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Cindy
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One more factor I think about wrt this discussion is the 'ticket' that a degree can provide.
I know my degree gave me a chance to do things that I had no idea I could do and gave the the confidence to do it. When I was a teen I never would have imagined this awesome high tech job I one day ended up doing.
I wonder if I need to help steer my kids towards those tickets, if they don't see the need or can't comprehend the future. Or can they play catch up once they were to realize they want to have those opportunities? Some kids might have a harder time catching up than others... and might not try.
I want to give them help to to be creative, and all the things Willa just posted (which I agree with), but don't want to be negligent and they find themselves one day ready to jump on a train and the ticket is not ready and in their pocket. I am on both sides of the track.
(I'm into train analogies these days)
Don't have this one figured out, but thought it might fit here.
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Cindy in Texas
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
| It's interesting; we have the same situation wrt freelancing and benefits and risks. And they are definitely a part of our identity. But I don't see them as allowing us more control. I see them as allowing us less control... |
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Hmm, Elizabeth, I'm thinking about this as I run around dispensing orange juice and cold medications to a whole crew of sick children.
What I can come up with as the difference-- might it possibly be the alternative it is being compared with? Both times Kevin and I moved away from a more corporate, managed type lifestyle towards a more independent one, it was because he was tied down and discouraged and burned out, or he expected that he would be. Our story is a bit like Courtney's in that way.
So in our situation, going for the freelancing, though it brought an income drop, also gives us a bit of margin and leverage that's important to us. But in another situation, the trade-off might be rather different.
Our medical issues obviously make things a little complicated in today's world of high medical costs, and that's probably true of a fair proportion of us.
I suppose if there was no choice and DH HAD to check into a jobs with benefits in order to pay for Aidan's medical expenses (since he is quite obviously the very definition of uninsurable) our "choice" would be to make the best of it. We probably all do a lot of that too -- choosing to make the best of a non-ideal situation-- and it's probably a good life lesson to teach our kids.
It may come up yet.... we discern it periodically.
This is an interesting discussion. Nice to get outside the box and into the tricky issues.
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Willa
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Cindy
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WJFR wrote:
This is an interesting discussion. Nice to get outside the box and into the tricky issues. |
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I agree, Willa and am enjoying reading this discussion very much.
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Cindy in Texas
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Cindy
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Courtney wrote:
| Cindy, I must respond to what you wrote. I used to wonder which was more stressful as well. My dh was in the corporate world with a large well-known company for 15 years. By the end of his time there, he was coming home totally beaten down. I had never seen him so down and disillusioned before. He ended up resigning from this job and taking a job with a small privately held company. He was hired by the owner who had been one of his clients at his previous job. We discussed the job change at length b/c the pay was less and the benefits were less. Almost 2 years later, I'm still convinced we made the best decision. No amount of money can make up for the stress that he was under, IMHO. Yes, it would be nice if the salary and benefits had been the same, but we've both learned how valuable it is to really enjoy what you do and work for people who are family oriented. Gotta run. |
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Courtney-
I think we are living parellel lives in Houston and Dallas! 
I am so glad to hear it is working well for you all, though I was sad to see you leave Houston just when I got to know you all.
What you described is really the same story for my dh. Oh, his field was brutal and he is a loyal hard worker. The past year he has worked for a small firm, very small, lots less money, crummy benefits and the boys and I are always looking for ways to make/save money.
The place is not perfect, but these guys are family oriented and we don't worry about the pink slip every quarter when financials come out and layoffs come down.
Again (I am a broken record, I know) if our kids *see* this. My boys know almost all invovled with my dh's challenges-- between that and reading Dilbert I don't think they want to go near a corporation! But they also know about the first 15 years of my dh's career when corporations still had loyalty to employees. And, of course I tell stories of the great high tech firm where I worked.
I guess if we can talk about it all... they can see the paths.... they can take more ownership. Incidently, boys think Willa's dh has the perfect job!
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ladybugs
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WJFR wrote:
We probably all do a lot of that too -- choosing to make the best of a non-ideal situation-- and it's probably a good life lesson to teach our kids.
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I think that how we choose to respond to things is one of the greatest gifts we can give our children.
