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Cindy
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WJFR wrote:
[QUOTE=ladybugs]
. For me, Homeschooling with Gentleness reminded me of that. Whether homeschoolers are school-at-home, unschooling or somewhere in between, I don't think that "style" or what we DO is the essence, the heart, of homeschooling. At least, when I personally focus too much on the extraneous stuff, I start worrying and second-guessing and feeling like I'm getting behind in a race.
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Willa,
The above thought you expressed resonated with me. I have been brought back to this very often in the past months.
I have pulled back recently from most outside influences, including most of my lists and boards, to really watch my family, journal, read and think. This discussion has been terrific and I printed out several posts for my journal. But, I think there is a time to reflect and be and try to listen to what God is whispering to us. It is hard sometimes for me to hear that when I get too much information competing in my mind.
When I can clear out the excess, I find the essence of raising my children is not the label and method but the relationship.
I appreciate your journey about too 'much' unschooling. I have been there, too. With any strategy or method we can try it, see if it fits our child and adjust. I don't know if this is what happened with you, but I found if I put this method 'on' my children and didn't stop to watch and listen it failed. Just as Seton, Clasical, Cm or any method, too, would fail.
All children are different at different times in their lives. I can see some enjoying unschooling, self-led, conquering the world with mom as mentor, facillitor and cheerleader. But other kids might not have the direction and need more guidance. I find we still use the fundamental positives of unschooling even if it is with things I as teacher bring in. It does not have to be all or nothing-- no matter who tells me what. We don't need to follow someone else's definition. What a waste of time!
I recently heard it said that unschooling is not leaving your child alone ... that is child neglect! It is knowing your child and giving them what they need. Be it a workbook or a blank sheet of paper. I love that. But we have to give them *us*. Which is sometimes the most difficult thing....especially in terms of time and energy.
And, over all, yes we are the primary educators- I know I need to bring things to my children they would not neccesarily find on their own, whether they are in a strong self-led mode or not. I do feel that is my responsibiily and privelege as a parent. And I love doing it- especially when I think back on all the things we have shared and how the boys have incorporated them into their lives over the years. I would never give up the faith reading, art study, music... nature study. All that great cm stuff!
You are right that we can get tripped up in methods. I think the key as others have said, is the relationship. When I am feeling overwhelmed or that I am not doing it 'right' or feel I don't have the talent of other moms who are unschooling 'better' or Cm'ing 'better' it is easy for my relationship with my children to suffer. I get tense, they know it and I usually do something dumb.
Maybe the reason we are having trouble defning the perfect method is because there is no perfect one. Every family will have a slightly different version.. and that version will change over time. And, even if they are right on with that version, it is undefinable in itself because it is about relationship. The more honest that is and the more we can really see who our children are and what they need, the better we can give it to them. And we are not perfect so will always be adjusting and seeking, watching and changing.
I think, too, we need to give ourselves a break.. I know I do! I am a bit of a perfectionist (well in SOME things, my dh reminds me)-- and we don't have to get this perfect. Just love our kids, focus on what is right for them (and not what everyone else thinks about us) and be open to listen and model Christ. Ok, I am giving myself this advice and on my next bad day I will come look up this post and re-read it! 
Little way.. that sounds like the perfect path, Willa....
My oldest is 15... and I want to savor these next years. They will go fast.
P.S. I know my sig line is out of date, but I like it saying that he is still 14.... lol
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Genevieve
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Cindy wrote:
| You are right that we can get tripped up in methods. I think the key as others have said, is the relationship. |
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I can completely relate to this. I wonder sometimes whether it is because of my strong math background. 1 + 1 = 2. I find that I'm constantly looking for the correct answer using the correct approach. Then I start to trap myself into a box. Or worst still, I trap other homeschoolers in a box and close off from them during discussion because I think our educational philosophies will not mesh. *sigh* The most effective method I have found to counter this mentality is not to label myself or my child, but to sit and observe. Knowing different philosophies have helped because I know different approaches and tactics. If there were indeed perfect, then perhaps the founder of such philosophies would be God. *laughs* The search of the perfect philosophy is indeed humbling.
