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margot helene
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| Posted: May 12 2007 at 9:33pm | IP Logged
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cactus mouse wrote:
are you saying that we don't participate by "saying words" then? Does the congregation say anything? Do they sing anything? (and I guess I don't mean in my heart or mind or whatnot...I mean out loud  ....)
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In the dialogue Mass the faithful say the responses . . . out loud. In the High Mass we sing them. All my children have learned chant just by singing the responses at Mass. At a silent low Mass, only the altar server responds and we follow in the missal. It IS a quiet Mass! But the Mass prayers are rich and worth mining and reflecting upon. Recently Father did a census in our parish and more than 2/3 of our parish are children!! I mention this because the complaint of some people about the Traditional Mass is that they don't think the children will be engaged or understand it. But I think that the religious potential of the child is never more evident than in the response of (our)children to this Mass.
Margot
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At_His_Feet
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| Posted: May 12 2007 at 10:47pm | IP Logged
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I'm really enjoying reading this thread, even though it does make me feel slightly ignorant 
Am I right that the NO mass is what I would generally call the Latin Mass?
High Mass is sung, amd low isn't?
Tridentine is in Latin too?
Unfortunatly where I live I do not think that we have the opp. to experience anything but normal (not the best choice of words!  )mass.
Tricia
Aussie wife to James, Mum to Thomas9, Campbell 7 and Riley 2.
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ALmom
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| Posted: May 13 2007 at 1:30am | IP Logged
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Cactus Mouse, Hope you know that I didn't mean to imply that we don't participate at Novus Ordo (and I apologize if I came across that way) - but what I meant is that participation is not reduced to whether or not we speak out loud. I just wanted to emphasize that Tridentine Mass with fewer spoken/chanted responses does not mean it is wihtout real, active participation or is any less conducive of active participation - which is in the heart - whether it is done in the silence or spoken. Both Masses should be celebrated according to the instructions of the church and if done, then there aren't the surprises, and the tension of "what are they going to pull on us next." Both should allow for full and active participation and neither prevents this by its nature. I believe that certain aspects of the Tridentine help foster this turning of the mind and heart and sometimes the noise of the NO can distract - but this is personal opinion/experience and certainly colored by my own tangible experience in my own little neck of the woods.
The NO in our parishes are so crammed full of music that there isn't one moment of silence to allow for that silence that is also essential to full and active participation. Bells weren't used until very, very recently in our parishes because "we didn't need to be reminded that it was consecration, we heard the words" (but I will tell you my pre-verbal infants responded instantly to the bells at the monastery when they were used - and they certainly knew something special was about to happen. I know they would never have followed the words of the Eucharistic prayer). I know many of the aspects of beauty can be a part of the NO - it just isn't typical in our area.
Our personal experience has been that we are much more hindered by the shenanigans that seem to be typical of parishes - rather than Latin language or different rite or the fact that we are not praying a lot of the prayers out loud but simply in the silence of our hearts. There is a nonspoken visual language in the Tridentine Mass that I have found captivate our children and teaches at a level that even the youngest grasps internally long before they can speak (even a simple, low Mass). Everything turns the heart and mind to God - . I'm not saying this cannot be in a Novus Ordo - but just that, in our experience, too much is about the celebrant and how funny he might be or each other and sometimes my younger dc have a difficulty distinguishing Mass from the backyard bar-b-que or dd orchestra concert. They sense a certain effort to entertain (and zone out) and I have prayed and cried over the harm I think occurs subtley by the typical disregard of the sacred that is common in many, many parish liturgical celebrations. We are continually praying and discerning and trying to teach our children despite whatever difficulties. We almost never get to go to a Tridentine Mass  - the nearest approved one is over 3 hours drive now. The once or twice we were able to go (when there was one closer), it was a low Mass so there wasn't any music and none of the extras that go with a High Mass. There were no surprises, but yes, struggling with language and how to use the book were distracting at first. However, I'd be at a Tridentine Mass in a heartbeat if one were available. In the meantime, we find the best possible parish and do the best we possibly can and try to be supportive and positive - and try not to be whiners, complainers or hyper- critical. I'm not saying I could easily follow everything in a Tridentitne Mass the first time (or even now) but I appreciated that I knew exactly what to expect and everything was done according to the rubrics for this Mass. I wasn't on edge, conditioned to be resigned to the next "innovative" experiment with liturgy. I knew they wouldn't hang balloons from the altar, or have someone dancing down the aisle. Also, just because I'm saying the words in Novus Ordo doesn't mean I am engaged in what I'm saying. Distractions are possible in any Mass (NO or T) Sometimes distractions are of our own making - but sometimes they are encouraged by outside sources and unavoidable by us - then we do the best we can, immediately turn our hearts and minds back to God and offer the suffering caused by these distractions to God.
