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MichelleW
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| Posted: Aug 21 2008 at 2:23pm | IP Logged
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Mary G wrote:
| As you can see, these devolve into a debate between factions and we don't get any further forward. |
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I think this is a personality issue. I agree that many people do not like any form of conflict and therefore are uncomfortable with dissension. However, there are also people who learn through debate. I am one of those people and I would strongly disagree that debates do not move us forward. To varying degrees debates stretch and enlighten us.
However, I understand that as moderators you all have to walk a fine line.
Thanks for all you do.
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Michelle
Mom to 3 (dd 14, ds 15, and ds 16)
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lapazfarm
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I do see your point, Michelle. Debate can be a healthy way to hash out concerns, learn, stretch, and grow. And there are plenty of places online for us to do just that.
But how many places are there like 4Real?
I don't know about all of you, but to me, 4Real is a very special place. A place where we encourage and strengthen each other in our homeschooling, mothering, and marriage vocations, and as children of God. It is a safe haven and a refuge from the ugliness and bitterness of the world. A place I, for one, sorely need in this day and age.
My wish is that we keep this place free from political discussion of any kind.
This place is just too valuable--there is too much at stake here to risk spoiling it for the sake of a lively debate on ANY topic, especially a topic as volatile as politics.
I count this place among my many blessings every day. Lets please keep 4Real as a safe haven, so that we have at least one unspoiled place to come and experience the love of God through our fellow travelers. Free of stress, free of strain, and full of love.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Mary G
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Beautifully put, Theresa!
Again, don't forget the Nine week novena that starts on Sept 1st ... prayer is such a powerful tool!
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Aug 22 2008 at 12:16am | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
I do see your point, Michelle. Debate can be a healthy way to hash out concerns, learn, stretch, and grow. And there are plenty of places online for us to do just that.
But how many places are there like 4Real?
I count this place among my many blessings every day. Lets please keep 4Real as a safe haven, so that we have at least one unspoiled place to come and experience the love of God through our fellow travelers. Free of stress, free of strain, and full of love.
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That is beautiful, Theresa.
Is it awful of me to like that about this place because I don't have any prejudices against people and their opinions simply because discussions of this kind rarely happen? I kind of like not knowing these things about people--it makes it easier for me to be charitable in my thoughts (I pray and hope I am always charitable in my actions!).
There are certain clues in regular posts about people and their political views, but I, personally, like to "stick my fingers in my ears" so that I can continue to celebrate what we share in common without distraction.
Religion is volatile enough--even among faithful Catholics--but the combination of faithfulness to the magisterium and lack of politics certainly helps make this place somewhere that is refreshing rather than draining!
There are edifying debates that take place on this board, but somehow debates about politics are different.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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mathmama
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Philothea wrote:
Regarding the death penalty as compared with abortion:
Personally, I oppose capital punishment because I do not trust the State to make these sorts of life and death decisions without making mistakes (look what happened to Terri Schiavo, and she didn't even do anything wrong!), and I believe the State's power to kill individuals is inherently at risk for corruption and misuse by people with agendas (see Stalinist Russia or Communist China).
That said, there is nothing in Catholic teaching that requires me to hold this view. It is true, John Paul II was a vocal opponent of capital punishment, but he spoke as an individual, not as the Vicar of Christ, on that topic. The Catechism states that to the extent possible, we must show mercy, but when there is truly no other way to keep others safe, the death penalty is within the legitimate right of government. We can debate all day about whether it is ever necessary in the modern world, but it will just be a debate until the Church says something definitive.
I am also quite sure that the number of innocents killed by the death penalty in this country does not begin to approach the number of innocent souls killed each year by abortion. In fact, the number of guilty souls and innocent souls put together that have been killed by capital punishment in the entire history of the USA probably doesn't equal the number of babies killed in modern abortion clinics in a single year. The comparison is apples to oranges.