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tovlo4801
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Genevieve wrote:
Cindy wrote:
| You are right that we can get tripped up in methods. I think the key as others have said, is the relationship. |
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I can completely relate to this. I wonder sometimes whether it is because of my strong math background. 1 + 1 = 2. I find that I'm constantly looking for the correct answer using the correct approach. |
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I've been thinking about my search for the "right" method and my mathmatical tendencies. I switched majors in college from English to Accounting. It was a big *sigh* moment for me to move from subjective confusion to objective order where there is a "right" answer and it can be found with just a little digging. In English I tried and tried, but never could quite achieve the "right" answer. I was attracted to the clues literature gives to the puzzle of this life, but I was constantly frustrated by my inability to master the puzzle.
I've begun to see literature (which for me was really just a vehicle for observing and discovering the world) has as much loveable order as math, but it's just very, very complex - a reflection of life itself. I'm realizing that it's just not as simple as reconciling a statement that's not in balance. 
God is so wise and complex and I'm sure to Him it's all as simple as finding where that penny off is to me, but for me to try to solve the problems that were meant for God to solve is just silliness (or arrogance?  ).
So where does that leave me in the search for a perfect method? I guess it leaves me on my knees praying to God that He gives me the hints I need when I need them in order to solve my own individual puzzle. Each of our individual puzzle section's are not exactly the same, but they all ultimately fit together into one giant, beautiful puzzle. I'm learning that the big puzzle is not meant for me to put together. That's God's job. I'm just supposed to work on my own little section and trust that God knows how to make it all fit together. I guess it comes down to a "little way" again doesn't it? I think I love literature because often a peek at someone else's section of the puzzle provides just the clue I needed to fit the next piece of my puzzle.
I love what Cindy wrote about relationships! (One of those peeks at someone else's section of the puzzle that gives me a clue for my own. )
I'm not completely on board with everything unschooling, but I can't express how beneficial exploring and adopting unschooling ideas on this Catholic forum has been for our family. I so desparately needed to take that step back and really just relax and connect with my family. I still need to do it even more. Reading things like HWG and the posts of all the women who seem to have a finger on the importance of that relationship just build up my abilities even more.
I am introverted, which doesn't always lend itself well to that relationship development. Comfortable interaction with people does not come easily to me - even with my own children. I know this must sound silly to someone who is naturally outgoing, but I can't be socially "on" all the time, even with my own family. That interaction is difficult for me, and I need to put a great deal of effort and energy into it to be successful. Often it leaves me physically drained. When I am overwhelmed with anxiety about homeschooling my study often overwhelms my efforts to build those relationships since my natural tendency is toward things rather than people. It is much more natural for me to study than it is to interact. The focus on relationship that is displayed by the unschoolers here is exactly what I need to keep from slipping into my comfort-zone and away from that more difficult, but also more important task of building relationships with my family. Many of the aspects of unschooling provide needed compensation to my natural tendencies.
I can truly see though, where unbridled unschooling might allow my introverted nature to run rampant. I can see where I could easily fall into that "child neglect" category of unschooling without the constant check of relationship. In order to gain the benefits of unschooling without falling prey to the downsides, I need to be vigilent about checking my tendency to focus on "things" (researching and thinking about methods) and making that constant effort to focus on "people"(those relationships). One is much easier for me than the other. The focus unschooling seems to take on this forum definitely guides me down the proper side of that line. It buoys me up in my difficulty rather than encouraging me in my vice. 
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Cindy
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Hi Richelle!
What a beautiful post. I want to read it again and ponder more, but a few things struck me I wanted to share:
Introverts are beautiful people! I recently read a book called The introvert advantage : how to thrive in an extrovert world /
by Laney, Marti Olsen that I really enjoyed. It explained how the world seems to value only those who are outgoing. But in the meantime the introverts are pondering and thinking and creating.... a crucial role. Plus, who would you usually want to open up to.. a thoughful listening introvert or an always-c hatty cathy? :)
Seriously, God created each of us with purpose and gifts. Maybe those who are more social have to work on *not* being 'on' all the time. We each have our own traits to work on... fine tune as needed.
Second thing I thought of-- the healing power of Eucharistic Adoration. As I read your desire to release the anxiety to the Lord, I thought of a prayer I read in a little adoration booklet- how we can throw all our worries, anxieties and burdens like pieces of straw into the the fire of the Divine Heart of Jesus.. and he will take them all on.. consume them and carry us. I am with you on this and am trying to remember to let him carry me through all my doubts.