However, it is frustrating to know that distractions from outside are continually thrown at you in your own parish situation. The one place we seem to be able to be undistracted is at a convent (happens to be Novus Ordo - but celebrated strictly according to the mind of the church with care to the beauty of all aspects: statues, altar linens, Mass vestments, devotion of the servers, sisters singing reverent and beautiful hymns where God is adored and we're not singing the praise yourself blather. Many of the prayers are in Latin.
Those of you who have access to both a beautiful Tridentine Mass and a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated fully in accord with the mind of the church are very blessed indeed. Most of us do not have this priviledge.
We have been subjected to continual surprises in the NO parish Masses - and we try to do our best and be understanding that a great deal of the mess was inherited by our current priests and they are tackling things one piece at a time and we must offer up our sufferings - but ...
I have had children in tears because they could not concentrate to pray. We have been subjected to adults and teens talking throughout the Mass, even so far as once, the priest and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist were joking at the Lamb of God (thankfully this was not in our diocese - but it was a huge scandal to my dc. We had to listen very, very carefully for the words of consecration here - and that in itself, puts you in a more critical and less prayerful frame - yet this was a case where it was essential to know).
We are continually asked to clap for someone and sometimes folks break out in spontaneous applause - a good thing after a performance, not so appropriate in the middle of liturgy.
We never know what the psalm will be whether it is approved or some song that someone tried to substitute. We have noticed a pattern - sin and contrition and the justice of God are generally dropped in favor of more "upbeat" themes. The Lamb of God has endless strophes added to it - and we never know which one will be sprung on us on any given Sunday (We rejoiced during Lent as we actually got the Latin traditional chant Lamb of God. Sadly, now that we are in the Easter season, we are back to endless unknown strophes.)
one parish will have everyone hold hands, another will turn to the back while father processes in, some have chaos at the Sign of Peace with a competition to see who can shake the most hands, some involve the priest leaving the altar area to shake everyone's hands up and down the aisle.
We have no less than 11 extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist every Sunday - and the movement from all over the church to the altar. Improvements have been made - it still is distracting.
Holy Thursday involved the re-commissioning of extraordinary ministers. Another parish had everyone washing everyone elses feet and the priest didn't even wash any feet.
Sometimes mass is interrupted to ask everyone to come up to place pledges at the foot of the altar.
Then there are the children's church stuff where you have all these children (anywhere from 3yo - 5th grade depending on the parish) leaving before the readings (usually there are stray children running) and then it is generally chaos when folks return - somewhere in the middle of a prayer but at least prior to the Eucharistic prayer.
We have learned to look at all songs planned prior to the start of Mass so we are not shocked in the middle of Mass with some theologically odd hymn. Avoiding shock means that I am less likely to allow the distraction to take over - but can spend that time in quiet prayer instead of stewing (I am weak and find it extremely difficult to deal with unexpected experimentation especially since my dc are there).
We have learned to never go to any Masses where the children/youth choirs are singing as these are the most likely times for plays between the homily and gospel (at least the priest gives the homily - one parish regularly has others do this - one time we were shocked to get a Lutheran pastor as homilist) or boom boxes blaring some version of the Our Father while teenagers sway to the music around the altar.
During communion at one of the Christmas Masses (and starting during the prayers immediately before this), the usher went up and down instructing everyone about the logistics of how we were to line up for Communion. It was a more crowded Mass. However, these instructions could certainly have waited and been much more quietly and subtley offered - or everything could have been announced before Mass started. It was definitely very, very distracting.
