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Elena
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| Posted: Aug 20 2008 at 2:29pm | IP Logged
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This must be serendipity! Jill Stanek is going to be on Hannity and Combs tonight! You can hear from her own mouth what the issues were with Senator Obama and the legislation he voted against.
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Elena
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dollylima
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Elena wrote:
| This must be serendipity! Jill Stanek is going to be on Hannity and Combs tonight! |
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Ugh, I break out in a rash just thinking about watching Fox News! It seems like there is an awful lot of yelling on that channel. Is it me?
Of course, we have between four and six channels depending on the weather conditions where we live...and at least three of them are Canadian. :-)
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aussieannie
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hsmom wrote:
| Actually it is my understanding that if the candidate has the power to effect policies regarding life then yes we vote for the pro-life candidate, but that if a candidate does not have such power then no we don't have that obligation |
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My understanding is the President does have great influence, a very singular influence...already the supreme court is a different scene compared to a decade ago.
The other thing is the pro-abortion supporters obviously believe the government has a major part in whether abortion - roe vs wade, stands or falls.
I remember 8 years ago Barbara Streisand (pro-abortion) making a public, passionate plea to choose carefully the next president as she said there were three reasons for it: "The Supreme Court,the Supreme Court,the Supreme Court." Abortion was obviously one the of the top voting issues for her.
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mathmama
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hsmom wrote:
| Actually it is my understanding that if the candidate has the power to effect policies regarding life then yes we vote for the pro-life candidate, but that if a candidate does not have such power then no we don't have that obligation |
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I just wanted to mention something that I heard at Catholic homeschool conference (I believe the lady who runs Seton said it). She said that although people running for local office don't have any direct effect on abortion policy, they are the people that will eventually run for offices that can effect abortion policy. I had never thought of that, but she is so right. Her point was for more of us to get into the political arena, but for me it was a good reminder that I need to find out, to the best of my ability, what my local officials think about abortion.
Beth
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hsmom
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mathmama wrote:
hsmom wrote:
| Actually it is my understanding that if the candidate has the power to effect policies regarding life then yes we vote for the pro-life candidate, but that if a candidate does not have such power then no we don't have that obligation |
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although people running for local office don't have any direct effect on abortion policy, they are the people that will eventually run for offices that can effect abortion policy. I had never thought of that, but she is so right. Beth |
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That is a good point. I hadn't thought about their potentially running for a higher office later. Clearly a president already has that power to effect abortion policies.
Valerie
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MichelleW
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I just wanted to thank you all. Discussions like these remind me to think for myself, and I appreciate that. You all challenge me, and that is good.
Thanks.
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Barbara C.
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Just for the sake of public information and because some people might find them useful for making their decisions about Obama's supposed support of infanticide and how voting for any pro-choice candidate fits with the teachings of the Catholic Church, I thought I would offer the following links:
10,000 Catholics for Obama
Roman Catholics for Obama '08
1975 IL Abortion Law which already had a "Born Alive" clause
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Elena
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| Posted: Aug 20 2008 at 8:49pm | IP Logged
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10 reasons obama voted against the Illinois Born Alive Infant Protection Act
with direct quotes from the candidate himself.
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Elena
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Philothea
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Regarding the death penalty as compared with abortion:
Personally, I oppose capital punishment because I do not trust the State to make these sorts of life and death decisions without making mistakes (look what happened to Terri Schiavo, and she didn't even do anything wrong!), and I believe the State's power to kill individuals is inherently at risk for corruption and misuse by people with agendas (see Stalinist Russia or Communist China).
That said, there is nothing in Catholic teaching that requires me to hold this view. It is true, John Paul II was a vocal opponent of capital punishment, but he spoke as an individual, not as the Vicar of Christ, on that topic. The Catechism states that to the extent possible, we must show mercy, but when there is truly no other way to keep others safe, the death penalty is within the legitimate right of government. We can debate all day about whether it is ever necessary in the modern world, but it will just be a debate until the Church says something definitive.