The last thing was about the diversion between art and logic.. the desire to find the right answer. I just finished watching a Teaching Company lecture called The Sexiest Rectangle which explained the Golden Rectangle and how it is seen throughout nature and art. It was facinating.. even Claude Debussy used this ratio in composing The Afternoon of the Faun. It was the first time I ever saw that connection. It is from the lecture series The Joy of Thinking: The Beauty and Power of Classical Math. Ideas from the teaching company. www.teach12.com They have a lot of wonderful lectures for high school and college level.
This connection was important to me, b/c it again shows that things are not black and white, but interelated. Homeschool methods are not... but deal with relationships, as does art and math, personalities and people .... and faith.
Ok.. enough for this to- be- short post....
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Genevieve
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tovlo4801 wrote:
So where does that leave me in the search for a perfect method? I guess it leaves me on my knees praying to God that He gives me the hints I need when I need them in order to solve my own individual puzzle. Each of our individual puzzle section's are not exactly the same, but they all ultimately fit together into one giant, beautiful puzzle. I'm learning that the big puzzle is not meant for me to put together. That's God's job. I'm just supposed to work on my own little section and trust that God knows how to make it all fit together. I guess it comes down to a "little way" again doesn't it? I think I love literature because often a peek at someone else's section of the puzzle provides just the clue I needed to fit the next piece of my puzzle.
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I love what you say here. Perfection or what I usually describe it as responding to my vocation is tedious. For example, I tried a "little" exercise a few months back. It was a tree diagram of what I thought would be a well-rounded education. In the middle was God and it started with three branches - to know, to love, to serve. Then starting with the to know part, I reasoned that in order to know God, one needs to experience God either first hand through people and the environment (nature). One also needs tools to acquire knowledge that they would otherwise not come across naturally. This seems to fit the importance of 3Rs. Yet at the same time, these same tools can be used to serve God. I don't want to go into too much detail but I was amazed at first how so much was interlinked and also how much knowledge or quote subjects would be required for a well-rounded education (something that has been discussed in other threads). I couldn't fit everything I wanted onto a page, and that was when I realized in a tangible way how useless it is to believe perfection can be obtained.
Geez... I wasn't expecting to type so much. I guess you struck a chord with me. My weakness in perfection seems to come esepcially when I receive a catalog about all the things my kids are expected to know, or when I try to organize my learning centers.... it's unbelieveable how many learning centers I could dream up... thank goodness I live in a small townhouse! Good thinking on God's part! I think honestly that I need those shades that you put on horses to prevent them from getting distracted.
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tovlo4801
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Cindy wrote:
| I just finished watching a Teaching Company lecture called The Sexiest Rectangle which explained the Golden Rectangle and how it is seen throughout nature and art. ... It is from the lecture series The Joy of Thinking: The Beauty and Power of Classical Math. |
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I love the Teaching Company! I have The Joy of Thinking on hold at my library and I think I'm about 120 out of 200 on the list. I'm itching even more to see it after reading this.
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Willa
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I have been rereading Homeschooling with Gentleness and the second time around, I'm reading it with slightly different eyes. I wanted to point out her "Argument for Unschooling" on p 23, because I just skimmed it on the first reading and the second time, it jumped out at me:
Why Unschooling Makes Sense:
--What a child needs to learn (ie the 3Rs I suppose) is not hard in itself.
--A child has a natural ability and inclination to learn.
---A child also has a strong desire to imitate his parents: to know what they do and do what they do.
---A learner is the primary agent of his learning -- and acknowledging truth that avoids the danger of over-teaching or teaching things before the student is ready to learn.
These things are all said often, so often that I suppose my eye skipped over them the first reading, but I believe she supports them quite well with examples. Plus,
I've seen all these principles at work in my own homeschool. They ring true with me.
I suppose the main thing that stills worry me a bit is:
Granted that learning the 3Rs is not difficult, are the basic 3Rs "enough"? Catholics have a long honorable tradition of intellectual excellence, involving the study of Latin and Greek, logic and rhetoric, etc. While not every student can or should be a second Thomas Aquinas, isn't there a sort of heritage beyond reading, writing and 'rithetic that we owe some sort of responsibility to?