Confirmation Mass involved herding children from one point to another with most of the focus on the photo ops and not on the Sacrament (this sprung on us at the last minute when our dd was very concerned about the photographer in her face and having to leave the pew before the bishop processed out - poor bishop never made it out as the mob in the aisles prevented any movement at all) All the sponsors were forced out of their pews, too, because they would have been in the way of the photos. The following year they didn't even attempt a procession out - and the photographer set up a very tall ladder in the aisle while Mass was still going on. We will no longer take our children to Confirmations unless one of our children is being Confirmed as much as we would like to celebrate the sacrament with other families we know - it is simply too scandelous for our children and I'm stumped by how to answer the questions. When our dd was confirmed we had just enough heads up to request that the photographer not take her pic (he was still on the altar area but at least not distracting her by photos) and we arrived 30 min before the official gathering time so she could actually make a preparation before Mass and then we planned for her to make the best thanksgiving she could but since they were forced out of their pews for photos she simply tried to remain recollected during the photos, "processed out" which really was fight your way out through the crowds until she could double back into the church to have some undisturbed time for thanksgiving (while everyone else processed straight to the reception).
Our toddler has taken to scrambling over everyone in the pew to shake Fathers hand as he processes out. Now we love Father, and we love that he loves the children - but it is simply distracting and undoes a lot of training by that simple deviation. We don't complain, we don't make a big deal to our toddler, I don't think Father is horrible because he does this - but I do wish this distraction wasn't there (and it then becomes a distraction even when we are somewhere where father doesn't do this because the toddler thinks everyone does it and then is confused - and now he is looking around trying to figure things out)
Our toddler generally tries to sleep during Mass whenever we are in our parish - except when he shakes Fathers hand, sign of peace and it is obvious to me that he is seeing himself as center stage when Father blesses him at communion. One would think this would mean he'd be even less engaged in a Mass that is in Latin, etc. Our experience has been the opposite. Everything around him points to God and the child is alert, attentive, actually attempts to pray a few responses (something he won't do in our parish even though he always prays even the Our Father with us at night prayers). He actually is more bodily reverent as an expression of some sort of inner reverence. It is not the Latin or not Latin as much as it is the whole sense of the Sacred.
I'll take learning to follow a book to help me through the Latin until I learn it over continual surprises. I would not have liked to go to a Mass thinking it was NO and then found out it wasn't. Surprises simply tend to be distracting. Personally, I don't care which Mass - just as long as it is reverent, without experimentation and all according to the rubrics and I know which I am attending.
I really don't mean to hijack this thread and won't say anymore - and let those with much more experience with the Tridentine speak on how to learn and prepare. There is a wonderful video that the Priestly Fraternity puts out that we found helpful in becoming more familiar with the Tridentine Mass. I know that one thing that put me in awe was reading the actual prayers using a book written by Janyce Smith from Our Lady of the Rosary School. I think it is out of print but it was beautiful in the way she explained the Tridentine Mass (her purpose as stated was that whether you went to the NO or the Tridentine, understanding the Tridentine helps you pray more deeply at the NO). I was captivated by it all and believe she was right. I would study the Tridentine as it makes more explicit what is implicit in the NO regardless of whether I went to another Tridentine or not.
Looking at young children and how they learn - the NO has so much emphasis on the congregation saying the words and singing - but young children aren't nearly as attentive to that verbage as to the bells, incense, beautiful statues, linens, the quiet reverence of those present and especially of Father. There is not so much busyness on the altar to distract from what Father is doing. A child knows without being told that this is sacred. This is other worldly - different from anything else he has experienced. Perhaps I'm especially sensitive right now to these things - as the lack is something that tears my heart as I see its repercussions on my own children. We don't have the opportunity to move down the street to another parish - or to attend a Tridentine Mass. I find that both a reverently celebrated NO and the Tridentine are rich in help. I know my baptist grandmother began attending Mass with my grandfather after the introduction of the vernacular - and I know I have trouble with Latin - but I often feel robbed of my heritage because even with the NO and the council, chant, Latin, and so much of this was supposed to be preserved. I'm not very quick at all these things - but I find it extremely helpful to try.