I am also quite sure that the number of innocents killed by the death penalty in this country does not begin to approach the number of innocent souls killed each year by abortion. In fact, the number of guilty souls and innocent souls put together that have been killed by capital punishment in the entire history of the USA probably doesn't equal the number of babies killed in modern abortion clinics in a single year. The comparison is apples to oranges.
Abortion causes millions and millions of deaths, all innocent and totally defenseless babies. And it's treated like a God-given right in this country, which is absolutely disgusting. Heaven must weep over this.
May Mary, the Mother of God, who endured more than a little inconvenience, hardship and sorrow when she chose to give our Lord human life, pray for us -- and may God have mercy on us.
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JodieLyn
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Ladies, a debate is a debate whether you write your own opinion or use links for your voice.
To quote MaryM who spoke so eloquently
MaryM wrote:
So here again is the policy:
Quote:
| Be cautious when posting about political concerns. In general, it is acceptable to post political notices and bulletins to keep members informed. It is unacceptable to debate party politics which is beyond the purview and expertise of the moderators. Debates of this type should be done privately. |
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This policy does not prohibit discussion of political concerns. It states that it is acceptable to post information (so long as it would not be contrary to the faith or against church teaching which is a guideline for all postings). Though not explicitly stated (and probably should be added), any political posting should directly relate to our mission of homeschooling or to our Faith, which are the foundations of this board. What is beyond the board’s ability to moderate, and therefore not acceptable, is debate of party politics and when it gets personal.
Though specific candidates were mentioned and linked in this thread the first attempt was to steer discussion away from the specific candidates and toward a more general discussion of life as a foundational issue and our civic role as Catholics/Christians in the public square.
Angie’s post clearly stated the words of the two most recent popes that indicate the primacy of life as a fundamental right and foundational issue, before all other rights and issues. That clarifies our position as a Catholic board. That kind of discussion is very much a part of our mission as a Catholic board.
It would appear at this point that the discussion has overstepped the bounds of the policy and we ask that discussion in this direction be taken privately if parties are mutually inclined to continue discussion. Further discussion in the forum in this direction is against the stated policy.
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For those who feel a need, the policy does allow for you to continue a debate privately as long as it's mutually agreed upon.
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Angie Mc
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I just added an excerpt from Catholics in the Public Square to my original post on page 1 of this topic. It adds the following "non-negotiable" point per Pope Benedict XVI:
• The protection of the rights of parents to educate their children.”
Love,
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: Aug 20 2008 at 11:46pm | IP Logged
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I am not debating party politics. I am debating the veracity of the claims made in the video that was offered at the beginning of this thread. While I do not think Jill Stanek was lying about her experiences, I believe that her description and interpretation of Obama's actions regarding the "Born Alive" bill before the IL Senate was incomplete. One link I posted offered fuller information on the proceedings described by Jill Stanek in the video. In the video she refers to the 2003 attempt at passing the bill, but thanks to editing it is omitted that there were actually two previous attempts to pass the bill, one of which was voted down by a Republican-controlled state senate. (Obama voted "present" at the time, not "no".) Another link I offered exhibited how one group of Catholics is interpreting the Papal encyclicals and includes a quote from the Archbishop of Denver. I don't see how either link could be seen as a "debate of party politics" using someone else's voice.
The guidelines state that one may "post political notices and bulletins to keep members informed", but I am getting the impression that no one is allowed to question or debate the truth of these notices. According to the guidelines, I could post the rumor that "John McCain declared during a 60 Minutes interview that he was a 'war criminal' who 'bombed innocent women and children'." Just because I post such a notice that doesn't mean that it's true.
Everyone already knew that Obama was pro-choice. For the majority of people on this forum nothing else needs to be said to help them make their decision of who to vote for or who not to vote for. And most of the links that have been provided reaffirm this known fact. But the video that started this thread sets out to demonize Obama further by implying that he not only is pro-choice but he approves of leaving born babies literally on a shelf to die.