I say this because of living in a small house. This is a huge issue to my dh and so it is to me. I could either grow resentful (which I have had my moments) or I can be receptive (I have had those, too). If I can model that everything presents an opportunity as opposed to a problem...then I feel like I have given them a great foundation in how to manage their lives.
Just my thoughts in relation to what Willa posted....
Thinking lots as I dispense OJ and tea to only one sick kid, so far....
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tovlo4801
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Cindy wrote:
One more factor I think about wrt this discussion is the 'ticket' that a degree can provide.
I wonder if I need to help steer my kids towards those tickets, if they don't see the need or can't comprehend the future. Or can they play catch up once they were to realize they want to have those opportunities? Some kids might have a harder time catching up than others... and might not try.
I want to give them help to to be creative, and all the things Willa just posted (which I agree with), but don't want to be negligent and they find themselves one day ready to jump on a train and the ticket is not ready and in their pocket. I am on both sides of the track.
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I don't have this figured out, but I'm becoming more and more sure that I'm on one side of the track. I'm not pro or anti college, but I think I'm very strongly in favor of one not necessarily being better than the other. I'm fairly flightly though so tommorrow I might be on the other side of the track.  Keep that in mind as I share my thoughts here.
I believe you can play catch up if a kid realizes they want those opportunities. I know of several people who have returned to school to get degrees because something they wanted jobwise required it. Sometimes it's even better to go later because your maturity and commitment are stronger. It's true it will not be the same as going right away, but that's true of everything isn't it? Those who go to school right away miss out on whatever you do if you don't go right away. You can only choose one path at a time.
I think it's noble to want to give your kids the ticket. The thing is what if you buy them a ticket to the wrong destination? What if you've deprived them of all sorts of other things while you were having them secure a ticket to a place it turns out they weren't supposed to go?
I lean toward thinking that decision needs to be made ultimately by the kids. It's the kid's life and they will have to live with whatever the consequences of the decision are, so ultimately it really should be their's to make.
But...I do think it would be wise to make sure they have some information to make that decision on. We all have the benefit of our experience and lots of thought put into what "we" think is best. Our kids don't have all that behind them. We can share that. You talked earlier about having lots of discussions. Perfect. Willa posted that article about the value of higher education. I think it would be wise to have our kids read that and other articles. They need to know what higher education can offer you. They should gain some understanding of how likely it is for a kid to go to college unprepared/immature and just pick a major (and life path) because that's what you do and it's time to do it. They should have some understanding of the reality of the difficulties in a lifestyle that involves a high salary. They should have some understanding of the reality of the difficulties in a lifestyle that involves low pay. Nothing is perfect. Everything has costs and benefits. Everyone is well-suited to different situations. They should have that information as impartially as we can give it to weigh and make their decision.
I think they need to decide what ticket to buy, but they need to be informed consumers. I think as parents we can help with that.
Just my 2 cents from my brain as it stands today. We'll see what tommorrow brings.
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Willa
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Cindy wrote:
I wonder if I need to help steer my kids towards those tickets, if they don't see the need or can't comprehend the future. Or can they play catch up once they were to realize they want to have those opportunities? Some kids might have a harder time catching up than others... and might not try.
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We are cross-posting again, Cindy. Just like old times! 
This is one of the big reasons I dropped unschooling a few years back. My daughter would say, "What's the use in math?" She didn't want to do it. I gave her wide spaces of math-free time. But when my kids get "behind" in a subject they are not fond of, they don't tend to have an easy time catching up, and they end up just excluding that whole thing from their identity, their profile. She feels a bit unhappy that she is "behind" now, that her 7th grade brother is almost caught up with her in that subject. Now, I think she will catch up. She is very motivated now because of her college goals. But should I have let her have all that no-math time? Was I dropping the ball a bit? Her self-esteem has been affected a bit by it.
If I am unschooling again, I have to find a way around that. Well, why not just say that to them?? Sounds so simple! It has been working, to an extent.
I don't want them to be excluded from life choices either, and I agree with you that a degree can open doors. Plus, it's a worthwhile thing in itself to have higher education. I do not regret mine, though mine never "paid off" financially since I have not ever worked much on a paid basis since I graduated.