Abortion causes millions and millions of deaths, all innocent and totally defenseless babies. And it's treated like a God-given right in this country, which is absolutely disgusting. Heaven must weep over this.
May Mary, the Mother of God, who endured more than a little inconvenience, hardship and sorrow when she chose to give our Lord human life, pray for us -- and may God have mercy on us. |
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This is so very well put and describes what I believe to a "T". Just to give some numbers, since the death penalty was reinstated in 1977 around 1200 people have been put to death  *Today*, abortion will kill about 3,700 innocent babies Shear numbers tell us where the urgency is.
Beth
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folklaur
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| Posted: Aug 22 2008 at 10:39am | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
But how many places are there like 4Real?
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I have to be honest, this is exactly why I am really surprised that *any* political discussion in allowed here at all. I hadn't realized that that had changed, and I have to say, I don't know if it was the best decision. I loved the fact that it was a "politics free zone." Even "Informational bulletins" as it were. For what? Those notices come through from enough different sources I don't see why it needs to be "allowed" here at all.
Politics is just TOO sensitive and people will get upset and this place is just too special to mess it up with that. imo. 
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Vanna
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cactus mouse wrote:
lapazfarm wrote:
But how many places are there like 4Real?
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I have to be honest, this is exactly why I am really surprised that *any* political discussion in allowed here at all. I hadn't realized that that had changed, and I have to say, I don't know if it was the best decision. I loved the fact that it was a "politics free zone." Even "Informational bulletins" as it were. For what? Those notices come through from enough different sources I don't see why it needs to be "allowed" here at all.
Politics is just TOO sensitive and people will get upset and this place is just too special to mess it up with that. imo. |
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I made an assumption that everyone here would be like-minded on this issue. I am sorry for that. It was not my intent to upset or anger anyone. That being said, I feel it is sad that we would not be able to discuss a VERY important social issue with intelligent, Godly women.
We discuss things other than homeschooling here so I didn't think it would be a problem. I was wrong and it is a mistake I won't make again.
Sorry.
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Wife to K  Mommy to B (ds18) and G (ds8)
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folklaur
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Vanna wrote:
I made an assumption that everyone here would be like-minded on this issue. I am sorry for that. It was not my intent to upset or anger anyone. That being said, I feel it is sad that we would not be able to discuss a VERY important social issue with intelligent, Godly women.
We discuss things other than homeschooling here so I didn't think it would be a problem. I was wrong and it is a mistake I won't make again.
Sorry. |
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Vanna -
Honestly - this was not directed at you. You even asked in your OP if it was allowed, so you weren't sure.
But as you can see people did get upset, and even angry, and I hate when people get upset, and I want to fix it . Even though I don't personally agree with Obama, and find his views such that I wouldn't vote for him, I can not stand the scare tactics and propaganda that the gets thrown around either (NOT saying you or anyone did that, just that it is done.) Nor did I like it when it seemed that some people were getting a little attacked for having a different view, or at least a different source for information. It did seem like only half the conversation was being allowed, while the other half was being called "debate".
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RamFam
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Vanna wrote:
| I made an assumption that everyone here would be like-minded on this issue. |
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I assumed the same, so it is quite enlightening to hear the apposing arguments from someone I can actually respect. Thank you, everyone, for all the information so I can make a more informed decision.
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Leah
RamFaminNOVA
Tom ^i^, Kyle (my Marine), Adeline '00, Wyatt '05, Isaac '07 Philip '08,Michael '10, and John Xavier Feb '13
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MichelleW
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| Posted: Aug 22 2008 at 2:10pm | IP Logged
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I think I am still in keeping with the original topic, and you already know where I'm coming from, but I don't understand why people who are bothered by this kind of thing don't just avoid the thread.
I don't visit other forums because I don't want or have time for "debate for debate's sake," but here are women who strive to be faithful, living real lives, and I value their opinions. If the poster were to write something like "Warning: Political Thread" does it *really* sully the entire board? Readers make choices about which threads they will read, and which they join.