Of course, the Mass is the Mass regardless of which one. We need familiarity and consistency to be able to really participate - the NO tends to be in a continual state of flux and changes priest to priest, region to region, country to country. I know the first many times at a Tridentine are difficult because it is unfamiliar - we don't have familiarity and though it will be consistent wherever you go, it takes a while since it is not consistent with NO experience. I expect that it will be difficult for me for some time if we ever do have access to a Tridentine here. Hopefully, soon there will be a consistency in either Mass and we can be done with the continual necessity to evaluate the latest attempt at engaging us. (Anyways there was an excellent article in Adoremus along these lines - how changes, even minor ones are difficult in the middle of an atmosphere of flux and surprise. I found myself shouting yes at every line.)
Janet
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Celeste
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| Posted: May 13 2007 at 4:19pm | IP Logged
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I've been out of town, coming to this late, but wanted to throw in a "hear hear" to Jenn's comment about the blessing of children.
I don't find that it distracts from the liturgy, in that it is a time of Communion with Jesus. Those who can, commune with Christ physically; those who cannot, come as close as they can to His presence and commune spiritually. Jesus did say to let the little children come to Him, and do not hinder them. . . . We bring our children forward even if they won't be receiving a blessing.
Now, our diocese (Lincoln) is a bastion of orthodoxy, so I trust that it's not forbidden; but if it is, I will OF COURSE follow my Mother the Church.
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Celeste
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Also a comment about participation: Sure, we don't NEED to respond vocally to be participating; but we are physical as well as spiritual. That's why the sacraments are loaded with physical signs--water, oil, gestures, words, food. Just as in brain development more and stronger synapses are created the more senses are used in the learning process, so, I would think, the more our bodies as well as our minds and hearts are (appropriately) involved, the better we participate. Hence in the liturgy: music, the sung and the spoken word, bells, color, incense, the appearances (including taste) of bread and wine, gestures, movement (genuflecting, standing, kneeling).
The Book of Revelation describes the heavenly liturgy, in which we participate on earth through the Mass. What happens there? Everyone is crying out in praise, singing, chanting, falling on their faces. . . .
I think, as someone pointed out, there was recognition many years before the Council that the liturgy needed to be reformed so that the faithful could participate more fully.
Just my .02, if it's worth that much!
Celeste
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JennGM
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| Posted: May 13 2007 at 7:44pm | IP Logged
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I'm having sporadic connection, and have lost my post already once.  I'll try again.
Janet, it seems your diocese is much worse than ours, so I understand your comments. Just to clarify, there are fine linens, incense and bells at Novus Ordo masses, too. But that isn't what makes the Mass, either Tridentine or Novus Ordo. Those are some of the externals. With the resurgence of the indult masses there are many more well-done high masses, with wonderful sacred music, before Vatican there was equally high number of irreverent, rapid, low masses, or sadly done high masses. It wasn't all perfect -- or there wouldn't have been move for a reform.
I'm torn so many different ways when it comes to Mass. When there is blatant disobedience and liturgical abuses, I definitely will go elsewhere. But when a parish is just not ideal, not wrong, but not to my liking...such as the music, we usually stay. I remind myself that it is still Jesus present on the altar: Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, and requires my worship and adoration. Sometimes my spirit may not be filled with a good sermon, or smells and bells, but my participation, adoration, reverence, thanksgiving, and yes, sometimes sacrifice is what fills my soul with grace. I can't always be pleased; life isn't like that. There are personalities and things that can irk me. I have to keep my calm, not be distracted by the externals and focus on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
And I bring that up, because if all the good souls flee from the churches who are the sacrificial victim souls to make reparation for the liturgical abuses? Who are the ones to stand up or show the reverence in the Mass?
And then my parental side comes out and says I want to show my child the best and the reverent, the liturgy that is obedient, closest to what the Church teaches. And usually as a family we choose this option, so my son can learn the Truth. I do get sad to hear when some have no options.
I also wanted to make a point about participation. One of the points of the reform was the fact that people weren't participating at the Mass. And I'm not meaning just talking. People weren't necessarily following along in their Missal, but reading their own prayers or praying rosaries. There is nothing wrong with a rosary, but the highest form of prayer is the Mass, and it is the Universal Prayer of the Church. Why say a rosary when a higher form of prayer is going on in front of you? The Mystical Body is coming together, worshiping together...so this unity needed to be pointed out.
The reformers moved to instruct the faithful, so that one could understand what the Liturgy was all about, so as to better participate. Read Virgil Michel, Romano Guardini, Pius Parsch, and my favorite Martin Hellriegel for examples. The vernacular and/or dialogue aided this a bit, so as to keep one's attention.