One thing I see going on a bit below the surface in this discussion is that EVERYTHING you do excludes you from some life choices. When I got married I forwent my chance at becoming a nun, at least, for the foreseeable future. When I had children, I excluded the choice to live a childless life.
We assume that it is better to get our college degrees before we settle down and have our kids, and perhaps it is right to assume this in general. But probably not in every case. I know people who got their degrees while raising a family, and these were not all women either. Should they have gotten a degree before? Should those that went for the degree have rather brought a beautiful family of precious souls into the world? Is there a universal answer besides to try to do what is right?
Perhaps my daughter's math experience has taught her some lessons more important than staying on track with math. Perhaps I would still be fighting her now if I hadn't stood back a bit then. We just don't always know, I suppose..... so we have to make decisions according to what seems right, not expedient.... I guess. Though I don't mean to set up a false dichotomy -- sometimes expedience is right, after all. But I don't think it always is.
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Kathryn UK
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I just posted a bit on this subject on another thread, but I'll add a bit more here ... If my children opt not to go into higher education at 18 or 19, it won't worry me as I know from experience that it is possible to catch up later. I went to university at 18 and left after a year. I went back ten years later and took a BA followed by a Ph.D (which I finished while my dd was tiny). My mother took two degrees through part time study - one in theology in her 40s, and one in psychology in her late 50s.
I also lean towards the higher enjoyment but less money school of thought when it comes to future careers. We have gone down that route - dh is now a partner in a small company, earning less than he did with a corporate employer 10 years ago and with less financial security, but also with less stress, shorter hours and the ability to work from home two or three days a week.
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juliecinci
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Elizabeth wrote:
Okay, playing devil's advocate here. What happens if Noah gets a job at Starbucks and falls head over heels in love? He wants to get married and start a family, and SOON (all not out of the question at his age) Can he support a family as a barista? |
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Yep. He can. But they won't live very well.
Still, that's not my call, is it? He will face the real world idea that if he wants a family and he wants to be able to buy a house some day, he'll need to do something more about it. Not sure how that changes anything.
Elizabeth wrote:
| If you were the parents of the girl he loves, would you hand her over to the guy at Starbucks? . I think this is where Mary's "reality check" comes in. I've got nothing against most baristas--some of them have really been there when I've needed a friend -- but I'm not sure it's a good longterm plan... |
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But why are we talking about long term plans right now? He's 18. He is still living at home. If he finds that there is a girl he loves and wants to make a life with, that might change everything about what he wants to do with college or not.
Also, one of our good friends in town is a Moroccan without a degree from college. He speaks English as a second language. He worked his way up from the bakery in costco to now being offered the change to manage a store. Cashiers at Costco earn $17.00 /hour. That's more than some nurses start at!
The benefits are terrific.
This Moroccan friend is married with two kids and is buying his house.
As I looked at him, I realized that what has made him successful is his gregariousness and his ability to work hard. Both of these qualities are in abundance in Noah.
So I am trusting that he will find his way.... it's his life, not mine. I can't prepare him for what he doesn't see as his future.
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Cindy wrote:
More musing...
What if we talk to our kids, show them options, meet people that have gone on both courses (my boys have seen many varied examples to date-- including:
-their tennis coach
-my dh's best friend who is an anthestiolgist, very weathly *and* loves his work
- their 25 yo cousin who is still unhappy and searching- bouncing jobs)---
-dh himself and me talking about my previous work....
What if we focus on talk, being open, discussing. Can we then trust them to choose their way and we offer support and guidance?
I grew up in a generation where this was not discussed- ever. So, went the route I thought I was supposed to- college, etc. But it took me a long time to 'find' who I was.
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Cindy, this is precisely what we've done including some coerced education "just in case." The "just in case" stuff only served to damage our relationship and caused Noah to back off of some of the subjects he really loves. Ironically now, he is all back into math (a subject we nearly ruined for him through public school) and is studying it for fun.
I don't know where this will lead. He is no poster child for unschooling leading to a great career. But what he is, is a kid who knows his own interests so thoroughly that he won't sacrifice them on the altar of earning money... not yet.
