You know, I have a problem with being short-tempered and just saying whatever comes to mind. Today, I saw you flinch when I cut you to the quick. And I'm so sorry. Will you forgive me and help me to improve?" |
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My husband and I are hoping that this is what they have planned in the end and that it is all a big publicity stunt. (Of course to the children's detriment.) This is what I am praying for anyway; reconciliation that is. I was so saddened to first hear of this as they do represent large families to many, a Christian large family at that.
Continuing to pray for all moms and wives who are less than perfect, living in less than perfect marriages with less than perfect children.
Peace,
__________________
Leah
RamFaminNOVA
Tom ^i^, Kyle (my Marine), Adeline '00, Wyatt '05, Isaac '07 Philip '08,Michael '10, and John Xavier Feb '13
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Lisbet
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 9:03am | IP Logged
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Quote:
| continuing to pray for all moms and wives who are less than perfect, living in less than perfect marriages with less than perfect children. |
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I don't mean to sound snarky here, but that would be ALL wives!
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 9:10am | IP Logged
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I was not criticizing the policy against "husband bashing". I can totally see the validity of the rule. At the same time, there may be people who come to this Forum who need to really talk about the problems in their marriage and feel unable to go to anyone else (priest or counselor) but feel too intimidated to post for fear of being accused of "husband bashing" or that they would be the odd men out when all they see is people talking about how great their husbands are. I mean, I wrote something innocuous a month ago that my husband approved of and a moderator edited it without my consent because she thought it might embarrass him. And my comment in this thread was in response to doubts that so many people beyond this Forum could relate to Jon & Kate's marriage problems.
And I wonder if it says something that so many of the large families seem to be unfairly compared more to Jon & Kate rather than the Duggars. They both have shows on the same channel, sometimes following each other. Jon & Kate are having a bigger media blitz now but the Duggars media exposure has lasted longer. I think that it re-enforces my point that the general public see more of themselves in Jon & Kate, whereas Jim Bob and Michelle make it look so effortless and easy. I know that we should all aspire to be more like the Duggars, but a lot of people take comfort in seeing the struggles that other people face.
Some of the criticisms labeled and Jon & Kate are fair. For instance, I worry about the wisdom of continuing the show when it is starting to have so many detrimental effects on their family. And whenever they used to complain about their old house being too small I've often thought about the large families on this Forum who would have probably loved to have that house.
However, I think that Kate gets a load of extra criticism in the general public that isn't always fair--I wonder sometimes if it were the husband acting that way if he would be criticized as severely. I mean her husband is accused of nefarious activity, and she is held to blame for it.
And it's really hard to know what is going on in someone's heart. Yes, her behavior is less than exemplary (she has even admitted it numerous times on the show)--but we don't know what struggles she is having in her heart. I suspect that she has some anxiety issues--on top of normal mommy anxiety issues. I do wonder if being in a reality show has helped ease them or exacerbated them.
I look forward to checking out Jennifer's new thread on the Vocation of Marriage. I've also been thinking a lot lately about how inadequately prepared most people are for the sacrament of Marriage....perhaps that deserves a thread of its own as well.
__________________
Barbara
Mom to "spirited" dd(9), "spunky" dd (6), "sincere" dd (3), "sweet" dd (2), and baby girl #5 born 8/1/12!!
Box of Chocolates
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 9:21am | IP Logged
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Barbara C. wrote:
| I think that it re-enforces my point that the general public see more of themselves in Jon & Kate, whereas Jim Bob and Michelle make it look so effortless and easy. |
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Idk. Do you think that it is that people enjoy watching people self-destruct? In a lot of ways, reality television reminds me of the gladiator ring.
If the husband and wife "bicker" it also has more of a soap operatic appeal (what's gonna happen? are they going to stay together???).
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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RamFam
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 9:22am | IP Logged
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Lisbet wrote:
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| continuing to pray for all moms and wives who are less than perfect, living in less than perfect marriages with less than perfect children. |
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I don't mean to sound snarky here, but that would be ALL wives! |
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Precisely! ;)
__________________
Leah
RamFaminNOVA
Tom ^i^, Kyle (my Marine), Adeline '00, Wyatt '05, Isaac '07 Philip '08,Michael '10, and John Xavier Feb '13
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bfarmmom
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 9:28am | IP Logged
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Praying for this family. The whole situation is really sad. He didn't want to do the show anymore and she did. She is traveling a lot and he is home with the children. I was hoping as a couple they would say " You know, we choose our family. Our family is hurting and we need to heal it. Our marriage means more and our children mean more than all of this fame and fortune."
and I also get the comments comparing our family to these large TV families.
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Peace,
Kirsten
ds13,dd12,dd10,ds7,dd6, dd 4, ds 2
Sonlight Garden
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 10:16am | IP Logged
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Yes, I do think people in the general population enjoy watching other people self-destruct. There's a reason that Jerry Springer and Maury Povitch have been on the air so long. People think to themselves "I/My life may be crazy but at least I'm/it's not that crazy."