All I have been trying to say all along is that maybe there is more to this story than meets the eye. That perhaps since people disagree with his stance on abortion they are being very cavalier about accepting anything bad said about him as truth without considering his side of the story. But apparently anything he says to defend himself is circumspect and not even worth listening to because he is pro-choice. Being pro-choice automatically makes one a liar and in support of infanticide.
I love coming to 4Real Learning. I respect it's dedication to education, parenting, and Catholicism. And I do not want to undermine that in any discussion, no matter what the topic. But sitting back and allowing misrepresented information to be passed on as complete truth just seems like I would be condoning lies of omission, whether they were intentional or not. No one likes to have their intentions, actions, or words misunderstood or misrepresented. Who knows that better than Catholics?
And maybe I'm just dense, but I don't understand why when I offer more information or suggest further research about this particular public notice provided by Vanna, messages from moderators pop up warning that Forum policy is being violated.
I am sure it will please everyone that I will refrain from posting anymore in this thread. I think I have said all I needed to say about the video and Forum policy; I have no desire to start violating Forum policy by devolving into an irrelevant and unnecessary debate of party politics. And no matter who wins in November, I agree that this country needs as many prayers as it can get.
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lapazfarm
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Barbara, I for one found your posts and links to be enlightening and helpful. I appreciate your input here.
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folklaur
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lapazfarm wrote:
| Barbara, I for one found your posts and links to be enlightening and helpful. I appreciate your input here. |
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I agree, I found what you shared to be informative.
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Elena
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Barbara C. wrote:
For the majority of people on this forum nothing else needs to be said to help them make their decision of who to vote for or who not to vote for. And most of the links that have been provided reaffirm this known fact. But the video that started this thread sets out to demonize Obama further by implying that he not only is pro-choice but he approves of leaving born babies literally on a shelf to die.
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OK, for me, guilty as charged! I absolutely look at the stand on abortion as a litmus test for any candidate. It tells me about their world view, their morality, and a little bit about who they are as people. I absolutely wouldn't vote for any candidate ever who is pro-abortion under any circumstances - even if they were running for dog catcher.
As for the last sentence, Barbara, he absolutely did approve of letting babies who survive abortion to die. I posted a link to his direct quotes on the topic. The one in Jill Stanek's first experience literally was on a shelf left to die without even the basic palliative treatment that a criminal or thug would get if he came in off the street to the emergency room!
I come to this forum as a respite and sanctuary from the rest of the web. But I absolutely will debate and defend life issues if they come up. Sorry. 
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hsmom
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I don't know how to activate a link so if interested just cut and paste. It is an explanation from EWTN's question and answer site on the Bishops statement about elections. It directly addresses the differences in evil based on the Pope's statements. Blessings, Valerie
EWTN
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JennGM
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Link fairy here: I fixed your link for you, Valerie.
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Mary G
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I think, as a Moderator, I'm going to need to bring this thread back around to it's original subject -- "is it ok to get political here?"
The answer is no. As you can see, these devolve into a debate between factions and we don't get any further forward. As this Forum is for Catholic homeschooling in the context of real life, I don't think we need to bury our heads, but I also don't think we need to air EVERY potential subject.
I'm thinking this particular subject is done.
Don't forget to start the Election Novena on September 1st.
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Sarah in SC
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cactus mouse wrote:
lapazfarm wrote:
| Barbara, I for one found your posts and links to be enlightening and helpful. I appreciate your input here. |
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I agree, I found what you shared to be informative. |
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Ditto, and ditto.
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dollylima
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I would like to say that I am impressed at the level of maturity and respect that has been shown by the people posting their opinions here. There are not many places one could read such a civilized conversation about such a sensitive topic.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Is it ok to get political here? (
Topic Closed)