Love is not on the horizon that he sees, either. But hey - he's 18~! If this conversation were about a 24 year old, I might feel differently.
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Hi Richelle.
You spoke some things that really resonate with me.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| I think MY mindset is like your son's. What's funny is I'll probably get slapped with a son who is corporate ladder climbing bound. lol |
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Lol! Don't laugh but we have one. My middle child is convinced that he will be a millionaire... this is the kid who has earned $3000 selling cookies over the last three years. I think I'm a believer!
tovlo4801 wrote:
I'm afraid I might be terribly naive, but I'm probably the kind of person who'd want to marry the barista.  |
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Let me share a bit personally here. Hope that's okay. I grew up affluent. My father was a lawyer and we lived in a bedroom community for Hollywood (Farrah Fawcett and Lee Majors lived up the hill from us, Sarah Vaughan and David Gates' daughters were in my class in high school, Dennis Weaver was a few streets over and more...).
We belonged to country clubs and tennis clubs, took resort vacations, I got a brand new car on my sixteenth birthday and had college totally paid for by my dad (including sorority fees).
Still, my parents' marriage blew up at the end of my high school years. I saw how living in this world of money and status preyed on them. My first roommate in college (from my high school) lost her parents to infidelity too and she too was from wealth.
What hit me then was that I knew I wanted to marry someone with character and I wanted to ensure that we were never wealthy. Seriously.
I don't like the culture of wealth. I don't like the expectations, the materialism, the values or the lifestyle.
I LOVE middle class living. We have been very poor in our marriage (we owned one car for years, I couldn't afford homeschool curricula for years too and only used the library, we lived in a tiny rental and so on). Jon has an MA and yet that has never equaled a great wage. Ever. He always works multiple jobs to provide for us.
We laugha t how contractors without college always seemed to be earning 6 figures while Jon with his MA couldn't break the 50K mark for most of our married life (working multiple jobs and businesses)!
We are only now (together) earning to the level where money is adequate and not a daily issue for us. And I love it.
I told Jon recently that I don't even want to earn more. I turned down a major homeschool curricula who wanted to sell my book because I wanted to avoid adding income and headache to our lives. This company's carrying of the book would drown my business and family life.
I don't need it.
So I don't think earning money is the measure of what it takes to be a successful adult, parent, husband or family. It is important to not be financially drowning (I hated that feeling). But I can honestly say I didn't like being affluent better. In fact, I preferred struggling financially to wealth.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| God will provide what is needed right? If we're following the path that He has laid out for us, we needn't fear. |
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I have meditated on the Sermon on the Mt. many times related to provision. Jesus is very clear that we need not worry about these if our motives are tied to the kingdom of God and his righteousness. I have to say... this has proven to be true in our family.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| We are by no means in poverty, but we are also by no means well-off. We've made choices in our life that have left us without the conveniences many enjoy. Sure, we have financial envy sometimes, but generally we're happy we made the choices we have. |
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This sums up what I've felt too.
Also, I learned something from Rich Buelleer (radio host) years ago. He said that a lack of funds is the impetus for more creative endeavors and businesses than almost any other factor.
Brave Writer was birthed when I knew I needed to replace income I lost when my editing job was terminated. I find that interesting.
So yeah, I do think it is possible to have a family and not have a lot of money. I prefer it that way.
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juliecinci
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Elizabeth wrote:
I couldn't find whether children were covered or what kind of maternity plan they had . |
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I used Starbucks as an example because it does happen to be a company that takes care of its employees and doesn't require college degrees. Still, that's funny about children and maternity plans.
Elizabeth wrote:
Apparently, Starbucks employees make more than teachers in some towns . And there is a corporate ladder there to climb. So, does that somehow make it a better career choice or a worse one? |
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I guess it would depend on what the person working wants out of life, right?
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Sarah
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Hmmm. . .this is all very interesting. When I was in school college was pushed and it was ALWAYS the message to major in whatever you wanted to---follow your dreams. Study in college whatever you want to and now I've watched many many people my age trying to find jobs that will pay back that "dream" and are trying to survive in jobs that have nothing to do with what they majored in. I'm just throwing out this info to argue a little.