What others have mentioned in this thread about discussing, teaching, reading about the Mass helps the participation. And that's a wonderful movement I see -- so many returning to the Tridentine Mass are more fully informed. But the same can be said about the Novus Ordo -- the more we put into our worship, the more we get out of it. Same with anything else.
Just a bit of long rambling, sorry.
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Lisbet
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| Posted: May 13 2007 at 7:54pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
And I bring that up, because if all the good souls flee from the churches who are the sacrificial victim souls to make reparation for the liturgical abuses? Who are the ones to stand up or show the reverence in the Mass?
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Jenn, you are so much more eloquent than I am at expressing your thoughts, and you are definetly more well read! 
I was expressing this very concern (from your quote) to my husband during one of our discussions a while back. He is very firm on staying at our very orthodox parish, where we have the indult TLM regularly, communion rail, confession before EACH mass, etc... Many of very good holy families come from all over this area. (We have been there for nearly 10 years now).
His reply to this was pretty much that we make a 'statement' with which pew we plant our bottoms in. (He said it in a way that a man would say it! ) Our parish has the highest regular mass attendence in our diocese, we are also a very, um, wealthy parish. He says that we send a message to the diocese when many people regularly attend and support a particular parish.
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helene
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Wow, Janet, you did a fabulous job describing perfectly each and every liturgical abuse I had been subjected to growing up in New Hampshire. My poor parents floated from year to year from one parish to the next trying to find some semblance of orthodoxy for all us kids. Sadly there really wasn't much to speak of and we had floated so much that when it came time for me get married I really didn't know WHERE to do it. I ended up having to pay $200 to get married in the chapel off the Cathedral.......I didn't really know what a reverent Mass was until I went to College. They had the Novus Ordo in Latin there and it was done gorgeously (but not too smelly and belly). I think the Latin ensures it is done the same every time and done properly and reverently...no opportunities for liturgical exploration. I wish the Novus Ordo was offered in Latin more frequently. We are blessed now here in Connecticut to be surrounded by several orthodox Novus Ordo parishes. It's been hard to pick between them! I am truly grateful for what we have here. My boys serve daily in a cassock and surplice (no girl altar boys yet) and my girls know what a Mass should look and sound like. They know how to place their hearts on the Altar with the Sacrifice of the priest. This is an invaluable channel of grace for them and I know it is a priveledge in this day and age. I just wish everyone could have it all the time. I'm sure that is how Christ meant it to be. But boy oh boy, Janet, do I ever know and feel your pain. But you are right. The Sacrament is the main thing and we should be infinitely grateful to have that, no matter what surrounds it. You have a beautiful attitude. May God re-pay you one thousand fold for it.
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doris
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| Posted: May 14 2007 at 12:31pm | IP Logged
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At_His_Feet wrote:
Am I right that the NO mass is what I would generally call the Latin Mass?
High Mass is sung, amd low isn't?
Tridentine is in Latin too?
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OK, someone else correct me if I'm wrong
NO = Novus Ordo, introduced after Vatican II. Can be in English or Latin but is basically the same, the 'dialogue' Mass.
High Mass is sung, with bells and smells!
Low Mass is said.
Tridentine is in Latin, and is a completely different form from the NO Mass -- it isn't just a translation. There's no verbal participation by the congregation and lots of other differences.
I'm finding the thread really interesting -- and also rather sad (Janet, your experiences rang a bell with me -- we just copped out and went to our neighbouring parish -- so fed up were we with the ad libbing during the Eucharistic prayer, omission of the Creed, bla bla bla).
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margot helene
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doris wrote:
OK, someone else correct me if I'm wrong
NO = Novus Ordo, introduced after Vatican II. Can be in English or Latin but is basically the same, the 'dialogue' Mass.
High Mass is sung, with bells and smells!
Low Mass is said.
Tridentine is in Latin, and is a completely different form from the NO Mass -- it isn't just a translation. There's no verbal participation by the congregation and lots of other differences.
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Not quite right.
Here is the breakdown:
1. Novus Ordo (NO) Mass - "new" order of the Mass. We wouldn't call it a dialogue Mass, I don't think. It can be in Latin . . . or any language.