I am thankful that this thread was not shut down. I noticed that most of the angry words had nothing to do with the political issue per se, but with whether or not this thread should be permitted to exist. Without addressing my own political leanings, I am glad that it was permitted to exist.
Tomato throwing may now commence...
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Michelle
Mom to 3 (dd 14, ds 15, and ds 16)
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MichelleW
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Oh, Leah,
Much better said than mine. Yours was charitable and to the point, and it's what I would have said if I had half a brain...
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Michelle
Mom to 3 (dd 14, ds 15, and ds 16)
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CrunchyMom
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MichelleW wrote:
I think I am still in keeping with the original topic, and you already know where I'm coming from, but I don't understand why people who are bothered by this kind of thing don't just avoid the thread.
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Self-control, lol. Really, you are right--those who don't want to join in these discussions don't have to, but somehow, I felt compelled to follow the discussion anyway.
I personally have enjoyed not having these sort of discussions as a "temptation" here, but I would completely concede that is my own problem and not necessarily something others are required to provide for me!
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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MaryM
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Earlier in the thread the Archbishop of Denver, Charles Chaput, was mentioned and statements of his that were used on a political website were linked here. Because his words were not used in their entirety and his message was misrepresented, he issued a public response to that group. As others have been given the opportunity to post clarification of what they felt was inaccurate or incomplete information we feel it is important to make known his response on this issue.
The text is included below:
Quote:
Most Rev. Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap
Archbishop of Denver
Web Column
May 19, 2008
Forty years ago this month Bobby Kennedy was still alive and running for the Democratic Party's 1968 presidential nomination. I was a seminarian in Washington, D.C. I was also an active volunteer on Kennedy's campaign. I can still remember helping with secretarial work in the same room where Edward Kennedy and Pierre Salinger labored away on RFK strategy. It was my first involvement in elective politics, and after the Vietnam Tet Offensive in February and Martin Luther King Jr.'s murder on April 4, Kennedy's cause seemed urgent. Then on June 5, Kennedy was gunned down himself.
After RFK died, the meaning of the 1968 election seemed to evaporate. I lost interest in politics. I didn't get involved again until the rise of Jimmy Carter. Carter fascinated me because he seemed like an untypical politician. He was plain spoken, honest, a serious Christian and a Washington outsider. So I supported him during his 1976 campaign when I was a young priest working in Pennsylvania. After his election as president, I came to Denver as pastor of Holy Cross Parish in Thornton in 1977. I eventually got involved with the 1980 Colorado campaign for Carter's re-election on the invitation of a parishioner and Democratic Party activist -- Polly Baca, who was and remains a good friend.
Carter had one serious strike against him. The U.S. Supreme Court had legalized abortion on demand in its 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, and Carter the candidate waffled about restricting it. At the time, I knew Carter was wrong in his views about Roe v. Wade and soft toward permissive abortion. But even as a priest, I justified working for him because he wasn't aggressively "pro-choice." True, he held a bad position on a vital issue, but I believed he was right on so many more of the "Catholic" issues than his opponent seemed to be. The moral calculus looked easy. I thought we could remedy the abortion problem after Carter was safely returned to office.
Carter lost his bid for re-election, but even with an avowedly prolife Ronald Reagan as president, the belligerence, dishonesty and inflexibility of the "pro choice" lobby has stymied almost every effort to protect unborn human life since.
In the years after the Carter loss I began to notice that very few of the people, including Catholics, who claimed to be "personally opposed" to abortion really did anything about it. Nor did they intend to. For most, their personal opposition was little more than pious hand wringing and a convenient excuse -- exactly as it is today. In fact, I can't name any "pro-choice" Catholic politician who has been active, in a sustained public way, in trying to discourage abortion and to protect unborn human life - - not one. Some talk about it, and some may mean well, but there's very little action. In the United States in 2008, abortion is an acceptable form of homicide. And it will remain that way until Catholics force their political parties and elected officials to act differently.