I think Suzy Andres answers this by saying that her unschooling way is a "little way" -- not that it CAN'T produce scholars, but that it will suit itself to the individual child and his circumstances and gifts. IOW, many unschooled kids DO end up at Stanford and Harvard etc, but that path isn't for everyone and unschooling doesn't guarantee that kind of results.
But then the methods that DO claim to equip every kid for Harvard certainly don't produce 100 percent results, and basically the blame ends up with the homeschooling parents for doing it "wrong" or the kids for being unmotivated and lazy or dullwitted, etc.
In other words, unschooling has a POTENTIAL to produce scholars, and so do other methods -- but none of the methods ASSURE those results, so unschooling is honest about acknowledging this as a good thing and gearing itself to the unique child. Plus, the world does need some Catholic scholars but mostly needs well-formed and informed Catholic laity, and that's a lot more reachable goal.
I can see that -- but I suppose I worry that this more "classical" form of education takes years and years of work. A child can't just start up in his high school years -- or maybe he or she can?? I don't know -- my father spent his first 8 school years or so mostly wasting his time in a small rural school, then went to a rigorous academically oriented high school and excelled, and went on from there. He could do that because he was intellectually gifted and also hard-working and eager to take advantage of his academic opportunities, and those aren't things that are acquired by years of drudging through intellectual labor -- it's a matter of capability, and desire/will.
Hmm, thanks for letting me think this out on screen -- I'd love any feedback.
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Willa
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Willa
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Oh, I think another way Suzy addresses the question about the 3Rs being "enough" is by her chapter on books as friends. A less bookish unschooler might address the question by pointing to community involvement, or historical re-enactments etc.
The 3Rs are "tools" for further exploration, but the "cultural heritage" part is addressed by exposing the child to, well, a cultural heritage. Whether books or whatever the parent WANTS his kids to grow up knowing and valuing -- those are the things that will be part of the family's life (hopefully).
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Willa
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Leonie
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Willa,
One thing I found wrt my older sons, was that a more scholarly education could be achieved at a later age, when the scholar had reached a certain level of maturity.
For some dc, a more rigorous education may be that which they are ready for at a young age. For others, even if a parent takes a more rigorous approach, the content and concepts don't get picked up by the child when young.
My older sons are academic now but not all were this way inclined at other stages of their growth.
John Holt wrote about learning music at a later age. He found that motivation and desire and time made it possible for him to progress, even though he had not learned music when young ( as is usually expected).
I think the same can apply to academics, to fitness, to many areas.
Sometimes, better late than early is right for a particular person and the passion/need/motivation allows that person to seemingly do the impossible - for example, to study and develop the processes and products of a classical education, within a different time frame.
I hope this makes sense. 
Leonie in Sydney
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tovlo4801
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Willa,
Interesting comments. Thanks for thinking on-line! I'm going to join you in the on-line thinking with perhaps not much coherency, so forgive me.
I've given a lot of thought to "rigorous, classical" education and unschooling over the past couple of years and I certainly don't have any answers. Yet I've got a lot of thoughts.
I did not receive a rigorous education myself, so perhaps I lack a true appreciation of it, but my limited experience led me to perceive it as something that needed to be force-fed to unwilling participants. It just began to seem so futile to me. It seemed I would spend years in battle with my children trying to force them to ingest this brilliant education while destroying my relationship with them and their desire to continue pursuing further education when the force-feeding stopped. Ultimately I questioned if the cost to reach the promised end was worth it. I also began to question if the the promised end was such a sure thing.
I really like the picture painted of unschooling here. It recognizes the need to achieve something and to have goals, but seems to recognize something that I just can't get away from. There is no one perfect way to get to our academic goals.
I like how Julie describes talking with her kids and basically saying what do you see as the best way to reach our Language Arts goals? There are people who believe the best way to truly achieve competence in Language Arts is to follow a structured format like Voyages in English. There are others who believe the best way to truly achieve competence in Language Arts is to read a variety of quality books, write frequently and do regular copywork/dictation. I guess I truly believe both produce good results.
Why not guide your children in making the decision about which of the many possible ways to achieve that end goal they'd like to take? Of course, you have to accept that there is more than one road to your destination in order to be on board with this.