2. Tridentine is always in Latin (even the music IN the Mass has to be in Latin. The Processional and the Recessional can be in English)has four forms: 1.)silent low 2.) dialogue low 3.) High Mass (sung) 4.) Solemn High Mass (sung, 1 priest and 2 deacons; usually on big feast days)
I would not say that the Novus Ordo Mass is completely different from the traditional Mass. The underlying richness of the prayer has been taken out in the NO, but the parts of the Mass are the same. (i.e. Mass of the Catechumen, Mass of the Faithful. Penitential, Liturgy of the Word, Offertory, Consecration, Communion)At the end of every traditional Mass the opening of St. John's Gospel is read, and at a low Mass there are additional supplications to Mary and St. Michael.
Hope that helps!
margot
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doris
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| Posted: May 14 2007 at 5:17pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for refining my hasty generalisations, Margot!
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JennGM
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| Posted: May 15 2007 at 9:43am | IP Logged
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Margot, I do think vernacular music was allowed, at least for some of the Masses in Tridentine. I've seen several references to songs in English being sung.
I have a few links and quotes I came across that might enhance this discussion a bit.
Father Z in "What Does the Prayer Really Say?" had this Motu Proprio report. It's just an opinion piece, but it clarifies the question above about what is Pope Benedict's aim in the Latin Mass. This was the original indult (ETA: Documents Related to Celebration of the Missal of 1962). Note that Fr. Z mentions that there is a present problem of many places not using the 1962 missal...a problem that needs to be ironed out.
CatholicLiturgy.com has the text of both 1962 and 1970 missals. A great resource!
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JennGM
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| Posted: May 15 2007 at 10:26am | IP Logged
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I picked up a book I really enjoyed called Martin B. Hellriegel: Pastoral Liturgist by Noel Hackmann Barrett. It is OOP and very hard to find, but an excellent, excellent book. It is a biography of Msgr. Hellriegel, but it is loaded with his teaching on liturgy, the liturgical reform, practices and aims he did in parishes, convents, conferences. So much of his faith and practices started as a child and came from his mother in Germany. He was one of the founding editors of Orate Fratres which is now Worship which was a tremendous publication on liturgy.
I get so excited about his writings is I see the universality of his message, the Liturgical Movement. It's not just for Vatican II, or Tridentine, but for all of us. We need to deepen our understanding of what is happening in the liturgy.
Women for Faith and Family and Adoremus quote from his extensively. Florence Berger (Cooking for Christ) has a quote from him, too. His main teachings were to emphasize the teachings of the Mystical Body of Christ/Vine and Branches, and that all liturgy's focus is on the Eucharist. Even the paraliturgy (sacramentals, domestic church, etc.) must reflect the liturgy.
These liturgical reform writers had such vision and clarity, and so many of them were on the same page that you can see that the Holy Spirit was moving through the Church.
pp. 56-57. The misconceptions consist in the notions that liturgy is to be identified with visible ceremonies or with certain kinds of vestments or music. The problem with these ideas is that they confuse the gem with its setting. The proper setting is significant but it is only the beginning: the significance of the liturgy is much greater: The liturgy is the reenactment of the life of Christ; it is the re-presentation (making present) of the work of redemption...The liturgy is that divine worship with the mystic Christ, that is, the Church as a body joined with Christ as its head renders to the Heavenly Father; it consists in the a) celebration and b) application of the mysteries of redemption, executed in mystery-drama by the particular priesthood made up of those specially endowed by Holy Orders, and by the universal priesthood, made up of those baptized and confirmed.
And this analogy:
pp. 134-135 In both cases Monsignor Hellreigel gave an introduction to the meaning of the liturgy, explaining it as the principal means through which the divine life of Christ is made present in His acts of Redemption....Monsignor Hellriegel made sure his listeners knew that liturgy and rubrics were not synonymous: he compared rubrics to the fence and liturgy to the garden. Typically using a concrete image to get his point across, he helped the priests to see that although the rubrics are important, they are means rather than an end. The real emphasis should be on sharing in the life and action of Christ. Those who are more concerned when something goes wrong with the fence than with a weedy garden are missing the boat. He made his point by noting, "There lived a group of fence watchers 1,900 years ago who cause a great deal of trouble to Him 'who came to give them life that they may have it in abundance...' The liturgical movement does not stand for innovations, it stands for a 100% 'sentire cum Ecclesia'...