So, is a totally impractical college eduaction worth it? My sister the dance major, my brother the ceramics major making $26,000 with a stay-at-home wife and two little kids with a blood disease requiring (nearly)monthly blood transfusions (so she couldn't work-they wouldn't survive daycare)? My husband, a doctor on the other hand jumped through al the educational nonsense hoops (except where morals were compromised) and now is a trult Catholic Family Physician who doesn't prescribe BC/sterilize and is so cooperative of natural mothering, etc. If he hadn't played the "game," we would be one less truly Catholic physician (and he has such courage to step up to bat against moral issues!).
On the other hand, he loves music, plays the piano beautifully, etc.
So, is it wrong to tell your kids that some of the work they will do is non-sense, but will more them forward toward their goal of being who they want to be? Can we tell them to jump through those hoops, and at the same time give them things to really educate them. I'd say, yes. Do we educate our boys especially to think about providing, because this homeschool wouldn't be the same if my husband had not been who he is today (although he has taken a huge pay cut to be a Catholic doc--like he makes 1/4 of what he would if he were dabbling in serious evil--that's better though, to not be rich).
Is it a waste of money/time to pursue a college degree in something that won't pay? I don't know. Do people realize that many of these college, even CAtholic, have people teaching ideas that are seriously contrary to truth? I thought about it recently and most of the influential professors/teachers I had a supposedly Catholic liberal Arts college in the midwest were liberal and actually were doing more harm than good. It is in spite of them that I've become who I am today!
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Sarah, I'd agree with you that sharing what the potentials are of each lifestyle is critical to good parenting. The issue I have is how far do we go in "requiring" our kids to fulfill requirements, jump through hoops when they don't want to?
For us, of the three older kids, one doesn't want to and the other two do.
As far as liberal arts education that doesn't pay... that used to be the point of a college degree. Now they are so expensive it is often not considered a worhtwhile investment. That is sad.
And I attend Xavier University and would love any of my kids to go there. What a great faculty and ethos about service and love for the other and making your life amount to something that matters beyond school, dating and manking money.
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Willa
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Sarah wrote:
| Hmmm. . .this is all very interesting. When I was in school college was pushed and it was ALWAYS the message to major in whatever you wanted to---follow your dreams. Study in college whatever you want to and now I've watched many many people my age trying to find jobs that will pay back that "dream" and are trying to survive in jobs that have nothing to do with what they majored in. I'm just throwing out this info to argue a little. |
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Y'know, I'm realizing this discussion is not altogether about unschooling. It seems that whether kids are unschooled, homeschooled in a structured way or go to Catholic or public school, they will face some of these decisions. There isn't really a "class" or school subject that tells you how to prepare for your future career. We all seem to do that quite informally, depending on our abilities, our family income, and our family's aspirations for us, largely.
I'm always struck by how much most kids are influenced by what their parents think is important, and also by the environment they grew up in. Up here where we live a lot of the kids (mostly not homeschooled)seem to choose "trade" jobs like contracting, etc. If they go to college, a large percent of them go to the local city college or state university. In that way, they are largely like their parents and reflecting their parents' goals and the upbringing they received. The way they school doesn't have a HUGE deal to do with it.
We have been sort of talking about unschooling *limiting* our kids' choices but I wonder if that's really always the case. Could it not be somewhat the other way around? I think many people unschool their kids in the hope that it will open up choices, not narrow them down. Is there a reason that should not be so?
I agree with the ideas of parents discussing choices with their kids and showing them they might have to hold their nose and run the rat race for a little bit. But it seems to me that ALL concerned parents need to discuss that kind of thing with their kids.
I think I may be missing a bit of the picture, but I just wanted to unpack that part of our discussion.
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Willa
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Cindy
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WJFR wrote:
We have been sort of talking about unschooling *limiting* our kids' choices but I wonder if that's really always the case. Could it not be somewhat the other way around? I think many people unschool their kids in the hope that it will open up choices, not narrow them down. Is there a reason that should not be so?
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Willa, I think you have hit upon an important point here.
Simplifying, there are two measures we can strive for:
-how the outside world views our dc
-how much our dc learn about themselves (this encompasses, faith, family, and everything cmish, etc)
Unschooling is seen by outsiders to 'limit' in that our child may not end up with that standard portfolio, SAT scores and traditional routes to the 'tickets' the world has laid out so nicely for us.