Why do I mention this now? Earlier this spring a group called "Roman Catholics for Obama '08" quoted my own published words in the following way:
"So can a Catholic in good conscience vote for a pro-choice candidate? The answer is: I can't, and I won't. But I do know some serious Catholics -- people whom I admire -- who may. I think their reasoning is mistaken, but at least they sincerely struggle with the abortion issue, and it causes them real pain. And most important: They don't keep quiet about it; they don't give up; they keep lobbying their party and their representatives to change their pro-abortion views and protect the unborn. Catholics can vote for pro-choice candidates if they vote for them despite -- not because of -- their pro-choice views."
What's interesting about this quotation - which is accurate but incomplete - is the wording that was left out. The very next sentences in the article of mine they selected, which Roman Catholics for Obama neglected to quote, run as follows:
"But [Catholics who support 'pro-choice' candidates] also need a compelling proportionate reason to justify it. What is a 'proportionate' reason when it comes to the abortion issue? It's the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life - which we most certainly will. If we're confident that these victims will accept our motives as something more than an alibi, then we can proceed."
On their website, Roman Catholics for Obama stress that:
"After faithful thought and prayer, we have arrived at the conclusion that Senator Obama is the candidate whose views are most compatible with the Catholic outlook, and we will vote for him because of that -- and because of his other outstanding qualities -- despite our disagreements with him in specific areas."
I'm familiar with this reasoning. It sounds a lot like me 30 years ago. And 30 years later we still have about a million abortions a year. Maybe Roman Catholics for Obama will do a better job at influencing their candidate. It could happen. And I sincerely hope it does, since Planned Parenthood of the Chicago area, as recently as February 2008, noted that Senator Barack Obama "has a 100 percent pro-choice voting record both in the U.S. Senate and the Illinois Senate."
Changing the views of "pro-choice" candidates takes a lot more than verbal gymnastics, good alibis and pious talk about "personal opposition" to killing unborn children. I'm sure Roman Catholics for Obama know that, and I wish them good luck. They'll need it. |
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Mary M. in Denver
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JodieLyn
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Questions have arisen regarding the way this thread was moderated. If you have a question regarding the moderator's stance in a thread that should be directed privately to a moderator. We make a corresponding commitment to take the complaint seriously and let you know the results of our discussion. No favoritism was intended when we posted as moderators, we are simply human and subject to error as such. The format is also subject to error. If someone posts while another is crafting a post the order you read the posts may be "off".
If you have concerns about a particular post or thread, using the report button is a tool that allows you to let us know there are sensitivities and concerns and allow us to more fully direct our attention.
When links are added to threads, it's unlikely that the moderators can spend too much time researching every link. Moderators are homeschooling moms like yourselves who volunteer their time. Allow time for the moderators to handle the topic and concern that has been raised. (How We Moderate)
As members, you are solely responsible for the content of your posts (Terms of Membership). Moderators expect and appreciate your willingness to self-police your own words, heeding your own internal filter when unsure. WHEN IN DOUBT about whether a post/topic is within the scope of 4Real, please contact a moderator via PM before posting.
In the setting of any policy there is a period of working out the kinks.. finding definitions of what is allowed is not always easy, and words don't mean the same to all people. This thread was a testing ground in some ways. We, as moderators, are learning how to moderate this type of thread as well as figuring out which limits work and which are too unclear to be useful and how to allow that which is instructive and enlightening without harming the atmosphere and mission of the boards. How members act, react and question
influences the direction that the refinement of policy takes. A clarified and more specific statement of policy on this topic will be forthcoming.
We are grateful for your understanding, and ask for your prayers as we seek to provide an atmosphere of charity and openness that shelters the relationships we have here.
We have made repeated requests that self-policing occur on this thread and that conversation be stopped and energies be re-directed to prayer. This post is not an invitation to begin debate again. This thread is now locked per board policy.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Is it ok to get political here? (
Topic Closed)