And one more...
p. 79 In March of 1936 he addressed the Missouri Catholic Educational Conference. Hellriegel explained to the assembled teachers that liturgy was not to be identified with the externals of chant or flowing vestments. Rather the liturgy was the first and foremost the celebration of the Eucharist and the other sacraments by which man renders fitting worship to God and receives the fruits of Christ's redemptive work. The externals are significant only insofar as they can help to express and to enhance the understanding and prayer of the liturgy. Hellriegel went on to explain that the liturgical movement was an international effort to bring priests and people back to a vital and wholehearted participation in the life of Christ through a celebration of the mysteries of faith in the liturgy. Two dimensions were involved, the deepening of prayer and the taking of this deepened spiritual life back to the life and work of the Christian. The teachers were urged, as Catholic educators, to be extensions of Christ the Teacher. It was pointed out to them that the major means of nourishing this oneness with Christ is by themselves living a life filled with liturgical prayer. This was necessary if the teacher was to be able to communicate the full Christ life to his students. The final section of the talk consisted of a number of practical suggestions which the teachers could follow in working with their students. The first requirement was the imparting of a basic understanding by instruction on the doctrine of the Mystical Body, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Liturgical Year. The next level would be that of experience. When possible, the teacher should try to arrange for the students to participate in the dialogue Mass, the sung high Mass, Vespers of Compline. Teachers should also provide suggestions for their students regarding paraliturgical practices that could be carried out in the home. The communal spirit begun in prayer should be fostered in the daily life and activities of the students.
Any of this sound familiar? So much of this is what we parents are striving to do, talking about on this board and our blogs. Hellriegel did so much in trying to explain about the mass readings, Gregorian chant, Church Stations, Mystical Body,...just on and on.
The book talks about how Hellriegel had to work with other writers to come up with books for seminarians. The problem in seminaries was the emphasis on "HOW" to say the Mass: how to fold the hands, where to put the book, etc. There was a lack of emphasis on the Mystical Body of Christ, on the Eucharist as the center, meditation of the Divine Office and Mass of the day, and the Liturgical year. Earlier theology books don't have this emphasis!
For more of his writings or teachings, see:
"Active Participation" in Chant
Buried Treasure Part I
Family Celebration of Pentecost
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Celeste
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JennGM wrote:
pp. 56-57. The misconceptions consist in the notions that liturgy is to be identified with visible ceremonies or with certain kinds of vestments or music. The problem with these ideas is that they confuse the gem with its setting. The proper setting is significant but it is only the beginning: the significance of the liturgy is much greater: |
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Fabulous quotes, Jenn! I'm exploring the links as I can.
Celeste
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Celeste
Mother of five. Daughters.
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Celeste
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Here's a great quote from Pius XII's Mediator Dei (192): "Indeed it is very necessary that the faithful attend the sacred ceremonies. Not as if they were outsiders or mute onlookers, but let them fully appreciate the beauty of the liturgy and take part in the sacred ceremonies, alternating their voices with the priest and choir, according to the prescribed norms."
Thomas Howard writes beautifully about antiphonality ("alternating their voices") in the liturgy in If Your Mind Wanders at Mass, which I would quote but I can't seem to find my copy. Something about the angels and the Psalms, deep calling upon deep. (Can anyone help?)
Celeste
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Sarah
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doris wrote:
| Tridentine is in Latin, and is a completely different form from the NO Mass -- it isn't just a translation. There's no verbal participation by the congregation and lots of other differences. |
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That being said it is important to understand that the Tridentine Mass and the N.O. Mass are the same rite. The Novus Ordo is just the New Order of the "Old Rite." We really cannot think of them as different rites because rites cannot be invented but rather they evolve(as I understand it). This is where some of the tensions that I try to avoid come into play. I'm telling you this because when I first began attending the "Old Mass" I could not understand what the problem was. Why were some "traditionalists" and some New Order Catholics so upset? I asked around and no one would explain it to me. What was the big deal? I see now that the tensions come because we are the same rite under the same Bishops, etc. Yet, it is very different. While I back out of the whole conflict at every chance, I see more now why it is often hard for the two to intermingle. The calendars/feastdays are different, the ministers at Masses are different (there is not Subdeacon in the NO/ there are no Extraordinary Ministers in the "Old), and even the Liturgical Seasons are different. Vestment colors are different at funerals. So you see that maybe sometimes the "Old Mass" people wonder where their place is in the Catholic Church and maybe sometimes the NO people feel that there is no place for them because those things have been changed. These feelings run deep and are usually among people a generation ahead of me who witnessed the changes.