I think a lot of people look and Jon & Kate and say to themselves: "Look at Kate being stressed out by taking care of her kids and losing her temper. Maybe I'm not an abnormally bad person for doing that sometimes, too." "Look Kate and her husband are bickering with each other. Maybe I'm not the only normal person with a flawed marriage."
I AM NOT SAYING THAT I THINK THIS IS A GOOD THING. This is not the standard that we should aspire to. I am making general observations based on things that I have seen in my own life in addition to discussions that my husband and I have had in relation to Sociology courses he teaches on Marriage and Family. My reference to "exceptional" marriages comes from the context of Sociology; I also believe that is the term that Gregory Popcak uses in For Better, Forever!. (I don't have the book in front of me but I want to say it's the "exceptional 10%".
Again, I totally understand the Forum's policy; I am just OBSERVING that it could lead some people to an incorrect conclusion. It's just like when someone walks into a Catholic Church and sees someone kneeling in front of a statue, they might assume that the Catholic is worshiping the statue when that is not the case at all.
I understand and empathize with large families who get compared to any television family, and I can see it being especially annoying to be unfairly compared to one that you find repugnant. I just felt called to offer some defense and context for Jon & Kate Gosselin because I just felt that they have had some unfair (and some fair) accusations hurled at them and in a sense have been vilified. In the end they are people like all of us--struggling with temperaments, vices, and temptations.
Apparently, I have touched a real nerve, although I think that some of my comments have been misunderstood or misconstrued. I'll bow out of the discussion now.
__________________
Barbara
Mom to "spirited" dd(9), "spunky" dd (6), "sincere" dd (3), "sweet" dd (2), and baby girl #5 born 8/1/12!!
Box of Chocolates
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 10:33am | IP Logged
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Barbara C. wrote:
| Apparently, I have touched a real nerve, although I think that some of my comments have been misunderstood or misconstrued. I'll bow out of the discussion now. |
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I apologize, Barbara, that if in light of the discussion my question or comment seemed to imply anything more than its face value. I didn't mean to imply anything about any of your other thoughts on the matter. I think you raise a lot of points that are valid and charitable. I don't like being cynical, and reading your thoughts helps me to see this situation from another perspective.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Mackfam
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Non Nobis
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 10:45am | IP Logged
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BarbaraC wrote:
| Again, I totally understand the Forum's policy; I am just OBSERVING that it could lead some people to an incorrect conclusion. |
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Barbara, I do understand now what you are saying about forum policy. When you first brought it up, it was a little confusing, almost pointed, but I do understand after further clarification. Thank you though for allowing us to reiterate the forum's policy on respectful treatment of husbands, for providing the context for us to express the reasons behind the board policy. Sometimes, I think that's helpful for us all and it is probably a good thing for those that read here, but don't post.
Quote:
| I just felt called to offer some defense and context for Jon & Kate Gosselin because I just felt that they have had some unfair (and some fair) accusations hurled at them and in a sense have been vilified. In the end they are people like all of us--struggling with temperaments, vices, and temptations. |
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I want to underline something you have said here. Whether we agree or disagree with this family portrayed in their own reality show, you have chosen to "assume the best" and that is commendable and not being discredited here. This is something we strive for on this forum. I think we are all really on the same page here. We can and should offer prayers for this family - the few circumstances I have seen portrayed make me want to  for those children. But, there is also room to disagree with perceptions of marriage, large family life, and the standards to which we all try to lift our domestic church's towards. This is where you're sensing the friction. It is not in your goodness to assume the best of this family, it is in the way the Sacrament of Marriage is being portrayed, now perceived, and foisted upon those who live the Sacrament in the context of a large family. You have done a good job of pointing out the unfairness of that.
BarbaraC wrote:
| Apparently, I have touched a real nerve, although I think that some of my comments have been misunderstood or misconstrued. I'll bow out of the discussion now. |
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Barbara,
You don't need to feel as if you should do this. Your sense of heat is accurate, but it is not directed at you, rather at the idea that a mediocre representation of marriage is an ok one. I do understand what you're saying - that Jon and Kate meet some couples right where they are, and that sometimes that is a good thing for them. But, our point is that there is so much more and that a constant barrage of images portraying marriage, family life, and the vocation of wife and mother in this way have an effect of convincing society that this *IS* the way it is. That this is it. And, it's not.
I can only change society through my humble offerings within my family, within my domestic church. I come here to be refreshed and inspired, to be lifted up, pointed and sometimes challenged to charity and generosity in living out my vocation. I can only pray for Jon and Kate. I can change myself. I think this is the direction we should take this. I don't want this to feel like a pointed criticism of you. Let's move this to a positive opportunity for reflection and discussion so that our offerings in our vocations become polished and honed in the school of virtue that is marriage.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: What she said....