I've had to come to terms with my own pride to accept unschooling. I will have to be willing to accept sometimes that a path my child wants to take won't match up with the way I'd prefer taking to reach that goal. I need to still take an active guide role and gently steer when the path will truly not get us to the goal, but I need to be open to the possibility that the way they'd like to go might be equally valid.
I truly believe that a child can be well-educated following a classical education as well as by following an unschooling path. I've been told too many times by too many people that seemingly polar opposite paths are the only way to truly achieve success. I guess I started to believe them all in a way. I think they all probably offer very valid ways to achieve academic success and the best one to take is the one that is best suited to our families needs. I've come to believe the best way to assess my families needs is with significant input from my children who are ultimately responsible for ownership of that education.
I've heard you say that you lean heavily in your understanding on the anchor of the past and I suppose unschooling doesn't have that weight of history to support it. I think this is where the fear often comes in. We don't have hundreds or thousands of years of experience to draw on showing that an education that allows the children to make many of the decisions with guidance and input from an adult can produce the same results that history has shown a rigorous classical education can produce.
Yet as you mentioned, recent history does suggest that unschooling can potentially grow children who eventually take on highly rigorous educations and it can potentially grow children who take on more humble roles. I am so glad that you also acknowledged that the same is true about classical education. I think that is a critical point. There isn't one guaranteed path to academic success.
I wouldn't want to limit my children's possibilities, but I also don't want to force them into a role they were not created to fill. Unschooling just seems to respect that truth more than anything else I've stumbled across.
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Willa
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tovlo4801 wrote:
I really like the picture painted of unschooling here. It recognizes the need to achieve something and to have goals, but seems to recognize something that I just can't get away from. There is no one perfect way to get to our academic goals. |
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Hi Richelle,
Thanks for commenting on my post. We come to homeschooling from quite different places, but we seem to think the same way. You so often put things into words that I can't quite articulate, but can relate to once they are out there on the screen...
The following are just my thoughts (confused ones...). I hesitate in a way to believe that there is more than one way to approach education. I believe that there are general principles for living, and that there are various "tools" to help accomplish those goals. Plus, different emphases can be present at different times.
Taking classical education, I think the focus is on the ideal, the ideal of what is best and most vital in human knowledge. It's a given that no one person will actually reach this perfectly. But striving for it induces humility and lots of other good qualities (at least, potentially, and that's what I'm talking about). Humility is a GOOD thing; Socrates thought the main benefit of his approach is that it required, and induced humility -- an acknowledgement that the quest is lifelong, will involve all our faculties and the goal will never quite be reached, though there IS constant progress.
But the concept that each person has something to offer is "implied" in classical education, I believe. The focus is on the ideal, but liberal arts is education for the "free man" and Christianity added the truth that we are ALL free men; that we all have different callings in life but that we share our humanness and that anything we are and do by our very nature, we can learn to be and do better.
Charlotte Mason brings this out a lot in her writings as well. We are ALL entitled to have our feet set in a "broad room" as she writes; it's not two tracks, one for the "slaves" who are merely trained to mechanical work, and another for the "free men" who can afford to focus on their humanity and pursue education "freely". We are all free men in God; it is our heritage, that He has given us.
The unschooling literature discusses some of these same truths, but in such different terms it is sometimes hard to recognize. The focus is on the individual there, and implicit is the idea of a goal. So there is the same balance in mind, but a different emphasis.
I fear loss of humility, and a radical subjectivism, if the focus is too much on the individual. I don't think the unschooling "philosophy" recognizes the danger enough, and some of the secular unschoolers actually embrace radical subjectivism and dismiss the cultural heritage altogether, and reach for a kind of complacency that dismisses any humility or acknowledgement of inadequacy. That's what bogs me down whenever I look at unschooling -- sometimes, the philosophical underpinnings ARE contradictory to what I believe to be true. I was just reading one of those types of articles yesterday -- ugh.
With classical education, also, the focus (this time on the ideal education) can get too fixed and the individual, in this case, can be forgotten or subsumed. There is a sort of radical "objectivism" that's always a heresy or danger in our Church and takes spiritual form in Jansenism, Phariseeism etc. I think you are right in saying that is in many ways a worse danger. People end up measuring "success" in narrow, legalistic terms and judging accordingly and forcing students through hoops.