My personal take on the whole thing is that there is a place for us ("Old Mass" people) and those of us that want a peaceful existance together get along just fine accepting both as is done in our lovely diocese. It seems that the current Holy Father, as the one before him, are very inclusive of the Old Rite and going about healing feelings and reconciling those who have gone astray because of the changes. It is really beautiful to watch peace unfold and anger melt away.
A quick comment about blessings:
We have 2 priest at our Tridentine "parish" and one blesses the children at Communion with actually tracing a cross on their heads. The other doesn't bless at all. Most of the FSSP priests I have seen do bless the kids. I guess it depends on the individual priest. I prefer the blessing.
Hope this came across okay.
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Anne McD
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This is all so interesting to read!!
While I do bring my children up to communion for a blessing, I would certainly understand and obey if Holy Mother Church nixed this. What really gets my goat is when Eucharistic Ministers place the same hand they've been using to distribute the Eucharist with on a child's head. I did chuckle when I saw one of our EM's just smile at the kids standing there waiting for their blessing and say "God bless you!"
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ALmom
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Perhaps, Anne, what you describe is why we've had so much trouble with the blessing. We tend to get a hair tossle or playful gesture rather than a prayerful, benediction like blessing (which is why those old enough to sit by themselves, but too young for 1st Communion, kneel in the pew rather than come up with us). And if we happen to not be able to get in Father's line, then the extraordinary ministers try to bless in the same way as the priests - confusing the priestly blessing and other blessings. It is just one more distraction we could do without. I have been pondering other comments here and hoping that I did not make others uneasy in expressing our dislike for the blessing at Communion of children - if it is in the Lincoln diocese, I'm certain it is done much differently than here!
One thing I have noticed, is that in dioceses that are generous in allowing the Tridentine, there are also very well done Novus Ordo Masses. I've wondered if the fact that people have a place to turn - and do and will- encourages more care in the Novus Ordo. What I have always read is that the absolute suppression of the Tridentine is unprecedented in church history. When norms were established, other rites of long standing co-existed with the new. Here, we are told that allowing the Tridentine would be divisive - but I haven't seen that in other areas where Tridentine is allowed and I see people freely move between each. We are really, really praying that our new bishop, whoever he may be and whenever we finally get him, will be generous and allow for this. I personally think a lot of healing will come from it - and also better liturgies in the Novus Ordo as well. But that is just my 2 cents and maybe there are things about our area that I don't understand.
Janet
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doris
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I always take my dc to a priest rather than a eucharistic minister because the latter do 'bless' the children and it's just a pleasant gesture rather than having any real meaning. Anyway in our parish the priests bless the children with the Blessed Sacrament -- ie make the sign of the cross over them while holding the Blessed Sacrament. They also say something along the lines of 'Look at Jesus giving you a blessing'. I find it very beautiful, although unusual -- and I hope that I don't now find out that it's not what they should be doing...
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mamalove
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quoting from "from the housetops" a publication put out by the the slaves of the immaculate heart of mary
"The sense of what we are about at Mass has been lost. Today for liturgy to be "meaningful" it must entertain the people and provide an emotional charge. It must be emphasized that Liturgy is primarily at the service of Doctrine. The doctrinal essesce of the Mass as a sacrafice must be safegaurded by a liturgy that is precise in its expression and changeless in form since dogma is neither subject to change nor popular opinion.
As our Redemption came from the Cross embedded in the rock of Calvary, so too, for centuries the effects of this redemption have streamed from the solid bedrock of the Tridentine Mass. Countless saints, apostles, virgins and martyrs have drunk from this supernal source! its rediscovery will produce many more."
i wholeheartedly agree. i withstood one to many "Jesus Christ superstarish" masses and other terrible forms of abuse to get me over my hump regarding the Latin Mass. Now we go as often as possible, and it is converting my husband and bringing my children up in reverence and awe of the Holy Mass.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Tridentine Mass...