But, unschooling hopefully will allow our children to see deeper, into the world and it's opportunities and themselves. It may as you say, open them up to thinking outside the box.
I think a child can look at these issues of life in traditional environments. But I think unschooling is unique in that it is allowing children to follow their interests and take responsibility for their education.
They could chose a traditional method to educate themselves, but the choice is theirs, their life is theirs and I think that must have tremendous impact. Them choosing the method instead of the parent doing so.
Julie- I appreciate the glimpse you gave us into your childhood. It was very poignant. I am going to print it off for my dh and sons to read.
This discussion has uncovered a lot of issues and deep seated ruminations I have had for the past months. I thank you all for your insights-- very much.
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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juliecinci
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Kathryn UK wrote:
| My mother took two degrees through part time study - one in theology in her 40s, and one in psychology in her late 50s. |
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I love to hear this! It's what I'm doing - theology degree in my 40s. Best decision I've made. And I am so glad I didn't get an MA in my 20s. It's been such a rewarding experience to go to grad school after having living as an adult for twoenty years.
Kathryn UK wrote:
| I also lean towards the higher enjoyment but less money school of thought when it comes to future careers. We have gone down that route - dh is now a partner in a small company, earning less than he did with a corporate employer 10 years ago and with less financial security, but also with less stress, shorter hours and the ability to work from home two or three days a week. |
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It's interesting how often this comes up - the reduction of income and stress go together very often.
I know lack of funds can create stress too (not minimizing that one at all having lived it). But to find that balance between a healthy home life, career and income seems to be the juggling act of our age.
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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Kathryn UK
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juliecinci wrote:
I know lack of funds can create stress too (not minimizing that one at all having lived it). But to find that balance between a healthy home life, career and income seems to be the juggling act of our age.
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I agree. And add in career enjoyment to that balance . Encouraging our children to think through the possibilities of this balance and to be prepared to think outside the box when considering their future is an important part of home education IMO. It seems to me this is closely related to encouraging children to think in terms of vocation in the Catholic sense, rather than jumping on the secular "career" or material success bandwagon. Anybody have any thoughts on this?
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Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06) (11/07)
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Elizabeth
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I'm going to give this one more try:
I absolutely think that what we need to do is to guide our teens and even younger towards always, always looking at education as preparation for vocation. To that end, I also think that we might need to be "the bad guy" who reminds the child occasionally that preparing oneself to answer God's call will inevitably require some sacrifice and obedience. We can't always do exactly what makes us happy or what we are passionate about and be faithful to our vocation. I don't think 18 is too young to learn that.
I took more than a handful of classes that neither enthused nor inspired me in college. They were required courses. Was it the ideal educational experience? No. Did I learn something about the subject? Yes.And later, when I was older and wiser, I was frequently grateful for having learned those particular things--things I didn't think I wanted or needed. Did I learn even more about diligence and discipline? Absolutely. And even if I never worked in the field in which I majored, those lessons would serve me well, perhaps even better than the courses I absolutely loved.
Education isn't limited to school. I believe that with all my heart and I have lived that wholeheartedly in my adult life. But education isn't limited only to those things which make us happy, either.
I don't think we can be Catholic without suffering. As our children become adult Catholics, they will have to understand that there will always be sacrifice and discipline required of them, not by just by people, but by God. It's our job as parents to help them understand that the easy road, the one that makes them happy today, might not necessarily be the joyful road. I think we do them a disservice if we say that education is all about doing what you want.
No matter what their vocations, our children will be accountable to God and to other people. We need to equip them--by showing them when they are young--to be prudent and disciplined and sober and faithful good stewards of the talents and abilities bestowed on thm by their Creator. To expect any less of them would be to fail in our jobs as parents.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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ladybugs
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I was thinking about this discussion yesterday and what I was thinking was....
Is the unschooler helping guide and form by modeling and through discussion?
Also, isn't this about motivation?
And can't "jumping through the hoops" be a viable choice to the unschooler?
Just pondering...
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Maria P
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: What is unschooling?