It IS a danger but not as much of a danger for ME personally because of my background. I was sort of an unschooler at heart before they even existed formally. I did the minimum I could in school, kept my head down and my thoughts to myself, and saved my "real learning" for outside the classroom. So I have no problem in believing that unschooling "works", because it DID work in my own experience, I just have regrets about my arrogance and reflexive dismissal of authority. And sometimes I fear my own kids are different "types" and wouldn't learn as much as I did -- to be perfectly honest!
I think that a large part of education is fostering humility and a sense of awe and love. When we TRIED unschooling, I felt that the measure of everything for my kids and for me became too much, my KIDS. They were the standard of measurement, if you see what I am saying. If they didn't like something, or didn't want to do it, then that was the final court, the veto.
I see some of the products of unschooling, the grown kids, writing in those terms -- what suits ME, what *I* want to do with my life. I admire confidence and a can-do attitude, but it has to be subordinate, in my view. Of course, I am talking about teens and young adults here, so maybe that is just how that age group writes! I can't dismiss that possibility!
That's why I appreciate talking with all you with a Catholic unschooling approach, because I can see that this doesn't HAVE to be the way it is. I see you can unschool, focus on the kids, but avoid focusing on them in a navel-focusing way 
I see that in many of John Holt's writings as well. He talks about education as "access" -- letting children be part of the adult world, letting their lives and work and learning be real, letting them get away from the useless clutter associated with large scale, institutionalized education. Sort of like what Elizabeth was saying much earlier in this thread. Probably many homeschoolers instinctively work this way, and that's why many different approaches can actually "work", be effective, because they follow effective general principles even though the approach or "tools" may differ. Kids are adaptable -- they can grow up fine in many different types of households as long as they are respected and loved, challenged and encouraged, etc. Anyway, that's my tentative theory FWIW. 
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Willa
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Taffy
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I haven't been following this thread very closesly but these last two posts have made me think and I wanted to share ...
We are pretty eclectic here for all the reasons that Richelle and Willa have described. Unschooling sounds great - if it suits the teaching/learning style of teacher AND student. There are some things that dh and I insist our children learn - specifically, math, reading and writing. Dh is a high school teacher and has seen SO MANY students come into his classes with an insufficient amount of basic knowledge to handle higher math. It's not just a matter of being able to perform the algorithms correctly - one has to understand the point of solving equations and be able to use them to solve problems faced in real life.
I've visited the "LivingMath" Forum and showed the concepts to dh - he thinks it's dangerous territory for the following reasons. Not all students will be able to make the connections between using equations to solve real-life problems. In particular, when faced with higher math.
My own experience shows this to be true. I am a "math person" and was always the one who wound up helping classmates throughout school. I was often shocked by the strange ways that classmates would try and solve a problem. Frequently, there was an insufficient understanding in how to apply an equation to solve problems corrretly or adequately. Now, one may argue that students can figure out things like trigonmetry, the quadratic equation, etc. by reading living books and using it for construction projects, etc. But, often, when one is inclined to learn or use such things, one finds that without sufficient training in the "boring" concrete math, the harder math that they're trying to use is overwhelming.
I focussed on math just now because I often read posts from homeschoolers who are afraid of teaching it. It shouldn't be neglected. High school math is important in many trades (construction, plumbing, etc.) and other professions that even the non-college bound may want to pursue.
Regarding unschooling in language arts - I love the Bravewriter approach and need to implement more unschooling in our "lessons". But my oldest is autistic and his language is very behind for an 8-year-old. He has been read to A LOT. I haven't been able to even GET a simple narration from him for the longest time. A big part of his language difficulty is in organizing words in his mind so that he can retrieve the words that he wants and is trying to say. He needs the structured teaching to help him organize his own thoughts and I need the structured teaching in order to not continually frustrate him by asking him for more than he can give. I need it to organize my own thoughts and know where to focus.
Sorry if I'm not making much sense, just thinking out loud I guess. Willa, you made very excellent points about the need to keep a certain level of humility in the equation. And I really liked Richelle's thoughts about the focus being positive on what the student DOES know - not on trying to meet some artificial limit.
Maybe everyone should be eclectic? 
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Willa
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Taffy wrote:
He needs the structured teaching to help him organize his own thoughts and I need the structured teaching in order to not continually frustrate him by asking him for more than he can give. I need it to organize my own thoughts and know where to focus.
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Yes, it is a good point, Liz. I too have a special needs son (6yo, cp and developmental delays). Presently, he gets a long way with an unschooling type format. I find that building on his interests is our primary curriculum, but that he is agreeable to me slipping "short focused lessons" in there, whether physical or cognitive or occupational, and that these are "somewhat" helpful in building up his abilities in general. I need to see where his next step should go so I can help him get there but yet be patient and not expect him to be where he obviously is not yet.
But this is another area that seems to trip me up, when thinking about unschooling or education in general. A child can not learn what he is not developmentally ready to learn, and it is a waste of time and potentially harmful to force it ahead of time.
HOWEVER, environment is crucial here. A child brought up on a ranch will know all sorts of things about horses without effort that my kids (or I) simply don't know. Similarly, a child brought up in a musical household will probably be "ready" to play an instrument at an early age. But it is because of the environment that has been a preparatory "school" or unschool for that child.
Knowledge builds upon knowledge.
Aidan learned almost all the letter names when he was in a homebound Headstart program. The teacher was not coercive, she merely exposed him to any amount of "letter language" once a week through puzzles and games and books. I have let it drop because I taught all my kids by sounds, not letter names. He probably remembers 5 or 6 of them now, because he particularly liked the names or made some personal connection. The rest have faded from his memory.
But say that letter names WERE valuable for reading. The fact that he had that prerequisite knowledge would be a stepping stone to further knowledge. Without that "foundation" he would have a double agenda, double the ammount of things he had to learn before learning to read. It would be a more difficult, discouraging project.
Some moms seem to be naturals at "natural teaching", giving their kids that basic foundation of pre-academics. But I seem to approach it in a bookish way, where I need a plan and usually some type of curriculum to be a springboard, at least. I wonder, if you yourself and your kids sort of seem to benefit from that kind of approach, if you can still be an unschooler? just trying to figure this out, if unschooling is more of a "temperamental style preference" type thing or something else.
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Willa
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Taffy
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I agree with you a lot Willa, especially about some parents being better "natural teachers". I am finding that with my other children, we do a LOT more unschooling simply because it is so easy. I am still finding myself battling self-doubt due to all the emphasis on "qualified professionals" being so necessay for teaching a child with autism. I've learned otherwise over the years but I still can't seem to get rid of the self-doubt kwim?
The problem I face with my oldest is that he has a very difficult time making inferences and "connecting the dots". It's like he has a whole bunch of info floating around in his head but can't bring it to his mind when he needs it. I often have to put a LOT of effort into showing him relations. I think he has a hard time getting all of his senses to work cooperatively so he's easily confused.
That's why Bravewriter appeals to me so much. It gives me a framework of how to go about getting him to tell me what's on his mind. When he puts his own thoughts into words, the connections become so much easier to him. I find "language arts" much more difficult to teach than maths and sciences - I don't know the order of learning well enough to not ask too much too early.
DH doesn't have any problem with unschooling as a method of instruction. However (and we both agree on this) we feel that having a framework is necessary to ensure that there are no gaps in basic knowledge - reading, writing and arithmetic. Once a student masters the basics in these core subjects, they can self-teach so much more efficiently. In fact, we use a lot of unschooling in history, science, nature study, theology, literature, etc. I simply have a framework to help me know what to expose the kids to when.
I do have dull memories of doing drills and too much grammar. But, having learned it, I am grateful to have been taught it as it's so much easier to write intelligently and learning new concepts in maths and sciences is much easier htan it might be otherwise. And this is how the modern classical format appeals to me. I really think it's important to ensure that my dc have the tools they need to learn whatever they need to learn throughout life. Thus, that's the approach I use for the core subjects.
When I started out, I thought it was so important to subscribe to a certain methodology when teaching. I've learned since that there really is no "right" way. As long as my dc learn a love of learning and exploring their world, I'll know that we've been successful.
Hope I'm making sense... too much coffee today!
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tovlo4801
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WJFR wrote:
tovlo4801 wrote:
I really like the picture painted of unschooling here. It recognizes the need to achieve something and to have goals, but seems to recognize something that I just can't get away from. There is no one perfect way to get to our academic goals. |
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Hi Richelle,
Thanks for commenting on my post. We come to homeschooling from quite different places, but we seem to think the same way. |
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Willa,
Funny. That's probably true. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not unschooling yet. I'm still in a stage of idealism about it's potential for our family, so we'll see how it all works out.  You guys have been there and that experience deserves a great deal of respect.
I think it's interesting that when you've described the way school works in your home it seems to incorporate more child involvement than I currently provide. You seem to follow a classical spine, but allow your children choices in how to achieve those goals. I'm striving to get there and unschooling mentality seems to provide me the training to get there. (I need to stress that I don't really know what true unschooling is. When I talk about unschooling I'm talking about the kind the ladies here describe. I joined the big unschooling yahoo group for about three days and then dropped out because I wasn't comfortable with it. So what I'm attracted to probably isn't TRUE unschooling.) Anyway, it might just be that in the end we're headed for a similar place, but just coming from different directions. You may be naturally more flexible and seeking more structure for balance and I might be...well, a control-freak  an seeking for a way to give a little ownership to my kids.
I always appreciate your thoughts and experience. I feel so grateful to know all of you guys!
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Willa
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| I'm striving to get there and unschooling mentality seems to provide me the training to get there. |
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Richelle, yes -- I found that reading about a variety of "types" of homeschooling approaches helped me get a better balance through the years. It helped me see that there is more than one way to get the job done (there, see, perhaps I DO believe in a variety of approaches, though I think successful homeschoolers tend to recognize their own qualities and half-intuitively balance them out, as you pointed out). Also, a family's educational needs will change from year to year, perhaps, again in the name of balance. So if you feel things aren't going quite right at present, reading about unschooling might help validate trying a different way of thinking for a while.
I was thinking about one of my last hold-out objections to unschooling -- the ideal of a liberal education. It occurs to me that I don't think a broad liberal education is a discrete body of knowledge, ie Latin, x amount of history, x science labs etc. From all I've read, a "liberal" education befitting a "free man" not slave is an APPROACH to things. Cardinal Newman says it is a habit of seeing beyond the subject classifications to the connection and integrity of ALL knowledge. It is also a habit of moving from the particular to the universal -- a bit like contemplation, where you look at a tree or think about an event and see it as part of a bigger picture.
That seems to be at least potentially as effectively done with an unschooling approach as with a structured, subject by subject approach. But again, I suppose you could achieve that habit of mind by either path. I think it would be harder to "unschool" in a formal school situation, at least, it wasn't fully effective in the alternative junior high I went to -- and perhaps that's why unschooling is not really part of the Catholic educational tradition, though certainly there are plenty of examples of auto-didacts out there -- Abraham Lincoln and Benjamin Franklin are two that I can think of.
The Catholic tradition HAS always acknowledged that parents are uniquely fitted to educate their children and that "informal" methods are often more effective than "formal", so in that sense, unschooling has a venerable though not very thoroughly explicated heritage.
Anyway, my plan is to do a bit of experimenting this year -- I'm not going to call myself an unschooler, but I'm going to say that we're on sabbatical  . That lets us explore a bit without commiting completely, so it's in my comfort level.... we'll see how it goes. I'm not ready to desert my classical ideals, but I want to flex them a bit, especially since my present oldest homeschooler needs a different approach than my present graduate did.
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Willa
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Cay Gibson
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| I'm striving to get there and unschooling mentality seems to provide me the training to get there. |
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The unschooling mentality helps me to keep from stressing about our learning.
WJFR wrote:
| Anyway, my plan is to do a bit of experimenting this year -- I'm not going to call myself an unschooler, but I'm going to say that we're on sabbatical . That lets us explore a bit without commiting completely, so it's in my comfort level.... we'll see how it goes. |
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The whole point of having a set 9 AM-12 N tabletime calms me that we are doing the basic studies and all that it entails (whatever that might be). Calling our learning a very eclectic brew seems to gather all the theories, methods, and forms of education into one big book of learning, so I can tell myself "Yes, we're covering that. Yes, we've done that. Yes, my dc are getting that."
Peace of mind for mom. If mom's happy, everyone's happy. And, really, I think the term unschooling simply means that anything goes.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: Homeschooling with Gentleness
